TheMouth Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 My friend (he is really good at finding things like this out) pointed something out to me that I didnt really think of...he recently started playing BAs after I kept beating him and his razorspam army of Nilla-ness. Stormraven moves 12" DC Dread jumps out, with the min amount of base with in the 2" drop point. Fleets. Charges 6" Squishing begins. :D This is to cool, 3rd edition all over again? I cant find any other topic on this in the forum. Something just doesn't seem like that should be possible this time around...but i checked everything and it seems legit. Fleet from an assault vehicle , then assault...just seems to good to be true. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I reckon a first turn charge may work considering you rolled a 5 or 6 to reach your opponent either that it backfires and you've left yourself wide open to his army. The only thing is, if I remember correctly you need to be more than 24 inches away at the beginning of your first turn? I don't have my rulebook with me so I can't check. I'm pretty sure someone on here will correct me though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Totally fine and awesome :D :L The down sides are the dice-roll needed, the fact your opponent would have to set up out of cover as far forward possible and the points sink that'd be ripped to shreds by itself when it comes to your opponents turn :L I think it could work completely with some army builds but not all. Nice idea though :D @Vagabond, pitched battle deployment is 12 from the board edge (doesn't specify the distance between models, that only for infiltrators). Assuming the board is 4 foot deep it'd be totally acceptable in theory Malatox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm positive you need to setup more than 24 inches away from your opponent mate. I could be wrong though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 you would be setup 24" away, but nothing against moving way closer on turn 1. As far as Dice rolling to get there...I am thinking a 3+ should do the trick, but if you place with side armour on the line even a 1 will get you there. This is assuming that both models are on the line...24" apart. Place storm raven with side armour on the line...pivot, you now gain ( no model so guess-timate ) 3". You now have 21" between you and other model. Move 12", 9" gap between you and other model. 2" jump from transport, you now have 7". Fleet for ANYTHING,and assault 6". You have em. Just hope you dont have terrain to charge through, or land in or on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 if conditions are right....you could potentially have a 3" pivot + 12" move + 2" deployment +6" fleet +6" charge = 29" Charge...well in reality more like 28" charge range, taking into consideration that the base needs to be within the 2" deployment....can dark eldar even do this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Easy, Wyches in an open-topped Raider or Venom. Can assault from the vehicle + fleet is enough to break the 24" barrier. With the BAs it's pretty impractical and not particularly effective. - You have to go first. Or take a bad odds gamble you'll steal the initiative. - You have to be playing a favourable deployment type. Obviously 'Dawn of War' is a fail. - You have to deploy your Stormraven up front. 1/6 chance your opponent will steal the initiative. - Your opponent has to not be playing delayed deployment like pods, reserves. - Your opponent has to place an attractive target within range of a first turn assault. This is the biggest downside to trying to employ this as a meaningful tactic beause it's one that essentially requires your opponent's willing co-operation to put a juicy target within ~26 inches. - You most likely need to roll a reasonable fleet roll. - You might need to roll a successful Difficult Terrain roll to Assault. Even if you do all this, it doesn't carry the same sting as previous 'first turn assaults' in other editions because you can't consolidate from combat to combat nearly as well. Honestly there are more reliable and/or better ways to put pressure on your opponent first turn than attempting a close assault. Drop nasty units in in Pods. Use the Flamestorm Baal Pred. Blow chunks out of your opponent's force with big guns. Second turn assaulting is where it is at. Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, Vanguard, those pods you dropped first turn, even regular jumpers starting on the board can eat up a lot of ground first turn with a good run move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Fully agreed Mez, same things I pointed out to him, and he wants to run it in his ARD BOYZ list. I pointed out that the only real mission where you pretty much have a guarantee is the mission with the corners placement...since it seems someone always places a unit right at the 12" mark. Though my thing is, is the unit thats at the line worth the charge? Whatever you are charging with a dc dread will pretty much be dead that turn or the next...if its dead that turn you are just sitting out in the open, and will most likely get blasted. Not to mention how much closer the storm raven is now for potential melta gun shots, that had to wait a turn but now have you in shooting range...yes i know the double doesnt count but the s8 still does. To me its cool and fun, but the probability of getting it off...very very slim. He didnt like hearing that, but insisted it was awesome....I still dont get how throwing 300+ points right in the middle of my opponents army on turn one sounds like a good idea. But thats just me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 the base doesnt need to be wholy within 2" of the stormraven, so looking at the dread base youd get about 4" easy from the raven on a disembark move. pivot 3", move 12", disembark 4" assualt 6". thats 25" even before fleet. add a best result of a 6" fleet and you can assault anything up to 31" away on turn 1. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2616980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The best thing about this is not doing it, it is the fact you CAN do it ;-) Your opponent will be on the ropes from turn 1 if you deployed your Stormraven smart and in cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 meph tycho 15 dc 3 dc dreads 3 SR 150 points of toys/scorers 1850 Having all that deployed, chaffing at the bit at the forward edge of deployment might actually be fun. My only question is about fliers, stands, hull and deployment. Disembarkation occurs from the base, not the hull. Deployment is from the hull... isn't it? If that's the case, these numbers rely on the physical dimensions of the official model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pate Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't understand how you gain movement distance by pivoting? It's only pivoting on the spot, in other words, turning around your veichles mid point or in this case; the middle point of the dreads base, that doesn't count as moving. I can only see that you would gain "distance" by pivoting around a point that is outside that center of the base, say pivoting around a point that lies at the edge of your base. To me these would be a movement, and not a free pivot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient god Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't understand how you gain movement distance by pivoting? It's only pivoting on the spot, in other words, turning around your veichles mid point or in this case; the middle point of the dreads base, that doesn't count as moving. I can only see that you would gain "distance" by pivoting around a point that is outside that center of the base, say pivoting around a point that lies at the edge of your base. To me these would be a movement, and not a free pivot. 40K flyer bases are oblong, so by pivoting you can gain a couple of inches. But it's not exactly what I would call good sportsmanship... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Had a similar game last night. We got the game mode where you deploy up to half way across the board and only deploy a HQ and 2 troops, everything comes on as normal on 1st turn. My opponent zoomed Sammy and hos retinue to take my objctive counter. 1st turn and two stomravens turn up and unload a pair of dreads and 2 G squads next to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Why the emphasis on turn 1? Why not keep it in reserve and pull the same trick in turn 2 or 3 when you know your opponent will be further in? You still get the benefit of nearly painless delivery of a dread into close combat in one turn. The surprise is just icing on the cake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Why the emphasis on turn 1? Why not keep it in reserve and pull the same trick in turn 2 or 3 when you know your opponent will be further in? You still get the benefit of nearly painless delivery of a dread into close combat in one turn. The surprise is just icing on the cake. That's a bit my point too: The threat of this carries much further than turn 1. The turn 2 movement will be defined by it too, as will any turn until the payload is actually delivered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 why not scout bike this up? (We have those again right? I cant recall) Turbo Boost Scout 12" away. Move 11" so you're 1" away. Shoot. Assault 1". Thanks scouts! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pate Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't understand how you gain movement distance by pivoting? It's only pivoting on the spot, in other words, turning around your veichles mid point or in this case; the middle point of the dreads base, that doesn't count as moving. I can only see that you would gain "distance" by pivoting around a point that is outside that center of the base, say pivoting around a point that lies at the edge of your base. To me these would be a movement, and not a free pivot. 40K flyer bases are oblong, so by pivoting you can gain a couple of inches. But it's not exactly what I would call good sportsmanship... Aha, I see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2617826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korloth Darkwolf Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'm thinking of running a pair of them at 1500pts. A couple of the armies locally struggle against anything over rhino armour out of combat but are low power model heavy (lots of gaunts, boyz, etc). I thought about the following: Mephiston + DC dread(talons) in Stormraven 10 DC (no JP's) + Lemartes + DC dread (talons) in Stormraven Baal Pred and a bit of wargear Deploy to get the assault turn one and take the risk on them getting the initiave (as they have no real anti tank outside of combat). Scout move the Baal up to a decent target but outside of charge range (again in case they get initiative). Move the Ravens towards other targets 12" and disembark Mephistion and the two Dreads. Shoot as much as I can with the Baal and Ravens that isn't going to be assaulted by the others. Fleet the Dreads and Mephiston and then assault. I reckon with a good run on the talons and some decent shooting you could potentially wipe out up to 3-5 units in the first turn. Second turn the Raven with Lemartes (if the opposition haven't lucked out and taken it out) delivers the DC to another target while the Baal and other Raven start shooting at anything they can, whilst staying out of charge range if they can. Very particular circumstances and not very reliable but I could see it working against a couple of certain lists in my local gaming group. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2619328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 You guys are also forgetting that your opponent can move too! :D ...with all of the 'other' fast armies out there, going second, on turn 1 - can get you into assault with the right tools. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2619792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 You guys are also forgetting that your opponent can move too! :D ...with all of the 'other' fast armies out there, going second, on turn 1 - can get you into assault with the right tools. this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2619797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAJake Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 There are some ppl who have it right. 1st turn assaults (no matter what any1 thinks) are TOTALLY AWESOME!! But are they effective? Id say no.. generally you are outnumbered as marines. its always good to wittle away some enemy troops/vehicles before stranding a unit in the front lines. However I read somewhere on here that a guy used a 95 pt scout biker squad with a fist. that might be a adequate 1st turn assault. go Smack a tank and sadly enough you wont feel like your army is weakend because of their soon-to-be deaths Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219419-1st-turn-assaults/#findComment-2619813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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