new da faq: the end of the loganwing?

[Grey Mage]

Correct on all points Grey Mage (as usual :P ). The only thing I see people doing is talking about spamming TH/SS units, which limits them at range against nids, guard, orks and fast armies. They are concentrating on the parts of the FAQ which helps them most, making their lists one dimensionable and easy to plan for. Instead, they should be thinking about how they can use the "bump" to make their current lists better. Even with the FAQ, I still think our wolf guard lists are more flexible.

 

BTW, take heart Ladislao. We can do everything they can, and look cooler doing it. ;)

 

 

~fearlessgod~

Well exactly- I mean sure, a TH+SS army sounds tough as nails... until you throw 180 orks at it... for your first wave. Theyre a tough unit, but theyre far from indestructable and going at I 1 is going to cost you sooner or later.

 

In fact, that was as I recall one of the DA forums larger complaints- many felt that our standard weapon being a power weapon was actually very much in our advantage.

 

I think those who start converting alot of TH+SS guys are going to regret it pretty soon.

 

Bjorn. Because Bjorn is made of awesome.

What data and mind draining scientific calculations went into that one!?!!? ;) (but I totally agree).

Id like to explain it but the formulas for that level of quantum physics are difficult to display in a type format. If youll just have your tech servitor download the following datapack it should contain everything you need on the third sublevel:

[Vassakov]

Its nice to see the DA get some love, just a shame it's taken this long to sort it out for them.

 

As it stands, I think I'd probably have to say that Deathwing is probably now more competative than a SW "Pure" TDA force. Remember, they can teleport and get half their squads in T1 if they like. That's not to be sniffed at at all.

 

On the other hand, Wolf Guard remain far more flexible than... well, I'd go as far as to say other unit in the game. We pay for it, but by the God Emperor are they awesome.

 

Disclaimer: I have 30+ TDA Wolves, including a Lord, Rune Priest, Wolf Priest and 2 Lone Wolves. I may be biased.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

End of the Wolfwing? No, those who played with Logan and his elite guard will still do so.

Those who just used his rules to represent Belial and the Dark Angels' first company after the Space Marine Codex rendered them overpriced and underpowered will switch back to their own codex, as they should.

Greenwing and Ravenwing are still underpowered compared to Codex Marines, but Deathwing and Dualwing are definitely competitive again.

[littlbitz]

As a long time SW player, and a DeathWing player, I for one am very happy about the updates for both BT and DA.

 

Its long over due, this DOES NOT make our Codex any less powerful, it simply brings a couple of long out-dated books back on par with the newer Codices.

 

Others have mentioned all of the important points on book vs. book so I will not bother to beat a dead horse, lets just say that I agree with GreyMage whole heartily in this matter.

 

Its an update that should have been done years ago.

[Starkhan Fellblade]

We should be happy for our brother space marines. They can now be more effective against the foes of the imperium. It will make them harder to defeat, but that will not stop me from playing them and it should not stop you ether. We're The Rout!!!!!!!!

 

Starkhan

[Wispy]

Um... but our base terminators are cheaper and more flexible. Plus Logan is much more effective then Belial.

 

Wolf Guard armies > Logan Wing, enemies. Going DA style terminator armies with Logan is trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.

 

Sorry OP, I will have to maintain that the DA still have a bit of a short end of the stick. Still it's nice that GW updated their wargear to be a little more competitive.

[breng77]

Sorry OP, I will have to maintain that the DA still have a bit of a short end of the stick. Still it's nice that GW updated their wargear to be a little more competitive.

 

 

not for an all terminator army, which is what I think we are comparing. Sure Logan is better than Belial, he is also about twice as expensive as well. Plus in order to use the flexibility of WG termies, you end up paying around the same number of points (if you want things other than straight PWs.) Scoring fearless termies are also better at holding objectives than non fearless ones. The DA build is quite a bit more durable with free upgrades to TH/SS (something WG pay more for). Now if you want to talk mixing PA and TDA, I think the WG army is probably more effective due to higher model count, and better supporting units.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

Time to be overrun by a horde of 25 Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Deathwing Terminators.

 

I played this today when Stormbrow decided to test it. I had my measly 40 RAS w/ 2 libs, 3 priests and a vanguard against 25 termies all with Hmmer/Shield + 1 Cyclone each + 5 Landspeeders with Typhoon Missiles + Melta + Raider.

 

It was a ridiculous game. with the speederspumping out 15 Str 8 shots at range + the 10 Cyclone shots its and with 3++ its quite a hard army now.

[Brom MKIV]

I played this today when Stormbrow decided to test it. I had my measly 40 RAS w/ 2 libs, 3 priests and a vanguard against 25 termies all with Hmmer/Shield + 1 Cyclone each + 5 Landspeeders with Typhoon Missiles + Melta + Raider.

 

That is a rediculous list indeed, and I would hope that most dark angels players will avoid such a boring linear list. Its a small consolation but that list is illegal anyway as we can only take one typhoon per fast attack slot. Once the shinyness wears off and the metagame adjusts to consider wing armies again I think these armies wont be quite as common. Personally I have no intention of ever spamming nothing but th/ss. Cheers.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I would say one or two thunder hammers in each squad to fob the AP2 shots off on, but generally Deathwing rely on weakening the enemy at range before giving them an Imperial Fisting. One all thunder hammer squad with Belial and the apothecary/standard bearer as the Dark Angels' "rock" unit but otherwise either 5 men with a thunder hammer and cyclone, or 5 men with a thunder hammer and assault cannon (or using the Black Reach terminators I've accumulated, 5 men with an assault cannon).

[Darkseer]

My regular opponent has swapped out 1 of his regular Deathwing Terminator squads for:

 

Belial with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Apothecary with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

4 guys with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

 

He hasn't bothered with the Cyclone Missile Launcher, because these guys will continuously run forward until they get into combat.

 

They have a 2+ save, a 3+ invulnerable save and thanks to the Apothecary they also have FEEL NO PAIN

 

Quite a tough (and cheap!) unit to get rid of.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Looking at Darkseer's post I can see that unit being used a lot - and putting it in a LR is going to make it REAL hard to kill. I agree it is good to see DW armies more competitive now, the changes make sense and bring things like SS up to date with everyone else.

 

I have to say though, the 2+, 3++ and feel no pain has got me worried. OK, so ML will ignore FNP, but they get a 2+ save on them. LC ignore FNP, but they will still get 3+ save (and they are expensive). Even the mighty plasma cannons (normally the nadir of termies) are going to struggle, as they still get 3++ and FNP will be active. Bolters (as someone said on this post) need a LOT of numbers to do much damage (rough calc 3 packs of GH shooting one termie unit gives 60 shots. 40 hit. 20 wound. 3 dead.) That's not too bad, but that's one hell of a lot of focussed fire.

 

Putting them in a LR means you have to pop it before they reach you (otherwise you cannot focus any bolter fire on them). Realistically this means meltas / meltabombs. Being that close means that the unit which popped the LR is going to be charged by the termies inside it - which is likely to then get wiped out.

 

Personally along with this discussion on Wolfwing vs Deathwing, I'd like to hear some views on how to tackle these blighters with "normal" Space Wolf armies.

 

H.D.L.

[Grey Mage]

No... it wont. Plasma is AP 2, wich cuts right through FNP.

 

Seriously... if your like me and bring atleast 2 plasmahunter packs to any serious engagement then you have nothing to fear from some new storm shields.

 

You want to pop his landraider transports? Well do it like any other landraider.... with lascannons at range or some close range melta. Its got a cargo of kick-ass TH+SS Terminators? Well when we do it to C:SM the chances are that they have such a unit inside their raider too.... you dont fold then do you?

 

No. You support your units, and once that raider is blown you hit the one-time occupants with a nice fresh plasma bolt or seven. Then youve either wiped them out or you keep hitting them....

 

All this does is make deathwing more resilient against small arms fire- something many of us were already dealing with against blood angel assault terminators. The DA version are just a hair more flexable, and a single unit is going to be tougher and stronger. Just one.

 

Its not that big of a problem. The sky is not falling. Life goes on, and we win anyways.

[Wysten]

I played this today when Stormbrow decided to test it. I had my measly 40 RAS w/ 2 libs, 3 priests and a vanguard against 25 termies all with Hmmer/Shield + 1 Cyclone each + 5 Landspeeders with Typhoon Missiles + Melta + Raider.

 

That is a rediculous list indeed, and I would hope that most dark angels players will avoid such a boring linear list. Its a small consolation but that list is illegal anyway as we can only take one typhoon per fast attack slot. Once the shinyness wears off and the metagame adjusts to consider wing armies again I think these armies wont be quite as common. Personally I have no intention of ever spamming nothing but th/ss. Cheers.

 

I expect the opperset, expect them to field the hard list and plan for it, if your going to a tourney, then I would always expect the hardes list due to humanitys in built desire to win. Hence we must do the same during any serious occation.

 

Personally, depends. This army can put out enough supressing fire, win melee combat but can it crack truely tough armour and really outgun a list? Time will tell.

 

 

Land Speeders are interesting though, they can't take them in squads? I've only come about in the 5th ed so it's new to me.

 

Pretty sure the Long Fangs with Cyclone Wolf Guard could offer an advantage in a shooting war, just melee is the real issue. DA's Fearless really comes into it's own when it's fighting over objectives with such tough troops. Best solution i can think of is to use Thunder Wolf to add further support for melee combat, since they can outpace DA and get the hard support for the Wolf Guard exactly where it's needed. Plus striking before them all the time is bound to take it's toll. Just a matter of weathering their fire enough to ensure we come together hard.

 

 

Standard wolves have fantastic shooting anyway, just as said, got to focus our efforts on one formation at a time, in a list with no obivous weaknesses, best to focus fire and make one.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Good points as always Grey Mage. I have little experience with most other armies (never played C:SM), so I am keen to learn. Clearly backup is very important, and really you need to pop that LR with missile rather than combat because you need to shoot its contents as much as possible before they assault you.

 

From a basics point of view, I would assume rapid shooting the daylights out of TH termies and waiting for them to assault you is a better option than using pistols and assaulting them .... but of course this may be incorrect.

 

I'm certainly not saying this faq has overpowered DW, far from it. I am just wondering how to deal with the bleeders ;)

[nurglez]

unlikely to pop the landraider with missiles (unless you have logan giving them tank hunters) :P

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

I've taken the chance against TH termies many times and just assaulted them with hunters. I go first, and most of those times I either wiped them out or killed off enough that the hammering didn't hurt too badly and I win in the end anyway. Sometimes you take a risk and get rewarded, and other times you get beaten for it.

[Captain Idaho]

Never thought I'd see the day a Space Wolf was jealous of a Dark Angel! :P

 

I echo the ever reasoned and intelligent posts of the mods on this forum; Space Wolves didn't get worse because Dark Angels got slightly better.

 

As for those Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator army? Well sheer amount of saves hurts them and Thunder Wolves are still nasty against them. Don't worry!

 

I'd be interested to face such a list with my own. My Honour Guard enjoy killing Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators :)

[Decoy]

Just played a game against 'em last night. Aside from the HUGE tactical errors I made (Drunk beyond all recognition and using my Long Fangs as ablative wounds to my Grey Hunters), the new DA isn't any harder to beat. 2+/3++ is crap against plasma and massed fire, and they still die -far- too easy to a well-kitted Wolf Lord. If anything, I found these ones easier to slaughter just because of DA overconfidence. The poor guy thought his army was damned near invincible. Poor lil' guy. :P

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

Just played a game against 'em last night. Aside from the HUGE tactical errors I made (Drunk beyond all recognition and using my Long Fangs as ablative wounds to my Grey Hunters), the new DA isn't any harder to beat. 2+/3++ is crap against plasma and massed fire, and they still die -far- too easy to a well-kitted Wolf Lord. If anything, I found these ones easier to slaughter just because of DA overconfidence. The poor guy thought his army was damned near invincible. Poor lil' guy. :devil:

 

Awesome! I've actually been banned from drinking while playing amongst my local group. It's not that I get sloppy and start knocking things over or making mistakes...it's actually quite the opposite. I enter a state of focus and actually play a little better. That lasts for a while until I go beyond the realm of drunken focus and into the realm of drunken stupor.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I've taken the chance against TH termies many times and just assaulted them with hunters. I go first, and most of those times I either wiped them out or killed off enough that the hammering didn't hurt too badly and I win in the end anyway. Sometimes you take a risk and get rewarded, and other times you get beaten for it.

 

Well that's certainly nice to hear. I assume you assault with more than 1 pack at a time? Again, doing some rough maths, 1GH pack with motw, standard and WG with pf (as an example of a decently tooled out pack) are going to do the following in assault ... (I'll be generous with the rolls because of the standard)

9 pistol attacks - 4 hit, 2 wound. (I'll group these with the normal assaults to make it easier to estimate how many will save)

24 normal attacks. 12hit, 6 wound.

(so that's 8 normal saves, 1 dead.)

5 MotW attacks (average). 3 hit, (let's say he gets 1 wound which is a rend)

3 pf attacks - 2 hit, 2 wound.

So that's 3 "no save" attacks, so with 3++ lets say 1 dead.

 

So that's 2 termies dead before they get to attack .... actually that's a bit better than I thought it would be. (I realise my maths is far from exacting in that example). Interesting though ...

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

The math behind it is always nice to have in the back of your head, but I usually don't over-think it. While there's a chance that none of them end up dead before swinging, it could also happen that the dice gods curse my opponent and all or nearly all of them die before ever getting to swing. When I total up the points of those terminators and compare that to what I spent on the grey hunters, I relish the opportunity to "kill a dollar with fifty cents", so to speak.

[Decoy]

Good phrase, WLH. I'll have to use that in my D&D game today. "Kill a dollar with fifty cents."

[Stormbrow II]

Its a small consolation but that list is illegal anyway as we can only take one typhoon per fast attack slot.

Yeah it is illegal. It was fun though, and I'd definitely recommend running 3 of those 75 point Typhoons - they're a bargain. The FA section is probably the biggest problem for Deathraven lists though as you'll have to decide between how many bike squads and how many Typhoons you want.

 

Personally I have no intention of ever spamming nothing but th/ss.

Well, bully for you.

[nurglez]

Just a quick thought, But if they are taking 5 TH/SS termies, even with a cyclone, thats a squad of 5 with 4 guys the same and 1 who's different, thus making them unable to do the wound allocation fun that WG termies can do. I don't aim to do this, but I do generally end up with at least 3 different models in a 5 man terminator squad, if not 5 different ones. if they receive 20 bolter shots and fail 4 on the 4 TH/SS guys, thats 4 of them dead...