New FAQ's out

[postal105]

pomts?

Power of the Machine Spirit

[Valerian]

pomts?

 

Power of the Machine Spirit. See my post up above.

 

V

[MaveriK]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

Agreed! although I've always just went with the definition of outflank in its entirely, when OBEL was put into question.

out·flank (out-flhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifngkhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif) tr.v. out·flanked, out·flank·ing, out·flanks

1. To maneuver around and behind the flank of (an opposing force).

2. To gain a tactical advantage over (a competitor, for example).

[Decoy]

I've got a LOT of folk to show this to. Specifically, the solidification of S10 Thunderwolves, some Jaws stuff, and Lone Wolves in Land Raiders moving at Ramming Speed. (Seriously. Three Rhinos/Land Raiders speeding along, with a Lone Wolf inside, waiting for their vehicle to blow up thanks to a DoG attack? Yes please.)

 

 

Quickedit: This just goes to show you that Dakkadakka gets EVERYTHING wrong in "You Make Da Call." Lawlz.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

If anyone is listenning at GW, I'd still like to see a ruling on the number of Typhoon Land Speeders you can have in a squad

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Quickedit: This just goes to show you that Dakkadakka gets EVERYTHING wrong in "You Make Da Call." Lawlz.

 

Oh be nice. They get lots of stuff right. Do you see how many newbies ask really simple questions on there? I am a relative newb myself, but I find I can answer a surprising amount of questions.

 

Of course, when the issue is contentious, yes I agree, there are often many headscratcher type arguments over there. If you ever want your eyes to bleed, look up the longest dakka "discussion" on whether storm caller allows vehicles to take and use the 5+ cover save. :)

[TiguriusX]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

Agreed! although I've always just went with the definition of outflank in its entirely, when OBEL was put into question.

out·flank (out-flhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifngkhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif) tr.v. out·flanked, out·flank·ing, out·flanks

1. To maneuver around and behind the flank of (an opposing force).

2. To gain a tactical advantage over (a competitor, for example).

 

Are you pulling my leg with this or is it a serious argument?

[dragon950]

And Ragnar still nerfed...

 

But Arjac making the enemy with Init 1, it's FRAKING AWESOME!!!

 

Ran

 

How is ragnar still nerfed?

[Coverfire]

Q. When every model in a Wolf Guard Pack has been split

up to lead other packs does/can the enemy score a Kill

Point for that unit? (p86)

A. No.

 

Always did this one wrong. I thought that if my opponent killed all the wolf guard that it would count as a victory point.

 

Q. Does a model armed with two frost blades/axes get +2

to their Strength? (p57)

A. No.

 

YAY hopefully we'll stop seeing this question.

 

Q. Is a model that has suffered an unsaved wound, but

hasnʼt been killed, from Arjac throwing his Foehammer

reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the next player turn?

(p51)

A. Yes.

 

!!! Wow... I never saw that coming. I expected it not to count as a thunder hammer when thrown.

 

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living

Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the

player going second? (p53)

A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where

the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is

yet to rage.

 

Had hoped that it might have been altered.

[Wildfire]

Some very interesting rulings in there. Arjac, for one, just became significantly better. Also the ruling on when WG squads are piecemealed out.

 

Quickedit: This just goes to show you that Dakkadakka gets EVERYTHING wrong in "You Make Da Call." Lawlz.

 

It's not a question of right or wrong. The whole point of a FAQ is to clarify the designers intent. There are any number of FAQ rulings that quite clearly contradict RAW. Or rather, they change RAW to match up with the designers RAI. That doesn't mean that anyone was wrong for going by RAW before. On the contrary in the absence of a FAQ spelling out the designers intentions, one should go with RAW as default (unless, of course, a change is mandated by a TO or both players agree).

[little brother]

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living

Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the

player going second? (p53)

A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where

the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is

yet to rage.

 

Had hoped that it might have been altered.

 

So did I.

 

How many other characters, troop types, powers or rules are there which get nerfed if you go second? Imagine if thunder hammers did not stun your opponent if you went second.

 

I know it is a contrivance having alternating turns in a wargame because things can't be done simultaneously but you don't have a similar rule in chess where the black player's king is handicapped and can only move horizontally, vertically, but not diagonally like the white king.

 

"the tempest has yet to rage"? What a load of nonsense!

 

I don't play DOW but I bet the librarian doesn't loose some of his psychic powers in half the games because, "the tempest is yet to rage."

 

Why could they not have just changed their clumsy phrasing, like they have with so many other FAQed things, to affecting the opponent in the next phase of movement or shooting?

[Hfran Morkai]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to start a huge distraction discussion but OBEL is not the same as OUTFLANK. The interaction of these rules and an IC is the main issue that needs to be FAQed.

 

 

Only units in the Wikd dex that "truly" outflank (as in by the letter) are Characters with Saga of the Hunter, the Wolf Scouts don't have the option to carry out a typical Outflank move, making it fairly clear in my mind that they can make use of Behind Enemy Lines

[TiguriusX]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to start a huge distraction discussion but OBEL is not the same as OUTFLANK. The interaction of these rules and an IC is the main issue that needs to be FAQed.

 

 

Only units in the Wikd dex that "truly" outflank (as in by the letter) are Characters with Saga of the Hunter, the Wolf Scouts don't have the option to carry out a typical Outflank move, making it fairly clear in my mind that they can make use of Behind Enemy Lines

 

Why don't scouts have the option to carry out a typical outflank? If the OBEL rule is nullified they still have a basic outflank via their INFILTRATE special rule.

 

Maybe OBEL behaves like HEADSTRONG and the presence of an IC nullifies the rule. Maybe it works more like FIRE CONTROL and the addition of an IC has no impact.

 

Using the BRB as a guide maybe joining an IC to a Wolf Scout unit has the potential to nullify the OBEL special rule in the same way that it nullifies the ability to use the INFILTRATE rule during deployment. The wolf scouts still have the rule but can't actually use it.

 

The rule and FAQ leave something to be desired.

[Grey Mage]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to start a huge distraction discussion but OBEL is not the same as OUTFLANK. The interaction of these rules and an IC is the main issue that needs to be FAQed.

 

 

Only units in the Wikd dex that "truly" outflank (as in by the letter) are Characters with Saga of the Hunter, the Wolf Scouts don't have the option to carry out a typical Outflank move, making it fairly clear in my mind that they can make use of Behind Enemy Lines

*blinks* Im sorry but you must be confused.

 

Wolf Scouts Outflank. Period. Its what the deployment method they use is called.

 

Their special rule, OBEL, doesnt change that. What OBEL does is change the chart you roll on. Thats all....

 

Kind of like how BAs deep striking using their jump packs only scatter 1d6, but are still deep striking.

[Vassakov]

They still haven't touched OBEL for IC though...

 

I think they spell it out very clearly that an IC can outflank together with Scouts (Specifically mentioned this time), if they have Saga of the Hunter or another rule that gives outflank.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to start a huge distraction discussion but OBEL is not the same as OUTFLANK. The interaction of these rules and an IC is the main issue that needs to be FAQed.

 

 

Only units in the Wikd dex that "truly" outflank (as in by the letter) are Characters with Saga of the Hunter, the Wolf Scouts don't have the option to carry out a typical Outflank move, making it fairly clear in my mind that they can make use of Behind Enemy Lines

*blinks* Im sorry but you must be confused.

 

Wolf Scouts Outflank. Period. Its what the deployment method they use is called.

 

Their special rule, OBEL, doesnt change that. What OBEL does is change the chart you roll on. Thats all....

 

Kind of like how BAs deep striking using their jump packs only scatter 1d6, but are still deep striking.

 

Grey Mage is right. The FAQ clears up the problems with OBEL and IC's - if it has Saga of the Hunter it can join them and utilise the special rules, if Saga of the Hunter isn't bought then either he doesn't join them or they don't OBEL/Infiltrate etc. OBEL is a modification to the Outflank rule, rather than a Special Rule in and of itself, so Hunter + Scouts = Pain. :rolleyes:

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Grey Mage is right. The FAQ clears up the problems with OBEL and IC's - if it has Saga of the Hunter it can join them and utilise the special rules, if Saga of the Hunter isn't bought then either he doesn't join them or they don't OBEL/Infiltrate etc. OBEL is a modification to the Outflank rule, rather than a Special Rule in and of itself, so Hunter + Scouts = Pain. ;)

 

I approve of this message. :P

 

That's clearly the thinking of GW, the intent, even if technically the Rules As Written might point to another answer.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

POTMS= Power Of The Machine Spirit

 

Bah! I was far too slow...

[Ulfhedinn]

*blinks* Im sorry but you must be confused.

 

Wolf Scouts Outflank. Period. Its what the deployment method they use is called.

 

Their special rule, OBEL, doesnt change that. What OBEL does is change the chart you roll on. Thats all....

 

Kind of like how BAs deep striking using their jump packs only scatter 1d6, but are still deep striking.

 

I have never used Wolf Scouts so please bear with me…

 

Wolf Scouts get: Infiltrate, Scout, and Behind Enemy Lines (Outflank)

 

IC with SotH gets: Outflank and Stealth

 

FAQ gives them together: Outflank and Stealth

 

Am I making the correct assumption from everything that the IC(SotH)+Scouts=(Scouts loosing Infiltrate and Scout)?

[ORKILL]

*blinks* Im sorry but you must be confused.

 

Wolf Scouts Outflank. Period. Its what the deployment method they use is called.

 

Their special rule, OBEL, doesnt change that. What OBEL does is change the chart you roll on. Thats all....

 

Kind of like how BAs deep striking using their jump packs only scatter 1d6, but are still deep striking.

 

I have never used Wolf Scouts so please bear with me…

 

Wolf Scouts get: Infiltrate, Scout, and Behind Enemy Lines (Outflank)

 

IC with SotH gets: Outflank and Stealth

 

FAQ gives them together: Outflank and Stealth

 

Am I making the correct assumption from everything that the IC(SotH)+Scouts=(Scouts loosing Infiltrate and Scout)?

 

They still get Outflank and Stealth. The question is do they get Behind Enemy Lines. Locally the answer is no. :P

[wolfpack]

oh joy...now I need to go find more stuff to drive them crazy...maybe we'll get another FAQ update if I hurry again....

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

*blinks* Im sorry but you must be confused.

 

Wolf Scouts Outflank. Period. Its what the deployment method they use is called.

 

Their special rule, OBEL, doesnt change that. What OBEL does is change the chart you roll on. Thats all....

 

Kind of like how BAs deep striking using their jump packs only scatter 1d6, but are still deep striking.

 

Sorry GM, but this is not the only interpretation and it is a little harsh to call the brother confused.

 

WS can both outflank and BEL. The first by virtue of the scout special rule, the second is a specified special rule in C:SW, p. 27.

 

If the use BEL then they use the chart on C:SW, p. 27, if they outflank then they use the one on RB, p. 94.

 

The FAQ allows a character with the Sage of the Hunter to outflank, but does not give them the BEL special rule. I believe that there is an argument that there is a difference as shown above.

 

The FAQ also says on p. 5 that WGPL can join WS as they are not IPs. It indicates that for ICs not having the scout and infiltrate special rules is the issue. However, Hunter does not provide scout, just infiltrate and outflank. So even with a wide interpretation, a degree of ambiguity remains.

 

As it stands RAW, I believe that the IC either with WS or on their own, cannot enter from the opponent's table edge, but only the sides as per the outflank rule on RB, p. 94.

 

Regards,

[Decoy]

Good points, Durfast. However, they hinge on one thing: The IC needing BEL in order to USE BEL.

 

When a unit of Wolf Scouts Outflanks, it can only Outflank so long as it retains the Outflank rule. This much makes sense, is redundant, and is generally accepted. This can be done with an IC with Mark of the Hunter, or all by their lonesome. We now have a checklist to make.

 

Do the Scouts have Outflank? (Yes, checkmark!)

Do any attached ICs have Outflank? (Yes, in this case. Checkmark!)

 

Therefore, the Scouts may Outflank. This is not in debate.

 

BEL is not a "Rule" in anything but the loosest definition of the word. It is an alternative of an existing rule, a modification of the rules, similar to Errata. Behind Enemy Lines states (paraphrasing) that "WHEN the unit of Wolf Scouts Outflanks..." Here is the crux of the issue.

 

Is the Scout unit plus Hunter IC suddenly NOT a Scout unit? If I recall correctly, an IC, when joined to a unit, becomes a part of the unit, subject to all unit-based attacks, rules, et cetera, et cetera. For all intents and purposes, that unit of Wolf Scouts is still a unit of Wolf Scouts, and it happens to contain an IC. Therefore, they may use their BEL -alternative- rules for infiltration. These are inclusive (as 40K tends to me) in the use of ICs to BEL, as if I remember correctly, the Scout unit does not spontaneously change to Khorne Berzerkers when an IC is attached. BEL is not a Universal Special Rule, to be taken away if the IC does not have it. Indeed, there is no such rule that specifies what happens in this particular scenario. Therefore, thanks to the inclusive nature of the rulesset at hand, the Wolf Scouts (and their tagalong) are able to Outflank using the alternative rolling chart that the Wolf Scouts provide.

 

Any Non-SW that still has the fluffs to argue that probably just got violated too many times by Wolf Scouts and is trying to use your naivety to their own advantage. Give 'em hell.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

BEL is not a "Rule" in anything but the loosest definition of the word. It is an alternative of an existing rule, a modification of the rules, similar to Errata. Behind Enemy Lines states (paraphrasing) that "WHEN the unit of Wolf Scouts Outflanks..." Here is the crux of the issue.

 

Is the Scout unit plus Hunter IC suddenly NOT a Scout unit? If I recall correctly, an IC, when joined to a unit, becomes a part of the unit, subject to all unit-based attacks, rules, et cetera, et cetera. For all intents and purposes, that unit of Wolf Scouts is still a unit of Wolf Scouts, and it happens to contain an IC. Therefore, they may use their BEL -alternative- rules for infiltration. These are inclusive (as 40K tends to me) in the use of ICs to BEL, as if I remember correctly, the Scout unit does not spontaneously change to Khorne Berzerkers when an IC is attached. BEL is not a Universal Special Rule, to be taken away if the IC does not have it. Indeed, there is no such rule that specifies what happens in this particular scenario. Therefore, thanks to the inclusive nature of the rulesset at hand, the Wolf Scouts (and their tagalong) are able to Outflank using the alternative rolling chart that the Wolf Scouts provide.

 

Hi Decoy,

 

Whilst not a universal special rule, BEL is a special rule as it is listed under that heading on C:SW, p. 27.

 

The problem is not that the IC stops the WS from being WS, but that by being with them the WSs are no longer able to enjoy their unique BEL special rule.

 

So you cannot, for example, put Grimnar or Ragnar with WS and appear on turn two up the enemy's chuff. This is reinforced by the existence of the Sage of the Hunter as it allows an IC to join WS and for them to outflank. I appreciate the points you make and would like to agree. Unfortunately the new FAQ still leaves room for interpretation. They need for have written BEL rather than outflank for it to have been beyond doubt.

 

Shame they didn't bother to read this forum and clearly identify the issues before issuing another half baked FAQ ...

 

Regards,

[Decoy]

Aye, Durfast, I grant that BEL is indeed a Special Rule. I decided to get off my hungover ass and get my dex. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it, so I'm no better off. :)

 

I understand where you're coming from, and I thought the same as you did for a fairly long while. I argued out my :devil: to prove exactly what you're trying to prove now. :) However, there is nothing that explicitly states that BEL is lost when a character joins the unit. It is not marked (as other special rules are) to negate the BEL if joined by a character that doesn't have it, and the likely reason for this is that BEL ONLY operates when the unit is Outflanking. If Wolf Scouts (whether attached with an IC or not) Outflank, there is no choice: They roll on the BEL chart. -IF- the WS are joined by an IC that -doesn't- have Outflank, BEL cannot be used, because BEL hinges on the ability to Outflank. It is a self-regulating rule in that Wolf Scouts+IC can Outflank (and therefore BEL) by simple virtue of having the ability to Outflank.

 

Although I definitely need more coffee or booze to continue talking on this. Back in a few.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Fair one mucker - hope the night before the morning after was a good one ;)