combat squads and reserves

[dswanick]

he doens't want to understand, he's right, we are wrong, nothing else really matters.

 

I think you are right brother.

 

Untrue. Once deployed the unit is no longer in reserve but it has been placed in reserve previously and the rule mentions no combat squads for units placed in reserve, and not only while they are kept in reserve, the rule is for the whole game, because it lacks any duration.

However, your argument hinges on the idea that "the lack of a time limit on the action" = "there is no time limit", and this is the same idea that leads people to believe that Sanguine Sword last forever once it is successfully cast. Good luck with that logic.

[Plague Angel]

Hmmm well neither argument has swayed me one way or the other. Sort of leaves you in a what do we do now state ?

Talk with your opponent, then roll off for it.

 

On a 1-3, deep-strikers can Combat Squad.

 

On a 4-6, they can't.

[Wildfire]

Untrue. Once deployed the unit is no longer in reserve but it has been placed in reserve previously and the rule mentions no combat squads for units placed in reserve, and not only while they are kept in reserve, the rule is for the whole game, because it lacks any duration.

 

I don't agree with what you believe the rule is stating. However, for the sake of argument, let us say you are right. Just the fact that a unit has been placed in reserve prevents combat squadding during deployment, because no upper limit has been set on how long the restriction lasts. Am I correct?

 

By this logic, you could say that once you place a squad it reserve it may never be combat squadded again, even in future games. And I don't think you're trying to say that. Unless you are, it seems to me you are arbitrarily limiting the duration of the restriction in direct opposition to your interpretation of the rules.

 

The correct answer, as always in the event of any possible disagreement over the rules, is to speak to the TO or your opponent before grabbing your models.

[Plague Angel]

Let's not start accusing people of slippery slope fallacies, now. That's just straw-manning, so we're getting two fallacies for the price of one.

 

I've already said my opinion. I'm confident in it, and for now I have nothing to add. But if there's still disagreement, we'll never come to a consensus by putting words in others' mouths and claiming they're saying things they're not.

[Grey Mage]

FAQ > BRB

 

 

That's completely false.

 

"The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'. They are, of course, useful when you play a pick-up game against someone you don't know, or at tournaments (i.e. when you don't have a set of common 'house rules' with the other player). However, if you disagree with some answers and prefer to change them in your games and make your own house rules with your friends, that's fine. In fact we encourage you to shape the game around your needs and your taste. We firmly believe that wargaming is about two (or more!) people creating a gaming experience they are both going to enjoy. In other words, you might prefer to skip the FAQs altogether and instead always apply the good old 'roll a dice' rule whenever you meet a problematic situation."

 

FAQs are a far sight better than just going with our guts. They are soft, but theyre also universal.

 

Now, as for deep-strikers combat squading. We know for a fact that C:SM can, the codex tells us so. C:SW doesnt have Combat Squads. C:BA we also know can combat squad when they come in as their codex says so.

 

C:BT doesnt have combat squads. C:DA does... and lets see here.

 

Dark Angels illustrate the need for C:SM to state in the DP section that they are capable of combat squading as they disembark. Why is this?

 

Well, that would be because they are deploying IN a transport. Only one unit is allowed in a transport, and thus.... they must be one unit at the time they are deployed. Thus without special dispensation they must remain one unit as they were unable to combat squad at the time they deployed.

 

So where my friends is the confusion and the need for all this strife?

 

Ah, because it says this in C:BAs FAQ aswell... I see.

 

Well, lets dissect this further then.

 

 

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat

squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the

Drop Pod? (p32)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not

break down into combat squads.

 

So, something is placed in reserve when it is off the board waiting to come into the game using the reserves rules. Is it still placed in reserves when it is deployed?

 

No. We do not continue rolling for them at this point. We no longer refer to them as reserves. They are in no way in reserves when they are on the battlefield/tapletop/carpet. So, since this 'squad' is no longer 'placed in reserve' this ruling would no longer apply to it. The rather straightforward wordings in C:SM and C:BA state quite specificly what to do now that they are deploying, and again- once they are past deploying they cannot change this choice because they cannot be in such a state as to trigger the rule again.

 

So.... those 3 marine codices that can combat squad can do so when they come into play, 2 of them can do so from DPs, 1 of them hasnt trained to do that for some inane reason.

 

So, are we good?

[JamesI]

I'll accept GM's answer here, though I think this is something that could still cause problems as not everyone will interpret it that way.

[WarpWalker]

GW's answer may take some time. We've (blood angels) have been using this tactic for almost a year now. And if you are right about the changes. It taken them a year to fix it? What!? I'm surprised they are still in business. If I ran my business that I'd be unemployed.

 

I've talked it over with some friends from my shop. They can see the logic here. So it's back to gaming as usual. It's Saturday after all.

I'm not concerned with this anymore. You shouldn't be either. Go out and play. B)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With the exception of Marines in a drop pod the squad has to combat squad at the beginning of the game during the initial deployment. Grey Mage what you are in effect saying it that any deepstrking squad works the same as a unit in a drop pod which is not the case. The FAQ clearly tells us that a unit held in reserve cannot combat squad - nothing changes when they arrive from reserve except for units in drop pods. What you have presented is a reach around so that people can continue to play as they have in the past. The FAQ will need to be further clarified to cover your interpretation.

 

G :rolleyes:

[Grey Mage]

With the exception of Marines in a drop pod the squad has to combat squad at the beginning of the game during the initial deployment. Grey Mage what you are in effect saying it that any deepstrking squad works the same as a unit in a drop pod which is not the case. The FAQ clearly tells us that a unit held in reserve cannot combat squad - nothing changes when they arrive from reserve except for units in drop pods. What you have presented is a reach around so that people can continue to play as they have in the past. The FAQ will need to be further clarified to cover your interpretation.

 

G :rolleyes:

Not at all.

 

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat

squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the

Drop Pod? (p32)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not

break down into combat squads.

 

You say that this is an indefinite state- once they are placed in reserve they are always placed in reserve. This is not the case.

 

The wording required to support your interpretation is "No, because squads that have been placed in reserve".... wich would be ambiguous.... or "No, because squads that were placed in reserves". The lack of a past tense means that the unit must be currently placed in reserves- its a restriction of using the present tense.

 

Something that is on the table is not 'placed in reserves' its that simple.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We will just have to agree to disagree. The only people I see arguing on your side is people playing biker armies and jump infantry armies. I think the FAQ is very clear. Overall looking at other big forums the consensus is quite clear to me.

 

G :rolleyes:

[Grey Mage]

We will just have to agree to disagree. The only people I see arguing on your side is people playing biker armies and jump infantry armies. I think the FAQ is very clear. Overall looking at other big forums the consensus is quite clear to me.

 

G :rolleyes:

I dont play a biker army, or a jump infantry army. In fact, I rarely even use C:SM so this is a moot point for me. Who is saying it isnt half as important as whats being said right now.

 

And right now all Im getting from your arguments is that because its been FAQd you feel something must have changed. When you can bring forth something solid, something concrete, please do so. The burden of proof is generally on the person who wants the status quo changed.

 

In the mean time people can ignore the details of the english language on other forums. We generally end up cleaning up their messes anyways.

[Brother Weasel]

The only people I see arguing on your side is people playing biker armies and jump infantry armies. I think the FAQ is very clear. Overall looking at other big forums the consensus is quite clear to me.

 

G ;)

 

and me, who plays neither, i don't do reserves nor do i do combat squads:) the result means nothing to me except understanding a rule.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

All the FAQ states is that a unit in reserve cannot combat squad. It doesn't state you can combat squad when they arrive from reserve and are deployed.

 

G ;)

[SeattleDV8]

Black Orange, your look on the FAQ is what the rule was in 4th ed.

Units placed in reserve could never Combat Squad, this is no longer the case.

By Errata (which means the Codex is changed) the Dark Angel rule stateing this was removed.

If ,like you think, the idea is to stop units combat squading when coming in from reserve then why would they change the Codex?

The fact is they wouldn't.

 

You combat squad when deployed.

BRB pg.94 ".....player may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

 

Being put in reserve is not deploying, therefore you may not combat squad then.

 

When the unit(s) roll to come in from reserve.

BRB pg. 94 "... the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.

It is at this point the unit is allowed to Combat Squad.

[Grey Mage]

All the FAQ states is that a unit in reserve cannot combat squad. It doesn't state you can combat squad when they arrive from reserve and are deployed.

 

G ;)

It doesnt have to. The codex already says that.

 

.... so since its not talking about when the unit arrives, the question must not be regarding the process of deployment, eh? That restricts it, once again, to the time in wich a unit is held in reserves- exactly as it says.

 

Seattle has even better illustrated this point.

[captain Mungo]

All the FAQ states is that a unit in reserve cannot combat squad. It doesn't state you can combat squad when they arrive from reserve and are deployed.

 

G ;)

I believe GreyMage hit the mark earlier. This seems to be the consensus in the Swedish 40k community as well. The FAQ doesn't state the above because it doesn't have to, it's already in the rulebook and codex in clear text.

 

The FAQ address that you can't combat squad units in reserve and roll for them separately or only deploy one of the squads.

 

This gives rise to new issues though. Take a 10man tactical and a razorback arriving from reserve:

• How do you roll for them? One roll for razor and one for tacs? One roll for both?
  
• Can the tacs at all deploy inside the razorback?
  

[Grey Mage]

Your questions are better answered in opposite order:

 

2) No, because they cannot fit inside it.

1) Because they cant be inside the transport they are seperate units and must be rolled for seperately.

[captain Mungo]

Your questions are better answered in opposite order:

 

2) No, because they cannot fit inside it.

1) Because they cant be inside the transport they are seperate units and must be rolled for seperately.

That's my take as well, but say they both arrive same turn, are you allowed to embark one squad? I vaguely recall the rulebook stating you deploy one unit at a time.

 

Luckily I rarely reserve much in my Mech army cause they just got a whole lot worse at it. :)

[Grey Mage]

You could.... deploy the razorback, then the squad, combat squading, and have one squad embark.

[captain Mungo]

Yeah but that shortens the Razor's move from 18" to maybe 10ish for all to be within 2" of the back hatch. What I meant was could a squad embark before either unit is moved, but if I recalled correctly they can't, right?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

G :)

[Grey Mage]

Yeah but that shortens the Razor's move from 18" to maybe 10ish for all to be within 2" of the back hatch. What I meant was could a squad embark before either unit is moved, but if I recalled correctly they can't, right?

Youd be correct.

 

Like I said we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

G :)

Im not feeling agreeable today I must admit. So *waves* buh-bye then. Feel free to return with evidence at any time. You cannot simply say 'well I dont think so' and have it carry any weight alone.

[Brother Theophantus]

It does seem that this topic has decended into pointless headbutting.

 

First of all the drop pod rule is there because its the only vehicle a 10 man unit can deploy on the board in then split into 2 5-man squads. You can't start the game INSIDE a rhino or landraider and either jump out as 2 squads or have it move 12 inches or whatever then jump out as 2 units. You can do this in a drop pod.

 

Secondly the ruling clearly states that units IN reserve cannot combat squad. Once they hit the table they are no longer IN reserve. Otherwise they wouldn't be shooting your guys and taking objectives would they? If the intention was that units that had been held in reserve couldn't combat squad the rule would read;

 

Units that have been held in reserve may not combat squad.

 

or something similar. The rule uses the present tense not the past tense. Therefore only units currently held in reserve and therefore not on the table are barred from combat squading.

 

Think about it guys. Does the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces prevent you from ever smoking again after you've been in a pub once? No, it only prevents you smoking IN the pub.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am going to check the rule for combat squads and see what it exactly has to say about when you can declare a squad is being split. If someone wants to quote it that would be helpful.

 

Edit - Okay I read the rules for combat squad in the codex. I don't see why GW would have put the much hated statement in the new FAQ unless they meant to prevent units held in reserve from breaking into combat squads. It is what it is and they can fix it if that was not their intent.

 

G :P

[tahrikmili]

You say that this is an indefinite state- once they are placed in reserve they are always placed in reserve. This is not the case.

 

NO.

 

Just NO.

 

What we are saying is that once they are placed in reserve, they can not be combat squadded, not that they are always placed in reserve.

 

Once the unit is deployed from reserve, it is no longer placed in reserve.

 

But ONCE and WHEN it has been placed in reserve at the beginning of the game, it has been deemed 'unable to deploy as combat squads' indefinitely.

 

So basically, once you put the unit in reserve, REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO WITH IT FOR THE REST OF THE GAME, it can not deply as combat squads.

 

Don't put words in anybody's mouth.