Are the Blood Angels really a dying chapter?

[Code 187]

Just been reading the 'Mephiston - What's up with him' thread and it got me thinking.

The BA are said to live a lot longer than other marines, in Dante's case he's chalked up 1100ish and is still going strong. They may eventually fall to the black rage but are often going to live out longer lives than the average marine even if they do eventually end up as DC.

The new BA dex states they are a dying chapter.

Why is this when (assuming they recruit at the same rate as other chapters) their marines will potentially far outlive other space marines?

I suppose being long lived doesn't help when you're as likely to die in battle as the next marine but still.

Thoughts?

[Tamwulf]

Well, let's see. It's widely known amongst the Space Marines that the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst and that they eventually succumb to the Black Rage. Oh, and that they have an executioner that travels the galaxy killing any Blood Angels that go too far into the Black Rage.

 

The typical Blood Angel Space Marine is going to either fall in battle, or fall to the Black Rage, in which case he will join the suicide squad aka Death Company or a Chaplain is gonna put him down like a rabid dog.

 

Not to mention their penchant for drinking blood... which, even among the Space Marines that is a bit out there.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i don't have my codex with me, but some where in the 'dex i know it specifically states that battle brothers are falling to the black rage more and more every year/recruit drive/what ever, and that's why.

 

now should we worry about it? no. the game's storyline isn't going to progress any farther than it already has (or at least very little...) same goes with the emperor and his throne.

[Chairman_woo]

Short answer: Yes

 

Long answer: The flaw gets worse with every passing generation even amongst the Blood Angels themselves who controll it better than most of their sucessors. Each time the sanguinary preisthood inducts a new member (as they must from time to time) the "living blood of the primarch" becomes alittle more diluted, and the proscess of essanguination (activating the geneseed with said "primarchs living blood") becomes that tiny bit more likely to warp the geneseed a little further. Concequently as time passes, the average brother becomes more and more likely to succumb to the rage or the thirst, either more strongly or at a earlier age (or both).

At this point the degeneration is so strong and so well documented in the chapters history that the priesthood & reclusiaim can predict a day when their geneseed will become unviable as a means of populating an active space marine chapter (as has already tangibly started to happen with the flesh tearers). And unless something drastic were to change, that the Blood Angels would certainly not be around forever.

 

They may live longer but their attrition rate is atleast as high (if not higher) than most chapters. The average marine will die in battle (be it in black or red armour) and being able to live longer will make little difference to that. You may get older veterens, but they are always very much in the minority as with any chapter. The

 

Chapter is dieing insofar as it is known to be ultimately unsutainable, which coupled with the Martyr attitude the chapter learned from their daddy probbably means the BA will jump on the first suitably epic exuse/final battle to sacrifice themselves nobley for "Teh Emprah" and end their legend with grace and tangible benefit (thinking something really epic, as hinted at in Dante's fluff).

 

 

This wont effect your game however as GW is very very unlikely to take the fluff past year 40,999 (where it is currently frozen for everyone) anytime soon.

[Plague Angel]

To say nothing of that huge battle with Ka'Bandha that's going on, potentially wiping out the BA and all of us successors, too.

 

Except the Lamenters, oddly enough. When the fluff stops is when they finally catch a break, apparently. Unless something even worse is keeping them away, which is possible.

[Tabgoi]

From what I had heard there is supposed to be a turn around of sorts happening in the fairly near future. The death of the Emperor on his throne signaling a movement from a post modern setting to more of a modern one. It was not made known if that would be a return of Primarchs, elevation of the Emperor to something beyond a man, or the Emperor undergoing a rebirth similar to the one of the what 200 priests of sorts who had the ability to reincarnate who made a pact, commited mass ritual suicide and put all their energy into reincarnating all of themselfs into a single individual, thus creating the Emperor. I mean realistically they set the stage long ago for the Emperor to be reborn if he was ever freed of the Golden Throne which is more of a prison holding his spirit in place then it is a machine preserving his life force.

 

The long and the short of it is, it is unlikely Gamesworkshop is going to do away with the Blood Angels and their successors. Too much time and energy has been put into their background and miniature line, and it is too big of a segment of the Space Marine population, as well as being a very outspoken segment of it. Personally I don't think they will take it to a full modern setting where humanity flourishes and it is all happy and joyfull, that would destroy the whole atmosphere of the game. But at some point they have to provide a ray of hope, even one of a small magnitude, or have the full final collapse of humanity as a power amongst the stars. There are just not that many more setbacks they can give humanity before its survival become unlikely. There are several Primarchs who are lost and never verified as killed. In addition you have some like Gulliman who is held in stasis, dying, but not truely dead. They left a lot of things open to give humanity a bit of a chance.

[Tabgoi]

Messed up a bit, it was shamans, and thousands of them sacrificed themselves to create the Emperor.

[Wysten]

As much as I wish it would advance beyond that point into new territory, I doubt it will ever happen. The univercal shift at the death of one of their greatest leaders would require a lot of writen fluff and work to really pull it off. I am one of those who believe that once he dies, the path will be much rougher.

 

Theres no question that BA will fall to it's flaw someday, many of it's successors are being crippled and BA itself is feeling the strain more then ever, external and intinal the real question is, will we be around to see it happen? What will happen if Dante died on the eve of that great battle? Could the chapter get past losing such a noble, long living leader?

 

I have no shadow of doubt that Sanginious died that day, hence the chance of his return in a grimdark univerce is unlikely, any aid for the Blood Angels would have to be external or internal. The question is not if, but indeed, when, and whether when is a point we will see.

[Tabgoi]

What was it, the vaults of Pandrax where the Eldar prevented the BAs from accessing information that Brother Corbulo thought could lead to a cure. The Eldar are known for despising humanity because humanity has in many ways taken their previous place of dominance. But they see humans as a tool to be manipulated. At this point it could eb too dangerous to allow the Blood Angels to be cure of their flaw as this would lead to an increase in the entire Legion's Successors strength, especially considering their long lives. They could always provide the needed information when they thought that the increased survivability of teh BA and their successors would be neccessary to prevent the lose of a tool they can use against more pressing enemies.

 

I am with you on Sanguinus being dead btw, I am just saying, they left a LOT of things up in the air that could lead to a rebirth using plot lines they left open from the very begining. If anyone remembers Battle Tech, FASA was a master of this. The way they set up the Star League's Exudus and put in the Wolf's Dragoons early on in the inner sphere as a merc unit, and only a decade later pulled in the clans an revealed Wolf's Dragoons to be a scouting/intelligence unit for them as one example. I am not saying Gamesworkshop is going to do the same thing, just that they left it open so they could if they chose to.

[Vodunius]

This is what makes the Flesh Tearers so cool: they are what the Blood Angels would be like if the script writer wasn't on their side :rolleyes:

[ashen]

I would really like to see the fluff of 40k advance, lets face it, if you have played the game for longer than a few years there are only so many battles that you can fight set at the end of the 40th millenium. It would be great to play battles set in a future setting. though I would definately not want the "grim darkness" fluff to go, its what makes 40k so interesting.

I agree about the survivability of the BA, in monetary terms they are a huge seller for GW and I dont think they would ever let the Angels of Death die. I would actually like to see some ray of hope for the chapter emerge, in whatever way that may eventuate.

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

Aren't the Blood Angels succumbing to the Black Rage in a much faster rate? But when you look at Mephiston (who overcame the Black Rage) and the fact that the Lamenters claim to have a cure I don't think the Blood Angels are really dying...

[Plague Angel]

I would really like to see the fluff of 40k advance, lets face it, if you have played the game for longer than a few years there are only so many battles that you can fight set at the end of the 40th millenium.

 

Why only play at the end?? I say, recreate old famous battles! Make custom rules for Captain Aphael and team up with an Ork player to fight over Forge World Antax! Play the Badab War campaign that was just released! Do a scenario mission for the final battle of the Flesh Eaters — perhaps with an all-Death Company list? It's been 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy — that's a lot of history to play around in!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

One thing that is never mentioned, which I find interesting, is geneseed.

 

Can the geneseed of a marine who has fallen to the black rage be harvested and used? If for some reason that geneseed can not be used then the BA ARE a dying Chapter as more marines fall to the rage, less geneseed is available to replace them.

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

I would really like to see the fluff of 40k advance, lets face it, if you have played the game for longer than a few years there are only so many battles that you can fight set at the end of the 40th millenium.

 

Why only play at the end?? I say, recreate old famous battles! Make custom rules for Captain Aphael and team up with an Ork player to fight over Forge World Antax! Play the Badab War campaign that was just released! Do a scenario mission for the final battle of the Flesh Eaters — perhaps with an all-Death Company list? It's been 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy — that's a lot of history to play around in!

 

I totally agree ^_^ I'm planning on making a pre-heresy army as well (with a Sanguinor painted as Sanguinius) so me and my friends can recreate the Horus Heresy -_-

[Code 187]

One thing that is never mentioned, which I find interesting, is geneseed.

 

Can the geneseed of a marine who has fallen to the black rage be harvested and used? If for some reason that geneseed can not be used then the BA ARE a dying Chapter as more marines fall to the rage, less geneseed is available to replace them.

 

I can't think of this ever being mentioned anywhere (not that I'm that well read in 40k lore) but it would seem that they would have to be able to. It would be a lot of geneseed for a chapter to lose and still survive given how many fall to the rage.

[Plague Angel]

One thing that is never mentioned, which I find interesting, is geneseed.

 

Can the geneseed of a marine who has fallen to the black rage be harvested and used? If for some reason that geneseed can not be used then the BA ARE a dying Chapter as more marines fall to the rage, less geneseed is available to replace them.

 

I can't think of this ever being mentioned anywhere (not that I'm that well read in 40k lore) but it would seem that they would have to be able to. It would be a lot of geneseed for a chapter to lose and still survive given how many fall to the rage.

 

Gene-seed is always zealously and carefully screened for mutation, and the Blood Angels have been trying to breed the Flaw out of themselves for a long time. I can't imagine the Blood Angels would purposefully harvest gene-seed that is confirmed to be mutated — they'd want gene-seed from those who were able to resist the Flaw, to hopefully pass that resistance on.

 

Though I'm sure that to some successors who have taken a more embracing stance of the Flaw, such as the Blood Drinkers or Angels Encarmine or my own Host Incarnadine.

[Hengist Ironfang]

My own personal continuation of the fluff is my excuse to use the heresy era army i am building atm useable in normal 40k, My BA company got lost in the warp during the cleansing and have just been spat back out, to them it has only been a few decades since the siege and the pain of sanguinius' loss is still great among them, however they take hope as they have walked beside the primarch and their gene seed is purer as hasnt degenerated over 10000 years of reproduction, fresh gene stocks would at least buy the Angels more time and may even result in the working of a cure.

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

My own personal continuation of the fluff is my excuse to use the heresy era army i am building atm useable in normal 40k, My BA company got lost in the warp during the cleansing and have just been spat back out, to them it has only been a few decades since the siege and the pain of sanguinius' loss is still great among them, however they take hope as they have walked beside the primarch and their gene seed is purer as hasnt degenerated over 10000 years of reproduction, fresh gene stocks would at least buy the Angels more time and may even result in the working of a cure.

 

That's a really good background.... I was thinking of making a pre-heresy army of Blood Angels as well... I just couldn't figure how to use them against "new" enemies like Nids...

[Tabgoi]

I like the concept. Due to the vagueries of the warp its completely possible. The Inquisition would want to run a full investigation first to check for taint, but once you clear you'd be good to go. Plus the tales you'd be able to tell would be great for chapter morale. Not to mention the wargear that was available at the time that can no longer be made or the lost knowledge. It is overall a very cool concept.

[vonny]

To say nothing of that huge battle with Ka'Bandha that's going on, potentially wiping out the BA and all of us successors, too.

 

Except the Lamenters, oddly enough. When the fluff stops is when they finally catch a break, apparently. Unless something even worse is keeping them away, which is possible.

 

well, about that, I had some theory.

 

As found in the chaos codex on page 57, the badab war didn't end until 912.M41, after which the surviving lamenters have been forced to undertake a 100 year penitant crusade. In our codex, the call towards the successor chapters to help out on Baal vs both Ka'Bandha and a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan is done at 999.M41. This means the lamenter still need 13 years of crusading before their sentence, and they are too honourable to forsake their duty, of course.

 

So in 012.M42, while the Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Angels Sanguine and all those others are beseiged and hanging on by a thread, the Lamenter strike force comes to the rescue! They lure the tyranids over to the Daemons who wink out of existance due to the shadow in the warp, and being the anvil upon which the other chapters can rally and strike as the hammer, destroying the tyranid fleet tendril, and the day has been saved!

 

Of course, knowing the bad luck of the Lamenters, this won't be done without the destruction of Baal and both its moons, most of the successor chapters (including themselves), and of course making the original blood angels chapter one big genestealer infestation/cult...