JotWW question

[Ikken]

so i was reading a bug forum and the topic came up regarding JotWW . apparently a bug player tried to protect one of his monstrous creatures by putting the model in the upper floor of a building . would this work .

with JotWW you draw a line and any model the line touches doe its Int check , but what if the model is on a level above the line ?

with template weapons it is clear you have to pick the level the weapon hits . how does this work with JotWW ?

The rune priest can certainly target a model on a higher level , but can he target models on 2 levels at once ? one on ground level , one on the 2nd level of a building ?

 

I thought i would put it out there and ask so i would have an answer incase it ever comes up in a game .

[postal105]

i would have to say the elevation on the model does not matter as the rule states draw a line the line is only a hair with wide but it does not state how tall it is so their for you can assume that it is infinitely tall as it is not a template so to say.

[Jaton666]

If the earth opened up under a building i would say it will effect all floors of the building equally (probably even make the building fall down)

I think it should affect the bug, it now just has further to fall to its doom.

[Starkhan Fellblade]

How did he get his monstrous creature in a building in the first place?

 

@ OP JOTWW would affect him/her/it regardless.

 

 

Starkhan

[ORKILL]

How did he get his monstrous creature in a building in the first place?

 

 

 

Starkhan

 

 

That's what I thought.....?

[stinkenheim]

I would say no, the rules say it is placed along the table top, so if the model is not on ground level I don't think it would get hit.

[Frontline989]

I would agree with Stink though I don't think a monstrous creature should he able to enter buildings either.

[Ranwulf]

The MC was at the top of a building or a ruin? Those are two different things.

 

Ran

[DV8]

Remember that the Monstrous Creature has to physically be able to fit on the upper tiers of a building or ruins. If the model can't physically fit there, no amount of interpretation will allow any player to simply "pretend" that the monster is on the roof of a high rise.

 

That being said, yes Jaws of the World Wolf specifically says along the table top. Any model above ground level cannot be affected by this power (it is a chasm opening up in the ground after all.)

 

 

DV8

[dswanick]

so i was reading a bug forum and the topic came up regarding JotWW . apparently a bug player tried to protect one of his monstrous creatures by putting the model in the upper floor of a building . would this work .

with JotWW you draw a line and any model the line touches doe its Int check , but what if the model is on a level above the line ?

with template weapons it is clear you have to pick the level the weapon hits . how does this work with JotWW ?

The rune priest can certainly target a model on a higher level , but can he target models on 2 levels at once ? one on ground level , one on the 2nd level of a building ?

 

I thought i would put it out there and ask so i would have an answer incase it ever comes up in a game .

It would not work as described, because MCs can not enter buidlings. MCs can enter ruins, however. Is that what they are promoting? If so, then yes an MC in a ruin should work just fine for the reason Stinkenheim mentioned.

[Spacefrisian]

Yep Stinkenheim is spot on, but the reverse is also true in regards to those bugs that come from underneath and that can hurt you, eg if you are higher than table level you are save.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Remember that the Monstrous Creature has to physically be able to fit on the upper tiers of a building or ruins. If the model can't physically fit there, no amount of interpretation will allow any player to simply "pretend" that the monster is on the roof of a high rise.

 

That being said, yes Jaws of the World Wolf specifically says along the table top. Any model above ground level cannot be affected by this power (it is a chasm opening up in the ground after all.)

 

 

DV8

 

 

The FAQ states that jet bikes can be hit by the JotWW, so models above ground level can be affected by this power.

 

It is a line not a cord and stated to be hairline - hairline means thin but not necessarily shallow.

 

Imagine the ruins shaking and the model falling from its lofty perch down into the chasm.

[stinkenheim]

Simple, fluff based answer to the jetbike point is that anti grav plates are designed to keep the vehicle a set distance above the ground, if the ground suddenly drops away the vehicle also drops. In the case of jaws, if the chasm suddenly appears beneath them then their anti grav plates can't keep them aloft they plumit into it.

 

The argument about it being a hairs width but infinitely high is a lot weaker than the RAW argument about it only affecting models on ground level.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Simple, fluff based answer to the jetbike point is that anti grav plates are designed to keep the vehicle a set distance above the ground, if the ground suddenly drops away the vehicle also drops. In the case of jaws, if the chasm suddenly appears beneath them then their anti grav plates can't keep them aloft they plumit into it.

 

Unlike your ruins that manage to float above the chasm with the MC balancing precariously on some girder or other ;) :P ;)

 

The argument about it being a hairs width but infinitely high is a lot weaker than the RAW argument about it only affecting models on ground level.

 

Weak or strong, the counter argument about MCs in ruins is ... err ... in ruins ;)

[DV8]

Durast, that kind of inference doesn't work. That it affects jetbikes does not mean it will affect models that are above ground level.

 

Jaws, per the Codex, specifically states that you draw the line along the table. You can try and interpret that any way you want, but it makes no reference to the line cutting diagonally across the air, or jetting up along terrain. It moves along the table (that is, directly on top, touching) and any models it touches (that is, models directly on the ground floor) are affected. Period.

 

 

DV8

[Spacefrisian]

Points at jumpinfantry for the in the air part and wonders why they arent affected.

[Wildfire]

This is another one with two schools of thought on the answer. Best to talk it over with your opponents first.

 

I will say that I (personally, and with no authority in the slightest) think it is probably intended to affect units in buildings. It all depends on how you define "tabletop". I define it as including the terrain surfaces, others do not. However, as Jaws is potentially nasty enough, and since most non-SW players are so fearful of it, I would have no problems limiting it to the ground level of objects in most games. I would probably talk to the TO prior to a tourney to determine how the rule is to be played.

 

In any case, for the benefit of RAW arguments I will point out that a line has only one dimension: length. People who are trying to say it extends infinitely into the air are actually describing a plane, not a line.

[Hear da Lamentation]

LOL - are we playing the same guy?

 

I (Foolishly) mentioned to my tyranid mate that I didn't think Jaws worked above ground level. He immediately shoved all his MCs on the second floor of a ruin so I couldnt affect him.

 

I agree with the ruling that it affects the floor only .. as wildfire says, a line is one dimensional - not a plane.

 

However, what are your feelings on MC on second floors of ruins? The guy could "balance" his figures on the second floor - but about half of his base was sticking off the ledge - is this acceptable? Is it a rule of "if you can balance you can fit?"

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Durast, that kind of inference doesn't work. That it affects jetbikes does not mean it will affect models that are above ground level.

 

Jaws, per the Codex, specifically states that you draw the line along the table. You can try and interpret that any way you want, but it makes no reference to the line cutting diagonally across the air, or jetting up along terrain. It moves along the table (that is, directly on top, touching) and any models it touches (that is, models directly on the ground floor) are affected. Period.

 

 

DV8

 

Without clear statements from GW there remains room for more than one view. Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean that my argument isn't sound.

 

By the way, saying 'period' at the end of your post makes no sense: it means menstruation over here :P :lol: :lol:

[Ikken]

LOL - are we playing the same guy?

 

I (Foolishly) mentioned to my tyranid mate that I didn't think Jaws worked above ground level. He immediately shoved all his MCs on the second floor of a ruin so I couldnt affect him.

 

I agree with the ruling that it affects the floor only .. as wildfire says, a line is one dimensional - not a plane.

 

However, what are your feelings on MC on second floors of ruins? The guy could "balance" his figures on the second floor - but about half of his base was sticking off the ledge - is this acceptable? Is it a rule of "if you can balance you can fit?"

 

it was not me playing the game , it was a topic in another forum ( bugs ) which I also play . I had never thought about the issue before because it has never come up in one of my games . my initial thought was that ofcourse it would hit the model on the upper floor , but the rule does say table top , and there are precedents for having to choose which level you want an attack to hit . the other problem as i am thinking of it that could occur would be what if the 1st model you are targeting was in an upper level , can you target him at all , as he is not on the table top , and if you do does jaws just affect that level and miss the models below . Like just about every other SW player I always take JotWW on my rune priests so i thought i would fire the topic out to those who knew the rules and get an idea b4 it came up in one of my games .

[DV8]

Durast, that kind of inference doesn't work. That it affects jetbikes does not mean it will affect models that are above ground level.

 

Jaws, per the Codex, specifically states that you draw the line along the table. You can try and interpret that any way you want, but it makes no reference to the line cutting diagonally across the air, or jetting up along terrain. It moves along the table (that is, directly on top, touching) and any models it touches (that is, models directly on the ground floor) are affected. Period.

 

 

DV8

 

Without clear statements from GW there remains room for more than one view. Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean that my argument isn't sound.

 

By the way, saying 'period' at the end of your post makes no sense: it means menstruation over here :D :P :P

 

Period for emphasis. As in end of discussion. There is no room for interpretation, because RAW simply doesn't allow for it:

 

1. As Wildfire mentions, a line has only length, no height or width (both of which would make it a plane and not a line).
   
2. Jaws states that the line drawn must be straight.
   
3. Jaws states that the line must be drawn along the table.
   
4. Jaws states only models touched by the line (Assuming they fall under specifically mentioned categories of models) are affected.
   

 

Until GW comes out with an errata or an FAQ that rewrites Jaws to allow it to affect models above the ground level, you cannot, by RAW, attempt to draw a line diagonally to hit elevated models (breaks rule three), or attempt to have the line run along the table and shoot up along walls/terrain pieces to hit elevated models (breaks rule two). You cannot also draw a straight line on the table and argue that anything above the line (including elevated models) are affected (breaks rule four), as they are not, in point of fact, actually touched by the line.

 

Attempting to argue otherwise is either wishful thinking, or an attempt to bend the rules and/or cheat. Whatever tickles your fancy.

 

 

DV8

[Hear da Lamentation]

On a side note (as this is a Jaws rule post), I've seen a post discussing shooting JoWW from a second floor - in which case it hits the ground at the point specified and travels on the ground from there. This seems right. On the OP though, I have to say I've got to interpret that JoWW doesn't affect things on the 2nd floor. If you read the rules as written I think it is quite clear.

 

My Nid mate gets and advantage in this, but one I think is fair. I can see those pesky MC and Hive guard perched on any anything that gets them off the ground. I'm not letting him climb any bloody trees though ^_^

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Attempting to argue otherwise is either wishful thinking, or an attempt to bend the rules and/or cheat. Whatever tickles your fancy.

 

DV8

 

Umm :unsure:

[Wildfire]

First off, lets try to keep it civil.

 

Secondly, DV8, I personally consider terrain to be part of the tabletop. That is where the question for me comes in.

[Maximus-92]

I have to say i agree with wildfire in that terrain is considered a part of the tabletop. I think the point of contention is whether it affects ruins specifically because there are rules for targetting specifc levels of a ruin. The notion that Jaws does not affect models on any piece od terrain, for example a simple hill seems ridiculous.