JotWW question

[DV8]

Secondly, DV8, I personally consider terrain to be part of the tabletop. That is where the question for me comes in.

 

 

I have to say i agree with wildfire in that terrain is considered a part of the tabletop. I think the point of contention is whether it affects ruins specifically because there are rules for targetting specifc levels of a ruin. The notion that Jaws does not affect models on any piece od terrain, for example a simple hill seems ridiculous.

 

I made no mention of specific types of terrain in regards to what does or doesn't count as the tabletop. Merely that the line must be drawn along the board, and thus at ground level (as it cannot be elevated, which would require the line to move diagonally or vertically to reach a second tier.) Think of the table as "levels".

 

Second Floor / Tier 3

------------------------

First Floor / Tier 2

------------------------

Ground Level / Tier 1

 

Anything that falls along Tier 1 is considered Ground Level and to me, what would qualify as "along the board". Anything above that (First Floor / Tier 2 and beyond) you would be in some form of elevated terrain enough to qualify as being an entire level above (things like Ruins or Buildings). Hills and valleys, regardless of height and depth, are an abstraction to represent the natural contours of the land and I merely assumed no one would think me banal enough to consider a hill as an entirely separate entity from the actual table (which are both supposed to represent one and the same - the natural ground - as opposed to buildings being man-made terrain elements).

 

And in that regard, I would also argue that a Rune Priest who is NOT on ground level cannot fire Jaws of the World Wolf (as the line must originate touching the Rune Priest, and run along the ground). I would argue a Rune Priest who is not on Ground Level (that is, Tier 2 and/or beyond) could not actually by RAW be able to draw the line for Jaws without violating that requirement (that is, the line must be drawn along the board).

 

 

DV8

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

DV8,

 

One could equally argue that along the table top means following a straight line over the surface of the table top. This means over ruins, hills etc. and not under them.

 

C:SW certainly has no restriction listed that RPs cannot use JAWS if they are on a higher elevation.

 

I know that you have very strong views on this one, but it is clearly not as black and white as you have portrayed up 'til now.

 

Regards,

[DV8]

Just checked Space Wolves Codex for exact wording:

 

Space Wolves Codex, p. 37

The Rune Priest implores the spirit of the world upon which he walks to open its rock-fanged maw, and a chasm cracks open under the feet of his enemies, sending them tumbling to their deaths.

 

As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. ... models touched by this line must take an Initiative test.

 

Slight change in wording (damn my feeble memory), but it doesn't change my point.

 

The description of the power is that it opens up a chasm in the ground and models fall to their deaths.

The power tells you to draw a straight line along the board, and makes the distinction that it passes through terrain. Not over it, but through it.

 

EDIT: and once again I am of the mindset that such features as forests, hills, cliffs, etc, while are technically terrain features, are meant to represent abstractions of the physical landscape and thus (to my mind) would fall under the realms of "the board" as opposed to "terrain" (which ruins and buildings, as an example, fall under).

 

 

DV8

[Hear da Lamentation]

Sounds reasonable.

 

I would still say though that nothing in that desciption suggests you cannot do it while the RP is elevated. He stands on a ruin above the ground and "implores the spirit of the world to open up a chasm." Therefore, this chasm opens up directly below the RP and travels in a straight line 24".

[the jeske]

It cant open below him . it has to start from his base and as it cant because he is on tier 2 or higher then the power cant work. Like casting a power at a unit being out of range.

[DV8]

Yea by RAW the line actually has to originate from the Rune Priest model, and be drawn along the board. If the line cannot be drawn from the Rune Priest while remaining along the board, the power cannot be cast. You can interpret it differently but RAW doesn't allow it.

 

 

DV8

[Hear da Lamentation]

mmm - this seems a little erronious. You can shoot JoWW from within a rhino. This counts as either from the shooting position of the rhino - or the hull (can't remember which one it is) Either way, neither of those is "on the ground".

 

It certainly needs faq-ing (can't really believe this hasn't been done already considering the amount of discussion about JoWW there has been). Certainly neither of these scenarios seem clear cut.

[DV8]

mmm - this seems a little erronious. You can shoot JoWW from within a rhino. This counts as either from the shooting position of the rhino - or the hull (can't remember which one it is) Either way, neither of those is "on the ground".

 

It certainly needs faq-ing (can't really believe this hasn't been done already considering the amount of discussion about JoWW there has been). Certainly neither of these scenarios seem clear cut.

 

There's no error. You shoot Jaws from the fire point because it is a Psychic Shooting Attack and requires Line of Sight (measuring from the hull only applies to AoE spells that require no LoS). You then measure from the hatch of the Rhino (which is considered to be on the Ground, with the Priest embarked inside), with the line ignoring the Rhino because it cannot be affected by Jaws. It's a similar concept to firing a Template weapon, particularly when firing from a Rhino on Ground Level into a multi-level Ruins, where the Template Weapon would only be allowed to hit either the Ground Level or First Floor.

 

When in a Rhino, the Rune Priest inhabits whichever "level" the Rhino is also currently inhabiting. Which also means that, should a Rhino somehow be elevated to above Ground Level through whatever means, the Rune Priest inside cannot fire Jaws until the Rhino is once again on Ground Level (or the Rune Priest disembarks and makes his way to Ground Level).

 

 

DV8

[Decoy]

I rarely agree with DV8, and I damn near never agree with Jeske, but I have to side with 'em on this. There's actual rules for "firing from elevation". Jaws says "Draw along the board", and anything on Tier 2 or 3 isn't rightly "On the board", but is "Elevated". No Jaws against that MC.

 

With that said, can I get a rules quote regarding elevation and MCs? I know Bikes and some other units can't go up to Tier 2 or whatnot, but a GIANT MANEATING, TANK-CRUSHING MONSTROSITY can? -that- don't seem right.

[DV8]

I rarely agree with DV8...

 

;) :o

 

I'm hurt and shocked! :(

 

Haha naw not really. I'm a jerk most of the times :devil:

 

With that said, can I get a rules quote regarding elevation and MCs? I know Bikes and some other units can't go up to Tier 2 or whatnot, but a GIANT MANEATING, TANK-CRUSHING MONSTROSITY can? -that- don't seem right.

 

So long as the model can physically fit on Tier 2+, and rolls high enough, a Monstrous Creature can actually move above Ground Level. It's rare you'll have many Ruins big enough to hold some of the larger Monstrous Creatures (i.e. Carnifexes, Trygons/Mawlocs, etc.), but then there are Monstrous Creatures that are small enough that sometimes they'll fit (Hive Tyrant and Nightbringer, for example).

 

It should be noted we aren't just talking base size, we're also talking height. If a ruins has more than 2 floors, and the Monstrous Creature can't fit between the floors, he can't get up there.

 

EDIT: I don't have the rulebook on hand (I'm at work on lunch break), but it's in there somewhere in the beginning, possibly either in the ruins section, or moving through cover/terrain. I forget, it's been a while since I've read the thing cover to cover.

 

 

DV8

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Imagine rolling a ball 'along the table top'. It will go over terrain - be they hills or ruins - and not under them whilst at all time rolling along the tabletop.

 

'Along' is not the same as 'on', but is much more nuanced.

 

If there is no distinction in the rules between terrain such as woods, broken ground and ruins, then they is no RAW argument to differentiate between them. Otherwise a MC on top of a rock in broken ground/on a hill would have to test whilst another which was potentially lower in ruins would not. Yet there is no clear ruling to differentiate between the two in the rules that I can find.

 

I recognise the common sense in your argument DV8, just don't see as it being compelling RAW.

[the jeske]

Imagine rolling a ball 'along the table top'.

drawing a line is not rolling a ball . ground is ground there is and always has been a difference between table top and terrain and not just because a few edition used area terrain . IF something says that it is a stright line that it has to be a stright line . If it goes on the table then it goes on the table . IF it was like you say it you would be able to fire it in 3d and it would ignore LoS too because it would always go over some sort of terrain . of course then you would probably find a bastard that would ask to show him exactly how you draw a line through a tree which would take 3-4 min for each one [has to be stright] .

 

 

Otherwise a MC on top of a rock in broken ground/on a hill would have to test whilst another which was potentially lower in ruins would not

nothing like that would happen only ruins and buildings can have tiers hills cant . even a 6" high hill that blocks LoS totaly is only 1 tier . But a building that is 4" tall and has a platform in the middle has 2 tiers.

Tiers have nothing to do with how something is high or how it blockes LoS [it was like that in the 4th when stuff had fixed high] .

[Lord Ragnarok]

I think if it does not affect models in buildings/ruins it should have been designed to damage or destroy the structure. Opening up a chasm under a building has to effect it's structure.

[Starkhan Fellblade]

I think if it does not affect models in buildings/ruins it should have been designed to damage or destroy the structure. Opening up a chasm under a building has to effect it's structure.

 

 

I think a good way to address this would be to have any models in the building take a roll to see if they leap clear in time or go down with the building. this would be a normal initiative roll but they would subtract one form the roll like MCs. The people inside would notice the building falling down and maybe have time to escape it. This would of course assume that the building would be destroyed too, because it would make sense.

 

Starkhan

[Wildfire]

Hills and valleys, regardless of height and depth, are an abstraction to represent the natural contours of the land and I merely assumed no one would think me banal enough to consider a hill as an entirely separate entity from the actual table (which are both supposed to represent one and the same - the natural ground - as opposed to buildings being man-made terrain elements).

 

I find this to be an RAI argument. Any time you use the term "assume" in your argument, you are not using concrete facts from the relevant rulebook. If you have any backup in actual rules that state a difference between man-made and natural features, I'd be happy to change my mind. But as it is they're all terrain, so must all be effected equally. If you cannot affect a model on the second level of a building due to your interpretation of a "straight line", then you also cannot affect a model on top of a hill for the same reason.

 

I feel terrain is part of the tabletop. This is my opinion, I don't see anything in the rules that states things one way or the other. Again, if you can show me a ruling one way or the other, I would be happy to change my position.

 

The description of the power is that it opens up a chasm in the ground and models fall to their deaths.

 

Irrelevant. Flavor text is not rules. I point this out not to pick on you, DV8, but because this is the most common argument I hear.

[HsojVvad]

I am surprised it has taken this long for the debate to arrive.

 

So a few questions needs to be addressed. At least for my simple mind. :) So where in the BRB says MC can't go in buildings? As long as there is room, it can. Maybe alot of people play with buildings that don't have the room for a MC but hasn't anyone considered that people make terrian that will fit units besides Space Marines and their size?

 

So what is a line? For me a line is a certian width, but height is basically nothing. Now if there is height to it, it ceases to become a line and is something else. I forget what the terminalogy is. Usually lines are skinny but the can become thick, like lines in the highways or roads.

 

Also what is ment by "ground"? The rules even said about terrian. Buildings do count as terrian. But I also beleive, that the BRB difference the difference between ground level and upper levels. Other wise, beasts should be able to go on 2nd and above levels.

 

Also someone mentioned about jet bikes. I thought GW said jet bikes get effected, not because they are above ground, but because they are a sub class of bikes. So if bikes can be effected, jet bikes get effected as well because they are the same class.

 

Just some thoughts that's all.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

I just picture it as some uber phantasmic wolf's maw that rips up and out of the ground gobbling up everything in it's path, even as the second story(or 3rd) suddenly realizes there is no more first floor and falls in during that brief moment, lol. Besides, the Initiative test is just to see if you keep your balance IMHO, and not fall in. That's how I play it. We were talking about JoWW, weren't we? My eyes are getting boggled by reading something about MC's just now.

[TiguriusX]

So a few questions needs to be addressed. At least for my simple mind. :) So where in the BRB says MC can't go in buildings? As long as there is room, it can. Maybe alot of people play with buildings that don't have the room for a MC but hasn't anyone considered that people make terrian that will fit units besides Space Marines and their size?

 

BRB p.79 2nd paragraph

Only "infantry" can occupy a building (and/or appropriate ICs...same rule as transports)

[Vassakov]

So a few questions needs to be addressed. At least for my simple mind. B) So where in the BRB says MC can't go in buildings? As long as there is room, it can. Maybe alot of people play with buildings that don't have the room for a MC but hasn't anyone considered that people make terrian that will fit units besides Space Marines and their size?

 

BRB p.79 2nd paragraph

Only "infantry" can occupy a building (and/or appropriate ICs...same rule as transports)

 

Ruins aren't buildings though - a Building is an enclosed space, and has similar properties to a vehicle.

 

Ruins merely provide a cover save - and in theory, a MC can get up there. I've just rarely seen it done (though I did once fly a Thirster onto the top of some ruins for CC purposes. ;) )

 

As it is, I'm with DV8 and his argument - they are not on the "table top" and so aren't hit, similarly when the Rune Priest is on a level other than the table then he can't use Jaws, as the RAW doesn't allow it.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Sounds like another one that needs to be FAQ'd as we are having plenty of debate. (Yes, this means further discussion will have to be especially poignant :ermm: )

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK here is another question - hopefully poignant enough for Lord Ragnarok :ermm: but still a Jaws question.

 

You use Jaws to target a guy standing in the open. The line extends 24" from the RP and so goes past him and into a combat situation behind the guy.

Example 1 - the line just hits some enemy models in the combat

Example 2 - the line hits some friendly models AND enemy models in the combat.

 

Question - does the Jaws stop as soon as it encounters combat? Or does it effect ALL models it comes into contact with, regardless of whether they are in combat or not

(this is bearing in mind that Jaws clearly has some oddities to it not normally allowed under the rules, such as sniping a IC in a unit.)

[Vassakov]

OK here is another question - hopefully poignant enough for Lord Ragnarok :) but still a Jaws question.

 

You use Jaws to target a guy standing in the open. The line extends 24" from the RP and so goes past him and into a combat situation behind the guy.

Example 1 - the line just hits some enemy models in the combat

Example 2 - the line hits some friendly models AND enemy models in the combat.

 

Question - does the Jaws stop as soon as it encounters combat? Or does it effect ALL models it comes into contact with, regardless of whether they are in combat or not

(this is bearing in mind that Jaws clearly has some oddities to it not normally allowed under the rules, such as sniping a IC in a unit.)

 

I believe that as a psychic shooting attack, it cannot be fired in such a way as to hit your own units. It's the same rules for not firing a flamer into your own men.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I know what you mean, but usually you cannot select IC within a unit with a shooting attack - but you can with this. I'm not talking about targetting someone in combat, just if the line continues into a unit which is in combat.

 

If what you say is correct, what would happen - can you not select that person as your target with Jaws, because it would hit a unit in combat? Or does the line just stop before it reaches the unit in combat?

[Vassakov]

I believe you measure the whole 24", work out what models are hit and then roll the tests. If it hits a SW model, the line cannot be drawn in that way IIRC.

[stinkenheim]

As long as the first model affected is a viable target (in Los, not in combat, in range and an enemy unit) then the line simply extends until the full 24" and will also target any models beyond regardless of whether they are usually a viable target. As such you can kill models from both sides including those in close combat.