Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 But that's why we have Blood Angels. They have a sort of stand in for Infiltration: D6 scatter Deep Strike. Almost as accurate, almost as deadly. And Alpha Legion are pretty much wherever you think they are, they aren't. Personally, Ithink they should get a rule similar to the Changeling daemon thing. No we have Blood Angels because they look better in red.. :P The fact is that there is still no exact replication possible, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 No, but there is bad and good replication. Blood Angels fall under the 'good' category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 No, but there is bad and good replication. Blood Angels fall under the 'good' category. There shouldn't need to be a replication though, should there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Yes, that is the OP's point: Why do people use replication in any form? EDIT: I lost my 1111 post status. Pity I didn't get that at 11:11:11 on 11-1-11. That would have been cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Yes, that is the OP's point: Why do people use replication in any form? I explained why. I also stated that there shouldn't need to be any replication because there should be a C:CSM that allows representation of the Legions unique characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Sorry, I understand your post now. Yes, I definitely agree with that. Hopefully GW's FAQ update means that instead of BT and DA, C:CSM will be getting an update soon. Preferably a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Can you represent accurately an Iron Warriors force? Yep. World Eaters? Yep. Word Bearers? Yep. Thousand Sons? Yep. Alpha Legion? Yep. Night Lords? Yep. Do we really need to go through all this again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yep. And frankly, I briefly considered using C:SW to make an Alpha Legion force. I still get the B/BP/CCW combo, multiple special weapons in a squad, and I can field Infiltrators that have the BS/WS of a fully initiated battle brother rather than a scout. I'm not a huge fan of Raptors or Chaos bikers anyway, so those downgrades don't bother me so much. At the end of the day, what stopped me was that I'm still not done spending money on my Eldar, or painting any of about seven other armies. I still miss the halcyon days of my 100% Infantry, 100% Infiltrating Alphas. Those were the days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I'm not Dutch. Just an expat. You must have missed my film. It was called "Death by Dreadsock". You live in the land of windmills, dykes and tulips.. You are Dutch until I see a passport :P I live in the netherlands but those 3 things are rarely seen where i live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Can you represent accurately an Iron Warriors force? Yep. World Eaters? Yep. Word Bearers? Yep. Thousand Sons? Yep. Alpha Legion? Yep. Night Lords? Yep. Do we really need to go through all this again? Yes we do, because. So how do you represent - accurately - each of those forces? I'm not Dutch. Just an expat. You must have missed my film. It was called "Death by Dreadsock". You live in the land of windmills, dykes and tulips.. You are Dutch until I see a passport :) I live in the netherlands but those 3 things are rarely seen where i live. I don't live in the Netherlands and unsurprising they're quite sparse around me too :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Can you represent accurately an Iron Warriors force? Yep. World Eaters? Yep. Word Bearers? Yep. Thousand Sons? Yep. Alpha Legion? Yep. Night Lords? Yep. Do we really need to go through all this again? Yes we do, because. So how do you represent - accurately - each of those forces? Perhaps the question we should be asking is "Why do people use counts-as rather than the Chaos Dex?" Answer being "New codeces have representative builds that are more competetive, blah-de-blah-de-blah" Unfortunately, this happens to everyone. As a Codex becomes outdated, it slumps. Nothing we can do. I'm not Dutch. Just an expat. You must have missed my film. It was called "Death by Dreadsock". You live in the land of windmills, dykes and tulips.. You are Dutch until I see a passport :P I live in the netherlands but those 3 things are rarely seen where i live. I don't live in the Netherlands and unsurprising they're quite sparse around me too :o I live in Wales, and these things are everywhere... So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Personally I think, that Alpha legion can be better represented with SM codex than CSM, because SM dex gives player much more options for tactical variability. I play AL using CSM though, but I think I will switch from SM to CSM time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 What is the most core unit for Iron Warriors? It's Chaos Space Marines. What is the most core unit for Word Bearers? Again, Chaos Space Marines. What is the core unit for Alpha Legion, or Night Lords? Chaos Space Marines of course. Once you have a nice selection of Chaos Space Marines, then you can think about adding more heavy support units, more stalthy or fast attack units or more daemons to model your force more towards one of those Legions. Trying to find an army list that has "cultists" or "siege stuff" but does not actually have the trademark Chaos Space Marine units and weapons is an entirely backwards approach to represent a Chaos force. And what is a CSM? If you answered "a subjective amount of numbers and words given by an author, that is entirely subject to change as time goes on" then you are correct. I know we disagree with this, but to me a CSM is not defined entirely by "a Marine without ATSKNF", because there are arguments and scenarios when a CSM could be said to fluffily have that rule. At the end of the day, a Marine is a Marine. They come in different varieties, but they're the same thing at heart. If it really bothers people that much, I'll just say my army is Pre-Heresy, and you won't be able to say a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 .... If I wanted to do a Khornate army of Blood Knights (This is what I call berzerkers on Juggers... they may have an official name I don't know)... and why would I not want to! The idea is awesome! What codex would be best to use? Codex Chaos space marines? Na ah... I guess bikers are the closest thing to jugger riders but they are not very close and pretty weak... Chaos Space Wolves on the other hand allows me to run a PA army with guys riding on giant monsters... suits Juggers far better although I admit Space Wolves are not Khorne Berzerkers but if you are trying to go with a different theme than lots of berzerkers in rhinos codex Space Wolves may well be better... In the 3.5 dex I used to play a guy who had a Biker Berzerkers of Khorne army... Oh he can do a unit with the icon of khorne but it isn't the same as his old world eater list... The thing is the icons don't make units feel like noise marines, plague marines, 1ksons or berzerkers.... they make whatever unit feel like that unit with +1 attack... +1 Toughness... A plague marine is more than just a guy who is a bit tougher... a rubric marine is more than just a guy with an invulnerable save! Infact Rubrics have about as much in common with a tactical squad as they do a unit of chaos space marines... and that is why they have their own entry.... But what about Rubric terminators? Now neither chaos terminators or loyalist terminators represent them... So the thing is if you want to go with a theme that is a bit out there like the blood knights I mentioned or maybe a raptor cult then other codices might do a better job for that theme... If you want a standard legion force rather than going with a certain theme it might be that neither C:SM or C:CSM or any other codex does a great job of showing your chosen legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 The answer for each is: Better than with any loyalist Codex. What is the most core unit for Iron Warriors? It's Chaos Space Marines. What is the most core unit for Word Bearers? Again, Chaos Space Marines. What is the core unit for Alpha Legion, or Night Lords? Chaos Space Marines of course. Once you have a nice selection of Chaos Space Marines, then you can think about adding more heavy support units, more stalthy or fast attack units or more daemons to model your force more towards one of those Legions. Trying to find an army list that has "cultists" or "siege stuff" but does not actually have the trademark Chaos Space Marine units and weapons is an entirely backwards approach to represent a Chaos force. Sorry... what? While they may not be ideal... in what way is a chaos player getting less fluffy for his undivided force is he plays C:SWs? Using the counts as system he has access to a daemon prince *TWM+Wolf Lord* Sorceror *Rune Priest* CSMs *Grey Hunters* Daemon Packs *Fenrisian Wolves* Spawn/possessed *Thunderwolves* Chosen *Wolf Gaurd* Havocs *Long Fangs* SM style vehicles..... all quite similar to what they have now. I dont usually like this kind of thing. Hell, I think half the problem with chaos is some people have math-hammered it to death to much, but I have to admit something.... this may come as a shock.... are you reading closely? The Chaos Codex is Bland. Thats right. The powerful, mutating, ever changing forces of CHAOS are represented in an incredibly bland fashion. More than the loss of any particular rule, more than the price-value issues some units have, its the homogenious nature of the chaos codex that has drive almost every single vet in my area to near tears, and almost as many from the game entirely. If Counts-As brings the spark of interest back for them and the units approximate rightly *and for the emperors love I cant think of better rules for Night Lords than the current BA codex, even in 3.5* then by all means bring it on. I want those opponents back. I want the intellegent, focused, yet laid back person that was the majority of chaos players I knew. I would delay my beloved eldar another four years if I could have a chaos codex out 2 months after the Grey Knights. The idea of what codex best represents Chaos Space Marines is even simpler than your proposed answer legatus- the best representation is whichever one the player thinks fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 These threads are like arguing politics or religion. No one is gonna change their mind. I wonder do people deride Dark Angels players who use the C:SM codex. I have never seen that complained about.. yet its the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 These threads are like arguing politics or religion. No one is gonna change their mind. I wonder do people deride Dark Angels players who use the C:SM codex. I have never seen that complained about.. yet its the same thing. I have ways of changing peoples minds but I need to meet in person for re-education to be a 100% sure thing. Well Dark Angels are pretty much a codex chapter... so if you don't use special characters, 1st company units and bike squads you don't actually have that many differences. But the more extreme you go the more people are going to rage at you... Use C:SM to represent DA... a few people may say something... Use C:SM to represent chaos and a few more voices join in! Use C:SM to represent orks and I'm sure you would get a lot of protests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techmarine Azuris Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 First of thanks for all the repplies! Secondly if someone uses count as I dont mind, just cant stand it when people say its for fluff just cos the list wouldnt work on the table wit CSM! I saw a beautifully converted khorne riders army (on steads/horses) where the author said he isnt using C:CSM cos it just wouldnt work as bikes are useless! I cqn just about see NL as BA, but DG as SW! Also why does everyone say when someone starts a chaos army to count as? Why even bother with the chaos codex at all then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I use codex sw to represent my renegade force, but thats mainly because I want an army of termies, and thats one of 2 ways to get scoring termies. When playing using the chaos dex I play deathguard, but because of my restrictions (mark of nurgle), the only infantry I can take is plague marines, havocs/chosen/regular marines with the icon of nurgle do not count, I want fearless toughness 5 models, as this to me is what it means to be deathguard. Suffice to say, I have few options to build a 1500 point list (1 prince, as I dont see the fluff in having 2, plague marines, dreads (way more unreliable then before), rhinos/vindicators/landraiders/predators), and at 2000 points I add in 2 termicide units and 2 oblitorators, while not deathguard, that is the only allowance I'll make in my list. So yes I see the current chaos codex as bland. Me and my friends play in a relaxed environment and use loads of stand ins at times (I try and play my army as wysiwyg, still need to assemble some plaguemarines though), so I have no issue with people trying out new units, or trying out new codices, If I go to my local GW and there is someone using red/grey/blue/pink marines, I'd have no issue with them using what ever codex they want, as the most important rule is to have fun. I'd much rather lose a good game then win a bad one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Why even bother with the chaos codex at all then? I've been asking myself that same question since it came out. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 So how do you represent - accurately - each of those forces? 2xDP 3-4 troops oblits. this is how you make all chaos lists in the dex . But to look at the thing from a bit different side then normal [+am too lazy to write why the codex is boring etc] . I think I would be ok if the dex was a BL codex [the happy chaos family makes sense only with BL] . I would be ok with it . GW comes out sorry guys no armies for you this edition , it would be much better . why you ask ? well first people who dont care about the fluff aspect of the game wouldnt be hit on the compostion score and wouldnt have to hear fluff heads whine how every army has oblits and every army has DPs . the second thing would be for people who dont want to play BL and care more or less for the chaos army fluff , would be able to let it go and use what ever they went for the armies . And again they wouldnt have to hear those stories how it is possible to make different legion armies with the BL dex that all work etc . These threads are like arguing politics or religion. No one is gonna change their mind. no they arent because [first because politics and religion are two very different things] here we talk about facts we can prove and we can all see . Is the chaos forms , army list section here as live as it was in 3.5 times ? is there a larger or smaller number of possible builds and armies now , or was it 3.5 that gave use more ? do tournaments see many chaos armies , how different are those armies ? was a lord/Lt/stature DP viable and are DP/lords viable now too ? And what is probably most important how much difference in game play do we get when we decide to use something a but different ? Those questions are not pure rhetorics or how I or some other dude views chaos [because lets face it , it doesnt matter what one dude thinks about the game anyway] , but how the the Gav dex influence the game as a whole ? I mean If GW realy though that stream lining is so great[lets put aside the fact here that they made the chaos dex only because the ork model range wasnt ready] why did they change it after just two dex ? why did they decide that that marines who seem to worship their spirtual leader MC and are carbon copies of each other need to have different builds , unlike the chaos legions which while drasticly different were made the same in the Gav dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I never thought I'd be happy to see The Jeske in a thread.. Until now ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 So how do you represent - accurately - each of those forces? Iron Warriors Mainly undivided units. Take a lot of heavy support choices and heavy vehicles, e.g. an army with a Vindicator, a Defiler, a unit of Obliterators and possibly a Dreadnought or two. World Eaters* Berserkers and heavy vehicles (all the cool daemon engines are khornate anyway). Defilers are quite suitable. Word Bearers* Mainly undivided units. Take a few units of lesser daemons as well, and possibly a squad of Possessed. Thousand Sons* Thousand Sons squads. Sorcerers for HQs. Alpha Legion Mainly undivided units. Chosen, and try to use a bit of every choice in the Codex. The Alpha Legion is all about employing as many different means to strike as possible. You could also use daemon units to represent drugged up/binonically enhanced cultists waiting to ambush. Night Lords Mainly undivided units. Chosen and Raptors. *With the opponents permission, these armies may use a detachment from the Codex Chaos Daemons as allies. The daemons should obviously be appropriate for the Legion (as should be the CSM choices, obviously). That way you can field Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Blood Thirsters and Juggernaut riders in a World Eaters army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 So how do you represent - accurately - each of those forces? Iron Warriors Mainly undivided units. Take a lot of heavy support choices and heavy vehicles, e.g. an army with a Vindicator, a Defiler, a unit of Obliterators and possibly a Dreadnought or two. World Eaters* Berserkers and heavy vehicles (all the cool daemon engines are khornate anyway). Defilers are quite suitable. Word Bearers* Mainly undivided units. Take a few units of lesser daemons as well, and possibly a squad of Possessed. Thousand Sons* Thousand Sons squads. Sorcerers for HQs. Alpha Legion Mainly undivided units. Chosen, and try to use a bit of every choice in the Codex. The Alpha Legion is all about employing as many different means to strike as possible. You could also use daemon units to represent drugged up/binonically enhanced cultists waiting to ambush. Night Lords Mainly undivided units. Chosen and Raptors. *With the opponents permission, these armies may use a detachment from the Codex Chaos Daemons as allies. The daemons should obviously be appropriate for the Legion (as should be the CSM choices, obviously). That way you can field Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Blood Thirsters and Juggernaut riders in a World Eaters army. But each choice is not perfect is it? You can represent, but not in a truly accurate way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 And most tournaments won't let you use the Dawkins from Codex: Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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