1500 Honour guard

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hey guys

So, i have been playing honour guard in various play testing games, and they have performed well in some, not so well in others.

Now, i would like to make a 1500 list that would good for them. here's what i've got:

 

HQ

Chapter Master

Relic blade, Strom Shield, Artificier Armour

185 points

 

-Honour Guard

4 men, Relic Blade, Chapter Banner and Rhino

215 points

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Scout Snipers

Missile Launcher, Telion

135 points

 

Heavy Support

Predator Destructor

heavy Bolters

85 points

 

Vindicator

115 points

 

Vindicator

115 Points

 

1500 Points Total

 

Now, the key to this list i thought would be target saturation (Tacticals and Vindicators) and making it a difficult choice as to what to shoot.

Now, I am not really used to using "uber killy squads", so i would like some advice on this.

and, btw, i know that Honour Guard aren't hammers (that's what Hammernators are for :P), they are the scalpel, to be used as a bully/counter charge unit.

What do you guys think would improve this list?

Thanks for any input in advance.

Rafen

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think the points come out slightly wrong on the honour guard, 4 members, 1 relic blade and a banner is 190 isn't it? Rhino addition would make it 225 not 215...

 

Now when I look at your list I see a lot of anti-tank tacticals and a small scout unit. Lots of troops, but then theres lots of points spent on not the most dangerous units. I would either cut 1 tactical + scout squad, or just use 2 small scout squads. Give yourself a lot of points for firepower.

 

Replace them with rifleman dreads to crush light armour (continuing the tacticals jobs at a longer range), possibly some vanguard vets or hammernators to force enemies to choose between 2 melee units?

 

At the mo you have 1 melee unit in a rather light tin box, a land raider would better protect them, if the chapter master is with them too, its even more of a shoot me label on the unit. You're paying a premium for the unit, its going to suffer if they lose their ride.

 

Numbers can work and the tacticals are well armed for smashing tanks, which might cause some disruption to the enemy, but replacing one of them with a fast attack of elite choice might go a long way.

 

I like your idea, it sounds good. Im just offering a few suggestions. :angry:

[Captain Idaho]

In games they didn't perform so well what exactly happened?

 

I find if my opponent knows the threat they posess they will go out of their way to neutralise them as a threat. If this happens then take their loss on your chin - nothing in 40K can withstand everything! If you win the game because you pulled half the enemy army away from your own army to deal with the squad then all is good anyway.

 

Recent game in point, my regular opponent sgt campbell used 4 obliterators, a Daemon Prince's Lash to pull the squad out of cover and a Chaos Marine squad to destroy my Honour Guard and was lucky my Chapter Master failed his break test from shooting as he was about to charge the 5 Chaos Marines on their only objective with 2 wounds remaining and 2 turns left.

 

Even though my Master ran off :P the distraction still went in my favour as the destruction of the Honour Guard was only achieved by pulling the flying Daemon Prince away from the attack on my own objective. This meant I could hold out against superior forces (chaos Marines are better than Tacticals after all) and another Daemon Prince. Game was a draw but that is because my opponent knows what he is doing and knew what to target to swing things back in his favour.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, the thing is that i'm not trying to make a huge label on my Honour Guard that says "SHOOT ME OR I WILL KILL YOU", I want them to sort of "blend" in with the rest of the force. Now, depends on the army, i was planning on rushing forward with the Vindicators up front to provide threats for him to shoot, whilst my Tacticals wouldn't be to far behind, following up nice and close to take out his tanks, and to provide additional support, and finally the Honour Guard would either be rushing in Rhino's alongside of the tacticals, or defending the home objective as the situation demands.

Obviously, this isn't going to be a universal tactic, it is just rough approximation of what they will be doing.

to Shadowstalker Grim, i'd rather not place my Honour guard as a uber killy squad. Even in Raiders, which i've tried, as i get closer to my opponents lines they get hit with Melta, which isn't very good for the Honour Guard and/or Chapter master inside when the Raider goes pop because it had the painted sign on it's hull (^). Now, puting the squad in a Rhino probably isn't the best method of keeping unit alive for extended durations of time, but now, with three tacticals and a couple of Vindicators covering it, they can get to the front line without bringing to much attantion to themselves, since my opponent has to deal with the Vindicators ASAP, and then the supporting tacticals.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I completely respect that getting the squad in the land raider smacks a label on them (and a lot of points) so they'll probably get some heavy fire their way and melta isn't healthy for your vehicles!

 

Luckily at 190 the HG aren't too expensive, so your tactic sounds perfectly reasonable. I was just offering a few suggestions for ya to mull over, i'd say your tactics should work well. The more high profile threats you have, the more likely one of them is to slip through and do some real damage.

 

In a double edged sword capacity the HG can deal some real damage, even when in small numbers...so they'll probably have a slight label on them at all times (but then you ARE taking them for that death dealing wonderfulness)

 

I suppose you could try splitting up your HG and your Chapter Master, that way the points aren't so heavy in one place and more spread out (potentially making another squad a little more lethal) but that does detract a bit from the way you might want to run it, so again, just a suggestion ;)

[Captain Idaho]

I found the same thing; putting Honour Guard into a Rhino makes them a far reduced burden on the rest of the army. I used to run a Landraider but now come to the conclusion I was sacrificing too much to fit it into the list.

 

Bascially, if you are going to have a single point of failure in your list, you need to ensure that point is as hard as possible. Or another way of putting it; if you are putting your eggs all into a single basket, you are better off with hard boiled eggs and a steel framed basket.

 

You are on the right track with your army though. Taking vehicles that are as much of a priority to opponents as your Honour Guard's Rhino will give them a slightly longer life expectancy.

 

Another way of doing this is to move the Honour Guard transport in such a way that it gets a cover save when there are other armoured threats that don't have one. People are loath to waste firepower so often will consider the threat of your Honour Guard's Rhino to be equal to another target without a cover save which can result in an extra turn's grace before destruction of their transport.

 

A nice little trick is to use another vehicle to completely block the front armour facing the enemy, which might not actually block a unit from being able to see at least part of the transport but if it blocks the facing side you at least get a 3+ cover save.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Thanks for the positive reply's so far guys.

So, are their any problems with the overall list? Should change something, exchange something with something else?

[waaanial00]

Scout Snipers

Missile Launcher, Telion

135 points

 

^^ That ^^

 

Not enough bodies to make the whole unit worth while and Telion isnt going to be carrying the game with either 2 shots at 36" or 1 Missile per turn. I would dump the unit and get a single Typhoon and spread the other 45 points around a bit OR get a Dreadnought with shooting arms.

 

Your spammed melta tacs are rather dull as well, almost nothing in your list goes further than 24" realistically. If you face off against a faster enemy on a larger board you might have big issues actually getting enough shots onto the enemy.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, the Snipers are there as objective campers. That is, quiet simply, it. They aren't meant for anything else aside from early scoring in cover (hopefully),

and/or divert his attacks against the Scouts if it's like an Ahnialation(sp?) mission. Though, Telion is a good point, I might drop him for something like upgrades or something.

The tacticals make up for lack of range with speed and numeracy. Having multiple large units (MLU's, essentially) is great, since they are survivavble, useful, and they can also do a number of other useful things like Combat squading for objectives, or drawing fire/assaulting other units to buy time for other guys to shoot, etc. They really are useful, especially with three (unlike my usual two), and so can do alot of things by themselves.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Problem with tacticals is that they aren't terribly threatning, which bumps your honour guard up in the 'to kill' list. Something more terrifying would work better. Short range is a problem. I'd at least kick telion and make that scout squad as cheap as possible as an objective holder.

 

Generally as i said before, just have the 2 troops and fill out on other dangerous units to create target saturation, big units can be scary, but also inefficient.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Good point about being threatning, but I would rather not drop any Tacs since they rarely, if ever, let me down.

I'm thinking about dropping the Dakka Pred, since I find that it doesn't allways pull it weight whever I use it (partially my problem, but my friends' lists make it hard to use effectively.

What would be good replacement for it? with 150 odd points to spare, I'm thinking on bumping the Honour Guard back to five and adding another Vindicator to the list, since three are a nuisance to beat and are majorly threatning in their own right.

What do you guys think?

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, if you put something else scary into the army you will be paying additional points to do so.

 

The cheapest way to do so in a Space Marines list is using vehicles that scare people more, or Drop a cheaper unit (like Tactical squads) in a threatening position. This means a player will have to split anti-tank firepower with the transport carrying the Honour Guard, making the assumption that Honour Guard can look after themselves once in charge range, or the latter means there is a unit that needs to be dealt with quickly because of it's awkward placing (for the opponent) despite it being only an average unit.

[Br0ther Rafen]

I agree with you, Idaho, that's what I plan on doing. 3 Vindies are pretty cheap for the threat that they provide, and with the unapgraded scouts and loss of the Predator I can afford them.

Anyway, here is V2.0 List:

 

HQ

Chapter Master

Relic blade, Strom Shield, Artificier Armour

185 points

 

-Honour Guard

5 men, Relic Blade, Chapter Banner and Rhino

260 points

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Scout Snipers

75 points

 

Heavy Support

Vindicator

115 points

 

Vindicator

115 points

 

Vindicator

115 Points

 

1495 Points Total

 

So, what do you guys think of the list above?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well... its got punch, I'll give you that. I prefer things little more well-rounded, so I'm nervous that you have no guns over 24" in range. However, for what it is, I think it's not bad. Just remember that you'll need to play very aggressively to get good use of what you've got.

[Br0ther Rafen]

thanks ferrum, that was the orginal plan. I guess I'll try this out and see how it goes.

Thanks for all of the help guys.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hey guys

Now, I took this list to a tournement today, and it did allright, winning 3/5 games that we played, and there are a few problems with it that I found. the Vindicators were not as a effective as I had hoped, either missing entierly in most cases (damn scatter dices), or getting "dealt" with early on in the games that i played, along with the Scouts which were either useless, or got assualted on the objective they were camping on. the problem was that they weren't really substantial enough to do anything against units with just the 5 Snipers. So, The only thing whih really carried the day was my Honour guard and my ever-so-humble Tacticals, which did great with the supporting Honour Guard. After this, I was fortunate enough to go to my friends house for a few hours and we versed there in a match and I lost purely because of Vindies. They either speared off and missed, or they didn't kill massive amounts of the twenty+ Ork mobs on the table that I was hoping for. plus, the wrecks ended up blocking my LOS and provided cover for the Orks, thus getting him into assualt range of my tacticals. It was a good game, but the Vindies and Scouts didn't end up doing much throughout the day (but it sure as hell was a fun day, regardless :cuss).

Anyway, I have revised it, and here is what I have come up with:

 

HQ

Chapter Master

Relic blade, Strom Shield, Artificier Armour

185 points

 

-Honour Guard

5 men, Relic Blade, Chapter Banner and Rhino

260 points

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multimelta

Rhino

210

 

Elites

Venerable Dreadnought

Extra Armour, Assualt Cannon

190 Points

 

Dreadnought

Plasma Cannon, Extra Armour

130 Points

 

Heavy Support

Thunderfire Cannon

100 Points

 

1495 points

 

All right, I like to try out new things so I have tried out Dreads for the "replacement threats" of the Vindicators, and threw in a Thunderfire since I have had good success almost everytime I use it.

Wasn't sure what to do with the remaining 60 points after buying the Dreads, so I made one venerable.

What do you guys think of this list?

[waaanial00]

Yeah 5 scouts even with Telion is a garbage unit, something which you can only really appreciate by trying yourself.

 

Instead of Vindicators or Dreadnoughts have you considered Typhoon Speeders? They are actually really decent in providing the kind of long range support fire that you are missing.

 

Making a Dreadnought Venerable is generally a bad idea. Especially when said Venerable has a short ranged weapon. Also putting Extra Armour on your Plasma Cannon dread is probably not the best, Dreadnoughts arent that brilliant in combat so you might be better keeping the 15 points and investing it somewhere else.

 

You will likely get a lot of negative reports about the Thunderfire, including someone coming along and suggesting that the Dakka Pred is much better. Whether or not you want to have one in your list is entirely up to you. I run one fairly regularly and it rarely disappoints.

 

Again though you are lacking on long range firepower, something which might be resolved by putting a Lascannon or Autocannons on your Dreads rather than the Assault Cannon.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Of all the weapons a venerable dread can take, the assault cannon is pretty decent and maybe the best choice for it. After all it lets it really make full use of that BS5 (which i might add the other weapons don't) tossing out plenty of shots. The MM for the venerable is decent too, but isn't as many shots.

 

However the venerable is a very double edged sword in that it costs a lot, for perhaps only a very small increase in prowess. It'll stick around longer and maybe deal more damage, but its not exactly a cheap step up from a regular dreadnought. But i'd advise giving it a try and seeing how it does for yourself.

 

If you plan on making your dreads a ranged threat, then rifleman (two autocannon arms) is king of the light armour shredding, whilst the lascannon/missile launcher combo is pretty decent at a better quality of shot than the rifleman (potentially threatning tougher targets, but not as many shots)

 

I'd avoid using plasma or lascannons on the venerable dread if you run it, as the improvements aren't going to be huge...

 

Also extra armour is well worth it on dreads to keep em at their prime and the upgrade isn't much. The venerable dread is pretty costly and extra armour makes him that bit tougher (protecting that investment in points) whilst the regular dreads are generally cheap enough to warrant it anyway.

 

 

I'll agree with Waaanial00 that typhoons are also a good option to consider as a threat, dishing out missile and heavy bolter fire happily. Whilst thunderfires have mixed reviews, i think its fair to say its a pretty decent piece of kit that'll dish out some long range pain, or force the enemy to try and get rid of it (which just lets you get your units into place and start wreaking havoc!)

 

I like the reviewed list, its always nice to hear how you did and what/why changed :D

[DarkGuard]

I agree with Waan and Grim about the Dreads, and I would very highly recommend Rifleman Dreads, they are near enough a staple in my army now, able to wipe the floor with any light vehicle. In one game against an Ork player I killed 5 of his 6 Killa Kans in one turn, wiping them all out. He remarked that those Dreads were nasty and were the only things to have killed so many of his Kans in one turn. That said, they do struggle against AV12 upwards, so you might want to think about Typhoons. If you want suppression than squadrons of one will be fine. If you want to kill stuff then squadrons of two are a must.

 

I like the rest of the list, except the Tactical squads. I personally prefer to pair multi-meltas with flamers and plasma guns, and meltaguns with missile launchers, as you're not likely to shoot both meltas at the same time, but that's my preference.

 

I will say one thing about the Vindys, and that's don't give up on them. I bought some for a tournament May last year, and at first was appalled by how poorly my investment were doing. They never hit, I always rolled poorly for killing things, and they were neutralised quickly. But I'd paid my money and was determined to make them work. Then at the tournament, in the second round they killed 18 Daemonettes in one turn, thanks to two spot on hits on the unit that had just deployed via Deep Strike. Next game they caused damage as well.

 

What I then realised is that when you buy a Vindicator, you don't buy it for anti-infantry firepower. If you want that got for a dakka pred, or Typhoons or a TFC. You don't even but it for anti-heavy infantry, plasma gun command squads are more reliable. When you buy a Vindicator you buy it for distraction. Your opponent will not want that S10 large blast hitting his models, and so will try and neutralise them, giving your Rhinos breathing space. And if they hit, then bonus. Couple with Null Zone as well they can be devastating. I try not to rely on them for killing things, and have taken them out for a bit to try other things, but I still feel vulnerable without the knowledge that my opponent is going to shoot them. And luck is in swings and roundabouts. If you have a bad 5 games now, a couple of months down the line they'll be brilliant for 5 games. So I'd advise sticking with them, unless the Dreads and Typhoons do better.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Allright, about the Dreads, I wasn't to sure on what to do with 420 points to spare (the space free'd up from the Vindies and Scouts), and I wanted something that could threaten my opponent from killing my Honour Guard, yet could still actually do something in turn. I thought that I may as well try out some Dreads, advance them up forwards and draw his attention away from the Guard so that they could do some damage before my opponent realises the danger they pose. When I decided to do this, I wasn't sure on what to pick to provide 1. a sufficient threat for my opponent to focus on, and 2. Something which I can rely on to kill things. I am not expecting them to kill 30 Orks every turn, or to win me the game by themselves. What do you guys think would help me with this problem? Maybe just use a single Vindicator instead of three?

[DarkGuard]

If you want to use Dreads, you need to define a role for them at the beginning of the game, rather than let the game define a role for them. Nearly every config you throw out will be or look threatening, it just depends what you want them to do. Rifleman would fit well into the list as the autocannons would be handy for knocking out transports. Assault cannon and heavy flamer will be slow, but lascannon heavy flamer could be handy, able to knock out transports, able to tie up units in combat, and less conversion required. Or a bit more pricey multi-melta and heavy flamer. It comes down to what you prefer and what fits your list better.

 

For 180pts, look at Typhoons as well, able to provide a real threat from range, knocking out transports and infantry (enough of these guys will plow through 30 Ork boyz). Also, 2 units of 2 will fit nicely into that 420pts with some spare. 60pts spare in fact, so maybe a couple of MM/HF to help with melta...

 

If you want to stick with Vindys, then I wouldn't use just the one, always use two as a minimum. Remember, their job is to be a threat, a threat that while unreliable can still put out damage. Two of them means they remain a threat longer, as your opponent either knocks one out, or splits fire. Also, two (or even three) Vindicator templates are more likely to do damage than one. If you want to keep up with them, then do, just not with one.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, my only primary concern for the unit is that it is both threatning, and actually usefull. Vindicators are a big threat, sure, but it is only so useful if it hits it's target from 30" away, which is quite annoying along with only a single weapon that's actually useful for the opponent to destroy.

Whereas, Dreads can be very useful, but aren't really sufficiently threatning for what I want them to do. Typhoons would be very useful, but I don't like playing with tin cans since they can be shot down by some Bolters really easily. Not to say that they are bad, just that if I take a unit, I want it to be able to take a little punishment.

Any unit that could perform the role that I want them to perform in the Codex?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I had a gripe about typhoons lately, only a heavy bolter and missile launcher over the MM/HF config, for MORE points?

 

But i learned that it was the speed and range of ther weapons that make the typhoon that much more deadly, used right bolters shouldn't pose too much threat apparently. They can also fire frags on the move, something other speeders can't do!

 

Alternately, you could do 3 dakka preds? Plenty of anti infantry punch there, with some light vehicle

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, 3 Typhoons are about 270 points, which is pretty damn expensive for tin cans, but I guess they can do quite well if I use them correctly, just need to practice with them I guess.

I'll try them out, see if I like them, otherwise I can use Vindies again/try Terminators or something suffiently helpful.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Captain Idaho]

Typhoons in pairs is what I prefer and this gives you a squadron that will encourage many players to target them any chance they get. This means ranged weapons intended for you Honour Guard Rhino will be diverted to the Typhoons. Same can be said to MM/HF Landspeeders, especially when flying forwards into striking distance for the next turn. :P