Deep-striking Terminators

[MagicMan]

I'm unsure if its worth deep-striking terminators or not.

 

 

I played a 1000pt game against IG yesterday, and they didn't arrive till turn 4. Thats 4 turns of 8 stormbolter shots and 4 assault cannon shots that i was missing out on, i was effectively playing 750 points against 1000.

 

 

I managed to win in the end anyway, on turn 4, but the Termies did nothing apart from destroy a Basilisk when it tried to tank shock them.

 

 

Thoughts/Opinions?

[Xeonic]

Most of the time I'd rather have my termies on the table to get those rounds of shooting out of them, but if you're reserving a lot of stuff it can get them on the table right where you need them completely intact. Teleporting an intact unit of terminators onto an objective turn 4 is a great way to contest even if it means you lose out on 3 turns of shooting with that sweet heavy weapon they have, plus all that storm bolter fire.

 

Point is, deep strike is a tradeoff, and it's a gamble, on the one hand you trade their damage for total safety in the way that not even a land raider can provide, and it's a gamble in that you don't know when you'll roll your reserves or if you'll scatter badly and potentially mishap. Sometimes it's well worth it, but for me most of the time I'd rather walk them up the board to get that shooting in on their stroll up the board.

[LardO'Blood]

Let's look at this logically.

The "best" weapon for terminators is the CML. (4' range)

1000 points are played on no more then a 6'x4' board.

So, by not deep striking you can be 12" away from your deployment zone by turn 2.

This means your CML can reach anywhere on the board by turn 2, the turn that your deepstriking terminators may come in.

On a smaller board, say 4'x4', the terminators will dominate the board off of turn 1.

Yes, you should slog them. Unless you are Deathwing and you can teleport in on turn 1.

[Br0ther Rafen]

It also depends on if you have more than one Terminator Squad in your army. if you do, then they are excellent at providing good support when they deep strike, hitting the opponent were it hurts at an unexpected angle. if a single terminator squad, however, it would depend on what army you are versing. If versing, say, Imperial guard, then deep striking is a good way to ensure that your Terms will get there in one piece, while making the Guard player panic because he has to kill the "big bad machine monsters" before they kill his precious Artillery. If your going against Bugs, however, then foot slogging lets you get another turn (if they came down on Turn 2) of shooting the horde, or Deep Striking them to contest an objective in their deployment zone.

It's really something which should be used appropriatly depending on your tactical options and situation.

[Loyalist]

I've brought them in by drop pod to good effect as half the pods have to come in on turn one.

 

Delivery by Stormraven didn't work as it was a priority target and immediately shot down, resulting in footslogging termies. (I've only tried it once.)

[KhorneHunter57x]

It also depends on if you have more than one Terminator Squad in your army.

I think this is very true. One squad of Teleporting Termies doesn't do much, but two or three can be pretty powerful. It increases the chances that some will arrive early, and 10+ Terminators arriving near your opponent's army is sure to mess up their plans. I personally use three 5-man squads that teleport in, and I have found them to be brutally effective.

 

If you have just one squad, then I would footslog them. With two or more squads, however, I would deep strike them.

[Dremen]

as ALrdo'Blood pointed out the benefits of DS does depend on the size of your table. Another considerable factor on that mental track is the intervening terrain. If you can set Termies up to have good charge routes or with Overwatch Snipers / Devs. / Etc. then you can footslog them with reliable effect.

 

Deepstrikes tradeoff is that yes you may have to wait. There are major advantages to having to wait on them though. One is the pure Baddiosity, or epicness if you will, of Tactical Dreads showing up at the last minute to spread indiscriminate justice to your enemies via massive amounts of sustained fire or fist-to-face justice. Or More pragmatically showing up in time to be an imovable object on an objective late in the game.

 

If all else fails... you could take a Ravenwing squad as Allies, or more likely as us just doing our own thing and giving you a hand, for thier teleport homers. Itll take some of the Randomness out of the DS.

[DarkGuard]

I've brought them in by drop pod to good effect as half the pods have to come in on turn one.

 

Delivery by Stormraven didn't work as it was a priority target and immediately shot down, resulting in footslogging termies. (I've only tried it once.)

 

May I ask how you're bringing them in by Drop Pod. If I recall only Space Wolves can deep strike Terminators via Drop Pods. Space Marines, Dark Angels and Blood Angels cannot because they can teleport normally (not sure about Black Templars).

 

To answer the original question, teleporting Terminators is highly dependent on the situation. You cannot truly decide until you see what your opponent has, his deployment if you're going second, the terrain on the board etc. If you choose to teleport them then they can be a great game changer, but it's not without risks. If you choose to footslog them you'll get more out of them, but then they are under the pressure of enemy firepower from the beginning.

 

If I were to crudely simplify the debate, I'd say that if you have a squad of 10 then you deploy them on the board, from the beginning. If they have a cyclone you also deploy them on the board. Assault cannon and heavy flamer 5 man squads should deep strike unless the situation says so otherwise. These weapons have fantastic impact value, and this is gained best when deep striking to counteract what your enemy does. Cyclone squads are more about reliably, solid firepower, and so benefit more from being on the board at the start.

 

Hope that's helped.

[Something Wycked]

May I ask how you're bringing them in by Drop Pod. If I recall only Space Wolves can deep strike Terminators via Drop Pods. Space Marines, Dark Angels and Blood Angels cannot because they can teleport normally (not sure about Black Templars).

 

I found out recently (the hard way) that there's no specific rule against Terminators being inside drop pods; neither of them say anything about it being disallowed the way Jump Pack equipped models have restrictions. Just have to abide by their counts-as-2-models and stuff only 5 or 6 of them in a pod, and watch your opponent's eyes bug out.

[spartan249]

Drop Pods can only be taken as a dedicated transport for a unit, where terminators do not have the option to take one.

 

The only way you could do it is if you bought a drop pod for another unit, deployed that unit normally, then gave the termies a ride in the pod instead. Roundabout, and the only way for them to get a pod.

 

Good way to DS your HF termies if you have units around who don't need transports (like shooty dreads).

[DarkGuard]

spartan249 has it half right. There is no option for Terminators to go in Drop Pods, as they are purchased as dedicated transports for other units. However, the key thing to remember about dedicated transports is that there are restrictions in who can deploy in them at the beginning of the game. It is clearly stated that only the unit which purchased the transport, plus any ICs that can fit, are allowed to deploy in it at the beginning of the game. Therefore, you cannot buy your Drop Pod for another unit, deploy them normally and then stick Terminators in them. And you can't embark them later as it misses the point of what a Drop Pod does and you can't embark in a Drop Pod after it has landed anyway. Therefore, for all Codices except Space Wolves, there are no ways for Terminator squads to embark on Drop Pods. Terminators ICs, on the other hand, are at perfect liberty to provided that there is room, just remember that they take up two spaces.

[Algesan]

Black Templars can put them in the Pods, but they cannot drop on turn 1 and have to wait until the reserve rolls begin.

[thade]

Drop Pods can only be taken as Dedicated Transports. Once models have disembarked from the Drop Pod, no models can ever embark back into it again for the remainder of the game, per the Drop Pod's own rules. Per the BRB, only the unit for which a Dedicated Transport was purchases can deploy embarked within it.

 

Terminators have only the option to take Land Raider variants as their Dedicated Transports...they do not have the option to take Drop Pods.

 

Bottom line is that the vanilla codex definitely does not allow for Terminators to deploy in Drop Pods.

[Something Wycked]

Actually, everyone is fairly misguided on this lol...

 

From the BRB errata:

 

Q: Can a unit start the game embarked in a non-dedicated

transport vehicle? (p92)

A: Yes, as long as its unit type is allowed to embark onto

that vehicle and it does not exceed the transport capacity.

 

From the C:SM errata:

 

Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad

inside? (p69)

A: Yes you can.

 

A transport is "dedicated" if it was taken as a transport for a particular unit; as long as that unit is on the table, no other unit can make use of that transport. However, you can also take any "Dedicated Transport" without a squad inside. This is seen in the GW ruling on the empty Drop Pods, and it is at its most clear in the Blood Angels codex where Land Raiders do not occupy a FOC slot- they are simply listed in the Dedicated Transports section. Try telling a MechGuard player that they can't take their empty Chimeras anymore and see what happens :D

 

We know that it is legal for a model in Terminator armor to occupy a Drop pod because they are not specifically prohibited the way models with Jump Packs are excluded from Rhinos etc., and it is fully possible to attach e.g. Darnath Lysander to a squad inside a Pod.

 

Put it all together, and this is how it works: purchase a Drop Pod on its own, purchase a Terminator squad, insert them into the Pod pre-deployment. Presto!

[thade]

You're confused, Something Wicked. Certainly you can drop an empty Drop Pod on the table. Nobody is disputing that. However, with the vanilla Marine Codex, there is no way to deploy a Terminator Squad via Drop Pod...other than having the pod come in and them use the Locator Beacon on it to teleport down best case the following turn.

 

Terminators cannot take the Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport, therefore some other unit must have taken it as its own Dedicated Transport. Only the unit that purchased the Dedicated Transport can start the game inside of it, per the transport chapter. You can't buy a Drop Pod unless it's somebody's Dedicated Transport; perhaps that's where you're getting confused?

 

"Where does it say you can't take a Drop Pod on it's own?"

 

Show me where it fits in the Force Org chart. =)

 

"Oh."

 

I can see possibly people thinking "Well, if it doesn't take up a Force Org slot, i can just take as many as I want!!1" So you're telling me I can take a dozen drop pods - all empty - and first turn wall you in with six drop pods, all for the low low price of 400-ish points? Now while you're trying to Tank Shock/blast your way out of that drop pod wall, I'm just going to mosey my scoring units over to the objectives and rain more drop pods down on you to keep you walled in.

 

Sounds kinda dumb, no? Good thing you can only buy things that take up Force Org slots. <3

 

EDIT: I should note that you can kind of do this...but you'd have a very specific list which would all be foot-slogging...tactical squads, foot-slogging assault squads, devestators, etc...all having given up their drop pods and waddling their ways to objectives.

[KhorneHunter57x]

A transport is "dedicated" if it was taken as a transport for a particular unit; as long as that unit is on the table, no other unit can make use of that transport. However, you can also take any "Dedicated Transport" without a squad inside. This is seen in the GW ruling on the empty Drop Pods, and it is at its most clear in the Blood Angels codex where Land Raiders do not occupy a FOC slot- they are simply listed in the Dedicated Transports section. Try telling a MechGuard player that they can't take their empty Chimeras anymore and see what happens :)

No, it doesn't really work that way. From Page 67 of the BRB, in the Dedicated Transports box:

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only cary the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry...

Just because it can only carry the unit it was selected with doesn't mean that it has to carry that unit. You can deploy a Dedicated Transport empty (as shown on Page 92 of the BRB, under Multiple Unit Choices), and GW's ruling on empty Pods just reflects this.

[Something Wycked]

So I get to thank the famous exact-to-the-millimeter wording of GW's again?

 

Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (p69)

A: Yes you can.

 

"On its own" would seem to indicate you can take it... on its own. If that isn't the case, then even their errata needs... an errata.

 

"Where does it say you can't take a Drop Pod on it's own?"

 

Show me where it fits in the Force Org chart. =)

 

"Oh."

 

The BT's Emperor's Champion not only does not use a FOC slot, but it also counts as the required HQ choice.

 

By the reasoning presented here, BA's can't take Land Raiders, either...

 

This is goofy.

[thade]

The BT's Emperor's Champion not only does not use a FOC slot, but it also counts as the required HQ choice.

 

By the reasoning presented here, BA's can't take Land Raiders, either...

 

This is goofy.

 

One thing that will help you here is NOT using a pre-5th Edition codex as a precedent for the Fifth Ed. rulebook. =) (An early 4th Edition codex at that; poor BT are in need of an update.)

 

You can't take something in your list if it neither 1. fits into a Force Org slot, or 2. is permitted by something that is already in a Force Org slot in your list.

[KhorneHunter57x]

The BT's Emperor's Champion not only does not use a FOC slot, but it also counts as the required HQ choice.

That is because the Emperor's Champion is under the HQ region of the Force Org. Chart, and it has been FAQed to be able to be used as the sole HQ.

 

Dedicated Transports have no such rule. They are under the "Dedicated Transports" section of the Codex, but there is no "Dedicated Transports" section in the Force Org. Chart.

 

It is true that the Blood Angels can only take Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports, as they are not under any legal Force Org. Chart category.

[spartan249]

Bleh. In any case, Terminators can't use drop pods normally. Go to C:SWs for that sort of stuff.

[DarkGuard]

At risk of turning this into a rules debate, I'm afraid you've got this very wrong Something Wycked. Drop Pods are a dedicated transport, which can only be purchased with another unit. There is no DT slot on the Force Organisation chart, and so therefore you cannot take a DT like a Rhino, Drop Pod, or in the Blood Angel's case a Land Raider variant, without first purchasing a unit that can ride in it. Once you have done this, that is the only unit that can deploy in it. Now, for vehicles like Razorbacks etc, you can easily put another unit in it later, that is allowed. So if you wanted to you could deploy the unit that purchased the DT outside of it, and stick another unit in it in the first turn, provided it fits.

 

Now Drop Pods you are, again, allowed to not deploy in it, and so it will deploy empty. However, you cannot then put something else in it, as once a Drop Pod deploys nothing else can embark in it, and nothing except the unit that purchased it as a DT can deploy in it at the start of the game. Therefore, if Terminators don't have a transport entry for Drop Pods, then they cannot deploy in one, if you want them to deploy in Drop Pods, then as spartan249 rightly says, look at the Space Wolves Codex, they get to deploy in them.

 

Also, looking at a fluff perspective, there is no reason as to why Terminators should have to deploy in Drop Pods. Likewise this is why Assault Marines and Vangaurd Vets with jump packs can't deploy by Drop Pod. They already have the means to deep strike, or to deploy right into the middle of the enemy. Terminators through teleportation, Assault Marines through low altitude drops controlled by their jump packs. Drop Pods were designed and are deployed to give other Space Marine units the means to strike into the heart of the enemy, so power armoured Vet squad without jump packs, Tactical Marines, Devastator Marines and jump packless Assault squads. They are also useful for vehicles such as the Dreadnought and artillery pieces like the TFC. They therefore ensure that the traditional strike forces don't go without support on initial planetfall. The only reason Space Wolf Terminator squads don't teleport is that they don't like/trust it, and so therefore stick to Drop Pods.

[raganrkob]

Well about whether or not is it worth to deep strike the termies I say it depends if you opponent has deep striking/outflanking stuff or not.

 

It's not nice when your opponent drops 1 or 2 squads at full strength by turn 3-4, so it's nice to have some reserves on you own. Or simply reinforce a part of your army that is being attacked by a couple of enemy deep-striking units. All this of course in a sort of "ideal setting" because many times the reserve rolls just don't agree with you.

 

I any other situation I agree with those who recommend foot-slogging them and blast stuff away with the Cyclone!

[Validar]

Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (p69)

A: Yes you can.

 

"On its own" would seem to indicate you can take it... on its own. If that isn't the case, then even their errata needs... an errata.

 

Holy crap. I think you're read this like the devil reads the bible...

I don't think there is any doubt: Can I take a drop pod for my tacticals and then deploy the pod without the tacticals inside it? Yeah, sure you can.

 

Only units with the "are allowed to buy a dedicated transport" opens up for the possibility of buying a dedicated transport. You're suggesting that you can just fill up your list with drop pods (or rhinos, razorbacks) "on their own" - with no squads to select it? Why the hell wouldn't you just fill up a list with razorbacks without units?

And why would some units have the ability to "select a dedicated transport" if you could just buy them as you please? Heck, why would it even be called a dedicated transport?

 

No need for a second errata, just don't try to bend their words :P