Kassill Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Wait? People are upset that BA players are utilising fast rhino chasis? That's like Space Wolves getting upset that other SW players are using T-wolves, or BT's getting upset for having aspirants (scout like guys?) in there squads as wound soaks, or a DW player using Terminators. Doesnt make sense to me, but maybe that's just me. :) Some SW players are completely disdainful of Thunderwolves in all their forms.Anywho.... Im solidly for Razorback spam. I enjoy watching my opponents armies crumple quickly and then dealing with the cleanup. Seriously- taking out 8 AV 11 vehicles? Peice of cake. Ive yet to see a razor-spam army that could stand up to solid firepower. Yeah, I kinda forgot about that when I was posting. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefoserpent Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I also use 3 AC Razorbacks and I must say I am really content with them. Now you can all go and say stuff about spam , mindless gaming etc , I was of the same opinion until tried the RB I also use 10 DC with Reclusiarch , half with bolters , half with PW n PF. Now , what's more fun than focusing all the list around 10 madmen trying to find some glorious death? At the end of the day , the point is to gather some victories , the game is always fun for me , it's when I stack up losses that I am questioning my skills , or my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 They are so cheap, that they aren't there to be survivable. And trust me, if you are wasting shots on Razorbacks that means that there's vindicators and/or Baals running amok. Plus they should all be Shielded by a Librarian, and/or smoke The whole point of AssBack spam is to provide a target saturation and keep enough of your army alive to either snatch objectives last turn or swamp and overrun weak points in the enemies lines in KP missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I haven't faced a razorback spam list since late 3rd edition, but I don't play with non-friends much. I don't care what others play with although I am guilty of being upset by army lists that seem to be nothing more than beat sticks. I do have 3 razorbacks, only one of them of the assault cannon variety. I do have three dakka Baals and four rhinos as well, but I started playing this list with the PDF rules because I want a jump pack army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Wait? People are upset that BA players are utilising fast rhino chasis? That's like Space Wolves getting upset that other SW players are using T-wolves, or BT's getting upset for having aspirants (scout like guys?) in there squads as wound soaks, or a DW player using Terminators. Doesnt make sense to me, but maybe that's just me. ^_^ no its not the fact that angels are using our tanks...its razor spam lists in general is what the complaint is. They are repetitive show no imagination and rather easy to beat. Thats basically all that this entire thing is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Im sure most DoA armies would destroy Razor spam. Mine for example has 11 melta shots and 2 lances @1750 hitting up to 8 different targets when they drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I use three razorbacks with heavy bolters in my dual stormraven list. I generally take them as they're cheap and conceal a five man squad with a melta gun and meltabombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 DoA > Razorspam I think the razorspam build has attracted a lot of players new to BA looking for a point and click net list. G ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 RazorSpam doesnt care about Melta at all. They arent there to survive. Its not a Land Raider list. DoA lists get peppered with Pie Plates and Assault Cannon shots focus fire. The whole point of RazorSpam is it is rapid response. It can redeploy very easily and still fire at full effect using the Fast Rhino chasis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 RazorSpam doesnt care about Melta at all. They arent there to survive. Its not a Land Raider list. DoA lists get peppered with Pie Plates and Assault Cannon shots focus fire. The whole point of RazorSpam is it is rapid response. It can redeploy very easily and still fire at full effect using the Fast Rhino chasis This maybe so, but any smart DoA player will always go for the pie-platters first then focus on the RB. Even with 3-6 Assault Cannons most of the shots would be bounced off of FnP as well as Shield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 So.... much... DoA snobbery... can't breathe... must hide... in my air-conditioned... Razorback... Ahhh. That's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 RazorSpam doesnt care about Melta at all. They arent there to survive. Its not a Land Raider list. DoA lists get peppered with Pie Plates and Assault Cannon shots focus fire. The whole point of RazorSpam is it is rapid response. It can redeploy very easily and still fire at full effect using the Fast Rhino chasis I don't understand this post at all. Saying a mech army doesn't care about melta is like saying a cop doesn't care about robbers... or a bugger care about a snotrag... maybe an ice cube to a microwave. While losing a third of your army a turn shouldn't make you :P your pants, but "not care about melta at all" seems crazy. The ability melta isn't the only thing that matters... squad laying down 2-4 str 8 ap 1 shots, regardless of single or double die pen doesn't matter if you're hittin 10/11 armor. Again, I don't even comprehend you saying what you did... that's like, a green tide person saying he doesn't care if there is 20 flamers and 3 ww in an army. Worst thing razor can cough at DoA is a line breaker, which dies on the bottom of 2. now you have a full inf army against a gimp army of WL LC, some heavy bolters (oh noes)... oh yeah, cant forget about the 5 man assault squads... I shake at the thought of 5 Assault marines and a flamer running into sang guard or VV... This inst me attacking ppl who run razor spam; different strokes different folks... Its a GREAT list for new ppl to get in the game and stomp other new ppl. Its amazing looking, I love the way it looks... Its cheaper for the dollar than some armies... I think its a great list. But if one were say it murders DoA in the butt it would be a little bit of a lie. The meta in most places is heavy mech/MC... most DoA lists are going to be heavy anti mech if they plan on heavy touries (at least in the north east Ohio and all of north Carolina regions). A heavy anti mech Deep strike army vs... mech... doesn't take a fortune teller to see the uphill battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 So.... much... DoA snobbery... can't breathe... must hide... in my air-conditioned... Razorback... Ahhh. That's better. I know what you mean, personaly i prefer Stormravens unloading an SG squad plus a Talon furioso onto taregt followed by a charge to DoA. Next month i can finaly retire my Guard valks and use proper Raven models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Wow Mr. Nagol sounds like you inserted foot in mouth. ;) G :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I don't understand this post at all. Saying a mech army doesn't care about melta is like saying a cop doesn't care about robbers... or a bugger care about a snotrag... maybe an ice cube to a microwave. While losing a third of your army a turn shouldn't make you :) your pants, but "not care about melta at all" seems crazy. The ability melta isn't the only thing that matters... squad laying down 2-4 str 8 ap 1 shots, regardless of single or double die pen doesn't matter if you're hittin 10/11 armor. Again, I don't even comprehend you saying what you did... that's like, a green tide person saying he doesn't care if there is 20 flamers and 3 ww in an army. Worst thing razor can cough at DoA is a line breaker, which dies on the bottom of 2. now you have a full inf army against a gimp army of WL LC, some heavy bolters (oh noes)... oh yeah, cant forget about the 5 man assault squads... I shake at the thought of 5 Assault marines and a flamer running into sang guard or VV... This inst me attacking ppl who run razor spam; different strokes different folks... Its a GREAT list for new ppl to get in the game and stomp other new ppl. Its amazing looking, I love the way it looks... Its cheaper for the dollar than some armies... I think its a great list. But if one were say it murders DoA in the butt it would be a little bit of a lie. The meta in most places is heavy mech/MC... most DoA lists are going to be heavy anti mech if they plan on heavy touries (at least in the north east Ohio and all of north Carolina regions). A heavy anti mech Deep strike army vs... mech... doesn't take a fortune teller to see the uphill battle. It doesn't care about melta. It cares about high St shots. Massed missiles and auto cannon are probably more threatening than 2 meltaguns dropping down next to you and popping a 70pt transport with a 6 man squad that can still take objectives and hold its own in combat as well. The strength in RazorSpam is not in its survivability of the armour, it is in its ability to bring down massed numbers on a specific point of the board at any given moment and still be as effective in it's firepower output than it would be if it had remained absolutely stationary. Yes, you can indeed land, and hopefully get a nice rear shot at a vindicator and remove that threat, but the point of spamming the Razor units is so you get a large number of threats there. I run my list in convoys with MM attack bike, vindicator and razorback together against DoA lists, so that any losses are minimalised and end up being pawn exchanges. If you drop an assault squad down and fire, then you will be in tight formation to take the other pie plate on your head with its 36" effective range, along with the other Razorbacks and meltabikes. and thats only at 1500pts. At 2000pts there's even more things to shoot you up on reaction with minimum 36" effective threat range. That's even considering that the Razorspam player actually deploys his units on the board at all. DoA can be an effective build, but it isn't the easy-answer to BA mech. There are certainly tactics which can reduce losses to alpha strike whilst still allowing you to focus fire the huddled deep striking marines in your next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 DoA has both the speed and weapons to drop multiple transports/tanks on the initial turns they drop robbing the razorspam of its starting strength, so DoA starts off with an advantage. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 What are we running at 1500? 3 RAS with 2 melta in each and a Honour guard with 2-4 melta in it? that's only 2 vehicles a turn for the first 3 turns at best, and you are giving up your run move so are horrifically susceptible to pieplates. And until you get your Librarian down, you are very very susceptible to psychic assaults. The problem with DoA lists is you have to rely on a number of things to go right in sequence, and playing Blood Bowl for 15 years has taught me that is not a successful long term strategy. Playing mainly RazorSpam since the dex was released, I have learnt not to be precious with my vehicles at all, and make sure that I am systematically removing more points worth of targets than I am losing so that the last 2 turns I have the strength in numbers to rush objectives with my 18" move. 24" with the MeltaBikes. And playing against DoA, the only thing that can actually do any damage to Fast moving vehicles are the meltaguns, so they definitely get focus fired with the full force of my army. Of course you can get 3 units in turn 2 if you are lucky and vaporise both my vindicators and a Razor to leave me in ruins, but that isn't really something you can bank on. And if you are bringing don just 2 units a turn, in tight formation, it is a problem for you to face off against 1500pts of marines who can reach you with their full shooting force with just 500pts of squads appearing per turn. And whether it is a Sang Guard unit or a VGV, they really are no threat at all needing 6s to hit my vehicles in CC (unless you are paying for Dante to land SG with IPs and thats 1 less squad you can take and no psychic defence for you) Massed Fast mech is good fun to play. It really is like playing cavalry outriders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Sama has a good point that I don't think people are acknowledging. Anyways, I really don't comprehend why people are arguing. There's more than one way to play our Codex. Isn't that a good thing? We have multiple viable builds. There's no sense in arguing that your preferred build is superior because it's more viable, or more interesting, or more fluffy, or so on. If you run a DoA list — and I do, myself! — you are NOT superior to Razorback players. You are not a better Blood Angels fan than them. We're all on the same team guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 It doesn't care about melta. It cares about high St shots. Massed missiles and auto cannon are probably more threatening than 2 meltaguns dropping down next to you and popping a 70pt transport with a 6 man squad that can still take objectives and hold its own in combat as well. The strength in RazorSpam is not in its survivability of the armour, it is in its ability to bring down massed numbers on a specific point of the board at any given moment and still be as effective in it's firepower output than it would be if it had remained absolutely stationary. Yes, you can indeed land, and hopefully get a nice rear shot at a vindicator and remove that threat, but the point of spamming the Razor units is so you get a large number of threats there. I run my list in convoys with MM attack bike, vindicator and razorback together against DoA lists, so that any losses are minimalised and end up being pawn exchanges. If you drop an assault squad down and fire, then you will be in tight formation to take the other pie plate on your head with its 36" effective range, along with the other Razorbacks and meltabikes. and thats only at 1500pts. At 2000pts there's even more things to shoot you up on reaction with minimum 36" effective threat range. That's even considering that the Razorspam player actually deploys his units on the board at all. DoA can be an effective build, but it isn't the easy-answer to BA mech. There are certainly tactics which can reduce losses to alpha strike whilst still allowing you to focus fire the huddled deep striking marines in your next turn. The part I don't agree with is vacuum ideology I believe you're using here. 1 AS with 2 melta guns vs a vindi, 5 man AS, MM attack bike, and an TW-AC RB, and some other vindi that's immune to all dmg is not whats going to happen. I would say the AS is pretty dead, but in the above match up thats like... 250 points vs about 600. The chance of a line breaker, much less a solo vindi, living through bottom of 2 is just terrible. Your tanks are not dealing with two melta guns, they're deaing with 12 or 15, depending on the list and what all makes it in on 2. As far as a deployment issue and whos on the board at what time, the DoA player will have first shot advantage in any scenario I can think of. The Soonest the AS can come in are top of 2, if they lost the who goes first roll. So the Vindis must come in before reserves start being rolled on. As far as the entire mech army coming to focus on one target, they may, or may not, even kill it. Razor spam lists just dont have the fire power to kill 3 or 4 squads a turn, but anti mech DoA can kill 3 or 4 tanks, easily. We're both defending our lists. Like I said before, razor spam is fine as are the people who play it. I even agree that razor spam can beat DoA, but not every game, and it wont be easy. If your mech army can beat different DoA lists every game, every time, and they're easy wins - a multitude of things must be happening: first you're the Jesus Christ of 40k, the players you are playing against suck, and so do their lists. If you crush DoA as much as you sound like you do, you just need to stay away for NE Ohio. Sama has a good point that I don't think people are acknowledging. Anyways, I really don't comprehend why people are arguing. There's more than one way to play our Codex. Isn't that a good thing? We have multiple viable builds. There's no sense in arguing that your preferred build is superior because it's more viable, or more interesting, or more fluffy, or so on. If you run a DoA list — and I do, myself! — you are NOT superior to Razorback players. You are not a better Blood Angels fan than them. We're all on the same team guys. Eh, I dont think Nagol and I are fighting. Im only trying to defend my army against the idea that the best tactical option for me against his army is to lay down and die. I also agree that its great that we can have two very diverse lists and have all our lil doods still painted the same. And, if there was a "who is the better BA fan" award, clearly its Nagol... he has like 200x the posts I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Oh I am in no way saying it is a free win at all. But the one strength I have over DoA is you are getting your army down in 2 or 3 units a turn, So I can gang up on your isolated units with my *remaining* forces* And at 1500pts you are only getting 15 meltaguns if you start adding costly combi weapons onto your sanguinary priests Edit: and it is only 15 x the number of posts lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 What are you going to shoot first - a razorback or a Vindi? There will be two Vindis at most. I run a Stormraven and can pop them at range. Razor spam lists just dont have the fire power to kill 3 or 4 squads a turn, but anti mech DoA can kill 3 or 4 tanks, easily. That is it in a nutshell. G :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I didn't mean anyone specifically Till! I understand what you're doing for sure. Defending your preferred build is one thing. It's just cracking on other people's builds that's bothering me. Me, I play DoA for two reasons: 1. An all-jump army was what attracted me to the army in the first place. 2. I'm not very good at building vehicles, and so don't own many. I'm actually slowly transitioning to mechanized because I'd like to give RazorSpam a try eventually, it's just low priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Both lists have their merits. Besides, why are we talking about DOA vs Assback? has Jim Swallow incited another civil war? Im intending to build 2K DOA and 2K Mech so i get a handle on how both the army's work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Storm Raven isn't really DoA list though, that's hybrid. And Storm Ravens make my eyes light up like christmas considering the probability of taking it down with TL Ass Cannon That's why I run 2 Vindicators though. I expect one to die first turn haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 You know what...forget all of you. Deep striking land raiders wants to have a word with doa and razorspam! MWHAHAHAHAHH!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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