Till Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Oh I am in no way saying it is a free win at all. But the one strength I have over DoA is you are getting your army down in 2 or 3 units a turn, So I can gang up on your isolated units with my *remaining* forces* And at 1500pts you are only getting 15 meltaguns if you start adding costly combi weapons onto your sanguinary priests Edit: and it is only 15 x the number of posts lol I do run combimelta with priests. Its 12 melta in 3 troops choices alone. That doesn't count the bombs on VV, blood lances on HQ and melta, 4 plasma on honor guard, and melta Sang guard. This stance makes it weaker vs horde, but horde is rare in tourny play in my experiences. I'd gladly be weaker against green tide to have a better set up vs leaf blower and space wolf cheese. I make it a point to have strong anti mech in every unit in the list. So if I get a crappy turn 2 drop, I still have stong anti armor. And plz plz plz, I'm not the end all be all of DoA, but I ran a line breaker vanilla/mech list for years, I know the fundamentals of mech based armies very well. Short of deploying in a corner with your armor 3in apart with vindis in the middle of the block of tanks, I never learned anything else that could take massed melta alpha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 IP on the sergeants? And if you have HG, VGV and SG thats definitely 2000 or 2250 pts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 IP on the sergeants? And if you have HG, VGV and SG thats definitely 2000 or 2250 pts! Its 2k. I missed one of your posts in on page two :unsure: . I noticed you talking about 2-3 squads coming in on 2. I've never had that happen. 4's rerolled, thats 75% of your army on turn 2 statistically, rest come in on 3. I'v had games where the entire army came down on 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 You never want to reserve versus DoA. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 IP on the sergeants? And if you have HG, VGV and SG thats definitely 2000 or 2250 pts! Its 2k. I missed one of your posts in on page two :unsure: . I noticed you talking about 2-3 squads coming in on 2. I've never had that happen. 4's rerolled, thats 75% of your army on turn 2 statistically, rest come in on 3. I'v had games where the entire army came down on 2. you could squeeze it into 1850 with care:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 With regards to possibilty to come in take an example of a game I had 2 weeks ago against mech vanilla marines which had 2 x razors 3 x preds and a raider. I told him to smoke at his turn 2 so he'd be ready for my melts and then after 3 of my big units not turning up after rolling 1's and 2's for re-rolls I stopped rerolling my other units which suprisingly all failed too. They came in turn 3 , he had no smoke, his preds + razors were dead or out of action on the drop and turn 4 my Libby lanced his raider exploding it. This game was @ 1750 points and he also had 2 pods in. 11 Meltas + 2 lances ruined his day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 If I have to go first or my opponent reserves his army typically I wont reroll my reserves - then as stated above everything comes in on the third turn and all the smoke has blown away... Then the meltas start popping... It can get nasty real fast. If you play it right you can handle just about any situation that comes along (assuming your dice at least roll average). I think a Stormraven ferrying a squad of jump infantry and a dreadnaught fits in well with the background for a DoA army - even more so if you're running a Librarian Furioso with Wings. It's very unique to be able to transport a jump unit in a fast skimmer - no one else can do it either as we all know. It brings an eldar aspect (no pun intended ;)) to the army. I want my hardest hitting units in the Stormraven. It's very survivable and if you hold it in reserve it will typically come in on turn 3 or 4 so by then if you are playing your army right you've negated most threats that have a chance to bring it down. I think as soon as the official model is released it will become a staple unit for DoA armies and one is all you really need. G :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'm tired of seeing it in every space marine list. The tank is used to support rhino mounted squads by adding a mobile heavy weapon. I use it as such. Others use it exclusively which is fine since it's their army. Seeing that kind of army really saps my spirit a bit since to me I'm not looking a space marine force. A space marine force has rhinos, razorbacks for the command squad, predators rolling up and speeders going by to destroy targets. Assault marines follow in the wake. Second, being faced with so many armored targets stresses me out as I do not build lists to combat a dozen tanks. I'm playing to kill everything. Third, the squads are so tiny it's pathetic. "Yeah I play Blood Angels but all I have is these 15 guys for my entire 2000 point army." Are you serious? They're wimpy little squads that couldn't stand up to a fight with a dozen flash lights. Fourth, a matter of personal preference but having a dozen tanks on my side of the table is way to cramped for my style and the lack of flexibility in the army as far as methods of attack is frustrating and boring. Call me a romantic in a grimdark movie-esque sense but that's not how I like to play. Fifth, I have 1 razorback so I haven't tried the list. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 that's your interpretation of the fluff as it is presented. which doesnt have anything to do with playing the game and trying to pick a list that will win tournaments. such is life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 that's your interpretation of the fluff as it is presented. which doesnt have anything to do with playing the game and trying to pick a list that will win tournaments. such is life LOLOL and your razorspam list will win tourneys? :) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 that's your interpretation of the fluff as it is presented. which doesnt have anything to do with playing the game and trying to pick a list that will win tournaments. such is life LOLOL and your razorspam list will win tourneys? :) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I don't think that's what Nagol was saying at all. This HOBBY is not about crushing people in tournaments, though that can be one aspect. I think the Razor spam list is fine. It looks great, and is just as fluffy as a DoA list. I can think of many instances that a BA group would go out light with only a handful of marines with tons of tanks. Look at the Flesh Tearers (which is Nagols army mind you), they are very under manned due to the black rage. That means they could have more gear than guys to use it. I think its mighty fluffy! And, I would imagine he can win tournies, even more so if his meta is heavy horde. This is a hobby... not a game. If one is looking to crush people and talk :cuss after you win get a plug'n'play system like an xbox or playstation; they're cheaper, more people play, quicker to get into, more variability, and unless you're a great painter have a better resale... All this being said, I love you all... you make my pants happy. no homo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 LOLOL and your razorspam list will win tourneys? :) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You know you sound like an idiot? I'm building a DoA army myself, but you guys are really letting the side down, and yourselves. If you are this childish when it comes to variants of your codex I really hope I don't play ye. Whether or not Razorspam or DoA is less or more fun, I doubt I\'d have much fun playing ye if ye are coming into a game with that attitude. Mods, normally ye are on the ball, but ye should have been doling out warnings when there was stuff like this coming out. i dont mind facing them, but its a pity mst of the Assback generals are censored.gif s themselves. Truthfully, this thread stopped being constructive after Samanogols post comparing Razorback to cavalry outriders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 This thread is fine. I love this thread, there is no flaming, there is no overt aggression... plz dont lock it. This thread has content and subject matter; more than people saying they agree with eveyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'll be honest with you and can say I have never been really bothered by heavy melta saturation. Yes, Razorbacks can be popped easily by Meltaguns, but you have to remember the whole point of spamming them is they cost practically nothing. In order to pop my 55 point Assault Cannon platform (which is cheaper than a Terminator carrying one and VASTLY more survivable may I add) you need to deploy 300pts of models in tight formation. Yes, the 2 Vindicators can get destroyed turn 2 as well, if that happens I will most likely lose. But if I am playing an alpha strike army then you can be sure they are within range of my Librarian's Razorback to at least get a 1 in 3 chance of avoiding any damage. I find the strength of my RazorSpam list to be at 1500pts because it has a great deal of firepower within that points range. I should also note that I run a 5 man DC unit in a FlamerBack with PW and Fist as well rather than a 4th scoring unit for the very reason of counter assault. If I was playing 2000pts I would probably go for a unit of Sanguinary Guard held in reserve with a Priest as a 2nd counter assault unit, as well as a pair of Autocannon/Lascannon Preds so the Vindicators can focus on heavy infantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Again, I'm still with Nagol on this: that's your interpretation of the fluff as it is presented. which doesnt have anything to do with playing the game and trying to pick a list that will win tournaments. such is life In Codex Space Marines is a quote where Chapter Master Stronos of the Iron Hands wishes he had enough Razorbacks to field his entire Chapter in them! While I'm sure dear Stronos was only given over to enthusiastic hyperbole, what we can take from this point: the Razorback is perfectly loved and accepted by Astartes leaders, and any given Captain/Librarian/Reclusiarch leading a battle-group may decide that he wants all the Razorbacks he can get his hands on, for any given mission. Saying RazorSpam isn't fluffy, is, well... wrong. Not to mention condescending, elitist, and an unnecessary insult. Besides being all those things, it's above all wrong: an all Razorback battlegroup is perfectly within the bounds of fluff. If I looked in the Codex, I may even be able to find an example on the timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 LOLOL and your razorspam list will win tourneys? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You know you sound like an idiot? I'm building a DoA army myself, but you guys are really letting the side down, and yourselves. If you are this childish when it comes to variants of your codex I really hope I don't play ye. Whether or not Razorspam or DoA is less or more fun, I doubt I\'d have much fun playing ye if ye are coming into a game with that attitude. Mods, normally ye are on the ball, but ye should have been doling out warnings when there was stuff like this coming out. i dont mind facing them, but its a pity mst of the Assback generals are censored.gif s themselves. Truthfully, this thread stopped being constructive after Samanogols post comparing Razorback to cavalry outriders. woah calm down. If you have seen any of my other posts, I joke alot. It wasnt a personal attack at anyone, its just a smiley face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIKU Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Granted im more of a lurker here than a poster, but ive been lurking here for a long time. I remember when the razorspam list became popular for the BA. It was before the new codex when some guy won a tournament in canada(i think?). He had a beefy death company, a unit of attack bikes, then nothing but razor backs. Suddenly razorback lists were everywhere. All it will take is for some guy to when a big tourney by showing up with 50-60 PA models and you will never see the mech lists again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 2 Baals, 1 normal predator, 3 tactical squads in Razorbacks, Lemartes and 5 Jump Pack DC and some attack bikes if I remember correctly. At the time it went against everything that should work for Blood Angels. And it didn't really have any of the strengths of the new BA mech list either, which shows you how effective Razorbacks spamming can be. Now it's cheaper, and the Razors are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't think Lemartes was in the PDF codex. Fortunately Matt Ward brought him back. G :teehee: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebsolom Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't think Lemartes was in the PDF codex. Fortunately Matt Ward brought him back. G ;) Lemartes was most definately in the PDF codex. 125pts of pure killy goodness <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'll be honest with you and can say I have never been really bothered by heavy melta saturation. Yes, Razorbacks can be popped easily by Meltaguns, but you have to remember the whole point of spamming them is they cost practically nothing. In order to pop my 55 point Assault Cannon platform (which is cheaper than a Terminator carrying one and VASTLY more survivable may I add) you need to deploy 300pts of models in tight formation. Yes, the 2 Vindicators can get destroyed turn 2 as well, if that happens I will most likely lose. But if I am playing an alpha strike army then you can be sure they are within range of my Librarian's Razorback to at least get a 1 in 3 chance of avoiding any damage. I find the strength of my RazorSpam list to be at 1500pts because it has a great deal of firepower within that points range. I should also note that I run a 5 man DC unit in a FlamerBack with PW and Fist as well rather than a 4th scoring unit for the very reason of counter assault. If I was playing 2000pts I would probably go for a unit of Sanguinary Guard held in reserve with a Priest as a 2nd counter assault unit, as well as a pair of Autocannon/Lascannon Preds so the Vindicators can focus on heavy infantry My target priority would be going from the bottom of the force org up. You only have 3 heavy slots... so you cant have tons of both preds and vindis. I would target vindis, then preds, next would be baals. While razors are very cheap and cost effective, they just dont deal the firepower to have them be a sooner target. 3, rerolled hitting about all the time with 1 rend. thats 3 normals saves with rerolled 4's.... and one rolled 4. Thats 1-2 guys a turn from a tank. They're strength is their quick movement, which dosnt keep models from contesting, and in order to contest you need to return to the fight, thus putting yourself in range of melta. Ideas? I actually really like this conversation, learning better perspectives and options against mech marines... hopefully you getting ideas against DoA as well. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I remember now - he was the bargain Chaplain !! My how he has been retconned. G :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 DoA > Razorspam I think the razorspam build has attracted a lot of players new to BA looking for a point and click net list. G ;) *ding ding ding* Come on down and claim your prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I infrequently run a Razorspam list, but not like you'd expect. It's all flamers, with all Wolf Guard with Combiflamers, supported with some Long Fangs in Razors with Flamers and a Logan. It's sure as hell not built to win, but damn is it fun! Wached an Imperial Guard player damned near wet himself once my Razors got into his line, Tank Shocked, Flamed, got Exploded to reveal five more flamers inside, each. Razorspam doesn't -have- to be done to win games, it can be done for the sheer hilarity of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Till Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I infrequently run a Razorspam list, but not like you'd expect. It's all flamers, with all Wolf Guard with Combiflamers, supported with some Long Fangs in Razors with Flamers and a Logan. It's sure as hell not built to win, but damn is it fun! Wached an Imperial Guard player damned near wet himself once my Razors got into his line, Tank Shocked, Flamed, got Exploded to reveal five more flamers inside, each. Razorspam doesn't -have- to be done to win games, it can be done for the sheer hilarity of it! ha... all those flamers, its like a sisters list =p. I bet that would have been fun to see the guard player freak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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