Razorback Spam Armies...

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

DoA > Razorspam

 

I think the razorspam build has attracted a lot of players new to BA looking for a point and click net list.

 

G :P

*ding ding ding*

 

Come on down and claim your prize.

 

Hmm yeah, gotta agree there. Any one-trick-pony list, and 40k has had many of them, will always attract folks that believe they can use this list to win without acquiring any real skill... and most of time that turns out to be very far from the truth.

 

The Razorspam list is a list built solely for the purpose of winning; and if that is your sole purpose and all you hope to get out of 40k, well I have no problem with that. Does that make those people bad? ...of course not, and here is where we tread into difficult terrain. There is nothing wrong with the way you choose to enjoy 40k, but if you've built a razorspam army, you've built it to win (first and foremost) and it's silly to try and rationalize it with the 'its still fluffy' argument.

 

With all of the amazing units, and incredible models at our disposal you are going to tell me that you simply just prefer to repeat the same 5 models; for any reason other than winning at all cost? ...sorry that is just a load of bs. Will that list get you automatic wins, hah sadly no, that is what makes it even more ridiculous.

[Till]

Hmm yeah, gotta agree there. Any one-trick-pony list, and 40k has had many of them, will always attract folks that believe they can use this list to win without acquiring any real skill... and most of time that turns out to be very far from the truth.

 

The Razorspam list is a list built solely for the purpose of winning; and if that is your sole purpose and all you hope to get out of 40k, well I have no problem with that. Does that make those people bad? ...of course not, and here is where we tread into difficult terrain. There is nothing wrong with the way you choose to enjoy 40k, but if you've built a razorspam army, you've built it to win (first and foremost) and it's silly to try and rationalize it with the 'its still fluffy' argument.

 

With all of the amazing units, and incredible models at our disposal you are going to tell me that you simply just prefer to repeat the same 5 models; for any reason other than winning at all cost? ...sorry that is just a load of bs. Will that list get you automatic wins, hah sadly no, that is what makes it even more ridiculous.

 

I think razor spam is fluffy to the codex and I don't play them. As I said they're very cool looking too; its the marine version of a tank column. I would bet there is a large group of people who play the list because its fun. Before I started my DoA I was leaning heavily toward razor spam because I too believe its fluffy.

 

Thing I want to know is why is there so much animosity toward the list? If it sucks as bad as everyone says, be happy when you play it in a tourny. I just don't understand where all the dislike is coming from. Its a list, like any other. People are using the excuse "its not fluffy" to illustrate their dislike... There is a post on the WIP... Cosmic Space Knights of Doom http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...725&hl=doom. They're anything but fluffy, but people loved it; its one of the longest threads in in the WIP forums. I'm not Dr. Phil, so Im not gonna go on about what you all have against the list. Save your hate for lists that are bs (heres to you leaf blower/thunderspam).

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Meh... you can find the 'fluff' to justify anything. I've always believed that is part of GW's design. The game is entirely what you want it to be.

 

But to tell me that guys are building their razorspam lists because they think 'its fluffy' is just bs, I'm sorry dude. The razorspam list is built to win-at-all-cost; and there is nothing wrong with that, if that is what you want out of 40k. But I think a lot of the animosity comes from this total bs justification... it's an insult to peoples intelligence really. Just admit it is what it is.

 

Again, with all of the great units and amazing models GW has provided for us - you can honestly tell me, you/whoever chose to repeat the same 5 assault marines because of 'anything but winning'? No... I call hi-jinx.

[Zeller]

Saying RazorSpam isn't fluffy, is, well... wrong. Not to mention condescending, elitist, and an unnecessary insult. Besides being all those things, it's above all wrong: an all Razorback battlegroup is perfectly within the bounds of fluff. If I looked in the Codex, I may even be able to find an example on the timeline.

 

 

Condescending and elitist? I make the fluff claim because that is how the battle companies are setup. Rhinos for every squad except the command squad. Go ahead and enlighten me if I'm wrong but don't make a false accusation.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Save your hate for lists that are bs (heres to you leaf blower/thunderspam).

 

And therein lies the essence of the problem: prejudice. Till here doesn't like Leaf Blower and Thunderspam. Others don't like Razorspam or DoA. Yet others dislike Loganwing, or Vulkan melta-doom, or anything with a Mystic. You get my point. Furthermore, over yesterday and today, a poor guy named Kay looking for advice on using fluffy 1st company armies was brutally massacred and derided by Dark Angel players. I'm not saying we should all hold hands around the campfire and sing 'Kumbaya', but at least be civil and respectful of others' armies and opinions. Sure, you may not like them, but how much does effort does common courtesy really take?

[Brother Weasel]

why does it need to be, or not be, fluffy?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

why does it need to be, or not be, fluffy?

 

It doesn't at all. That's what is so great about 40k... you can get a lot of different things out of it, and there is something for everyone. I just find it simply ridiculous that folks try to say that they are using the Razorspam list 'because its fluffy' ...which is of course, total bs.

[Brother Weasel]

Course its fluffy, cuz they say it is... :D it's like arguing if green is better then yellow. hehe

 

i just play a game, i don't ask my opponent to explain his army to me, i ask what he has and if i don't know wha tit does i ask that... fluff is for message boards and sitting around with friends:)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Course its fluffy, cuz they say it is... :) it's like arguing if green is better then yellow. hehe

 

i just play a game, i don't ask my opponent to explain his army to me, i ask what he has and if i don't know wha tit does i ask that... fluff is for message boards and sitting around with friends:)

 

You've missed the point Bro Weasel... yep you can justify almost anything with fluff. Fluff for some folks is also for the tabletop, not just the message boards or whatever.

 

But the point is; if you tell me that you've built a Razorspam list because its fluffy... well I'd say most often that is a lie. You've built a Razorspam list to 'win-at-all-cost' and then sought ways to justify its fluffiness. 40k is whatever you want it to be, but why lie about your intent or the goals you hope to reach within the game? ...if you want just to win, well that's fine for you; don't lie and tell me, 'no its fluffy - thats why I do it like this'.

[Brother Weasel]

Course its fluffy, cuz they say it is... :) it's like arguing if green is better then yellow. hehe

 

i just play a game, i don't ask my opponent to explain his army to me, i ask what he has and if i don't know wha tit does i ask that... fluff is for message boards and sitting around with friends:)

 

You've missed the point Bro Weasel... yep you can justify almost anything with fluff. Fluff for some folks is also for the tabletop, not just the message boards or whatever.

 

But the point is; if you tell me that you've built a Razorspam list because its fluffy... well I'd say most often that is a lie. You've built a Razorspam list to 'win-at-all-cost' and then sought ways to justify its fluffiness. 40k is whatever you want it to be, but why lie about your intent or the goals you hope to reach within the game? ...if you want just to win, well that's fine for you; don't lie and tell me, 'no its fluffy - thats why I do it like this'.

 

you miss my point my good man.. i say it doesn't matter one way or antoher:) it just doen'st matter if someone wants to justify thier army, or if they think it's fluffy, or what not, it's really just not a reason to argue:)

 

(if i built a razor"spam" list it would be because i have the razors to do it, and i didn't feel like rhinos, or whatever my list is, but then i'm not a normal player, i tend to make a new list each time i go gaming and half the time it's what i have on hand and can pack easy enough hahah)

[SamaNagol]

If you think spamming assault cannons in 5th Ed will get you easy wins then you are in for a shock. RazorSpamming has to be one of the weakest 'point-and-click' builds on the internet. The reason I play it is because it works very similar to my old Water style Grey Knights 2 LR and 3 Rhino IST list.

 

They are reactionary. Cheap (point wise, because anyone who has bothered to click any of my sigs will see I don't do 'cheap' armies when it comes to cost). And they are really good fun to play. Zooming round the table top trying to gang up on units with focus fire until they are weakened enough to get out and assault them to death.

 

DoA is also pretty fun, but I get annoyed when so many things can feasibly go wrong, and if you come up against a strong Tyranid build, you are dead dead dead lol

[Plague Angel]

Saying RazorSpam isn't fluffy, is, well... wrong. Not to mention condescending, elitist, and an unnecessary insult. Besides being all those things, it's above all wrong: an all Razorback battlegroup is perfectly within the bounds of fluff. If I looked in the Codex, I may even be able to find an example on the timeline.

 

 

Condescending and elitist? I make the fluff claim because that is how the battle companies are setup. Rhinos for every squad except the command squad. Go ahead and enlighten me if I'm wrong but don't make a false accusation.

 

Our table-top armies don't represent battle companies. They represent strike-forces that are chosen for battles by their commanders. There are only 2 Assault Squads per regular company. Does that mean that anyone who uses a DoA list is unfluffy? Companies don't have their own veterans or Terminators, those battle-brothers are from 1st Company. So does that mean anyone who takes VV is unfluffy? Companies are led by Captains, and we know how often those are taken in lists. Death Company aren't part of battle-companies; if you're trying to represent a battle-company you can't take them either. Scouts are their own company too.

 

But we use Librarians and Reclusiarchs and Death Company and Terminators because our list represents strike forces chosen from different companies. That's why you can have Terminators and Scouts in the same list. So various Assault Squads from several different companies can all come together under the command of an HQ and each bring their Razorback, and it's perfectly fluffy. In fact, that is the norm; battle companies fighting as their own entities without support from other companies is much more rare.

 

As for condescension and elitism... look at Gunzhard's posts. "If you want to play Razorspam, it's only because you want to play to win, saying it's fluffy is bs."

 

People are saying Razorback lists aren't fluffy and are only trying to powergame. What's inherent in that? "You're a bad person for trying to powergame instead of be fluffy." "I'm better than you because my list is fluffier than yours." "I am so annoyed by people who don't build their lists according to my own preferences and standard of fluff."

[Brother_Dan'l]

I think folks have missed my original point completely.

 

I have nothing against Razorbacks or the people who use them in numbers. What bugged me was the fact that the whole army was designed around the concept of never having to dismount any infantry if at all possible. There were no upgrades to anything. It was all about squeezing every possible point into numbers of AssCanbacks, naked Baals and Vindicators. It's as obnoxious as the old Khorne-lite lists where the whole army was designed to spawn massive Death Companies with free power swords and fists. And it's as boring and unimaginative as the Chimeras full of Melta Vets and similar army concepts. Do I know how to deal with it if I run into it again, using either my hybrid BA or hybrid IG? Easily. Now I know exactly how to target my fire in the first few turns and then clean up the other bits as the game winds down. But that doesn't mean it was fun the first time around.

 

And tournament or not, I'm morally opposed to designing "Baby Seal Clubbing" lists. Save them for the schmuckfest called 'Ard Boyz. ;)

 

And yes, I do realize that what I might see as "gaming the rules to WINWINWIN!" others feel is just playing to win.

[Brother Weasel]

I think folks have missed my original point completely.

 

 

naw, we just get side tracked easy:)

[Plague Angel]

I don't know if you can really call someone else's list "boring." We all have fun in different ways. Some people have fun with vehicle-heavy lists. That's exactly why one of my friends plays Orks: to field as many Trukks as possible and then laugh when they eventually Ramshackle and blow up.

 

If you think the list is boring and obnoxious, that's your projection. Lists aren't obnoxious; players are obnoxious.

[Zeller]

Okay I understand Plague Angel. I thought you were referring to me. *bonks own head*

 

I know commanders assemble their strike forces so the force can do what it needs to do. That's fine. I'm just left wondering where all the rhinos go. I bet there is a garage full of rhinos in a circle talking about their problems.

[Plague Angel]

I bet there is a garage full of rhinos in a circle talking about their problems.

 

This is a story all about a poor, neglected Blood Angels Rhino who ran away from home, and met a Lamenter who was lonely...

[SamaNagol]

5 man naked assault squads inside multiple Razorbacks with Assault Cannons, and Baals with just Assault Cannon turrets alongside a couple vindicators isn't really that good though. It has no teeth to it. You need to be able to dismount and mop up. You need to be able to function as a threat without that AV11 paper thin shell after it gets vaped and you have no AV13 tanks to draw fire away. You need counter assault elements because as was pointed out, assault cannons cannot be relied on to take out sufficient numbers of MEQs on their own.

 

Those lists aren't very good at all, and will lose 9 out of 10 times. You may well lose the first one out of surprise, but it doesn't take George Patton to come back and beat it next time.

[Glendor]

I have what i consider a razor spam list and i put melta guns on all the squads and sometimes a PW also I have found las/plas to be more effective than asscans. I disembark to shoot every now and then. I chose razor spam because i like the look of tanks and started building the army before I really knew anything about the most competitive lists. In fantasy i play brettonia... So saying that all razor spam players are power gamers is false. (I do better with DoA anyways which is why i am magnetizing my backpacks)

[Till]

Save your hate for lists that are bs (heres to you leaf blower/thunderspam).

 

And therein lies the essence of the problem: prejudice. Till here doesn't like Leaf Blower and Thunderspam. Others don't like Razorspam or DoA. Yet others dislike Loganwing, or Vulkan melta-doom, or anything with a Mystic. You get my point. Furthermore, over yesterday and today, a poor guy named Kay looking for advice on using fluffy 1st company armies was brutally massacred and derided by Dark Angel players. I'm not saying we should all hold hands around the campfire and sing 'Kumbaya', but at least be civil and respectful of others' armies and opinions. Sure, you may not like them, but how much does effort does common courtesy really take?

 

Prejudice? This isnt the NAACP. I formed my opinions of the two armies listed based on my past experiences with them and the owners, not ignorance. All I have ever said in this thread has been themed to "to each their own". My beliefs on mech guard and the spaces wolves codex in general should have been kept out of this post as its off topic, regardless of what those beliefs may be.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

My apologies. I did not mean to insult you, and should any insult have been taken, I take it back now. I saw your post and thought "Aha! An example." and used it in my post. I do not mean that you are an evil person because you have a certain dislike towards an army build. I, like probably everyone else, don't like a type of army build. Nevertheless, I don't see the need to express it in a rude manner, which is not to say you are, for you aren't. Again, my apologies if you feel insulted.

[Brother Weasel]

I formed my opinions of the two armies listed based on my past experiences with them and the owners, not ignorance.

 

first, prejudice isn't a bad word, and not based on ignorance, only certain ones are bad.

 

a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion

 

 

forming an opinion about something based on exp of the list and the owners of said list is indeed a prejudice... that assumes that anyone dropping a certain army type is a certain player type. but because you face certain ones, then your exp is that they will be a certain way, but it may but always be true:)

 

ok, so, what do we know... neither build is better then the other, it all comes down to play stile, and generalship... and of course, the rolls of the dice.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I don't know if you can really call someone else's list "boring." SNIPPED

 

If you think the list is boring and obnoxious, that's your projection. snipped

Which, I thought, is what I said. :) I (first person, singular.. unless Me and Myself butt in.) find lists like that boring to play against and obnoxious because they seem designed to beat the hell out of someone who hasn't run into it before. But that's because I believe that if you wouldn't bring a list every single week, it's not worth bringing.

 

If I were to face the same list again in the same scenario I doubt I'd actually have too much trouble at least fighting it to a draw. And I certainly blame GW more than I blame players who field such lists. But that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to know if the other Blood Angels players here on B&C felt the same way I do about Razorspam style lists. :o

[Till]

I formed my opinions of the two armies listed based on my past experiences with them and the owners, not ignorance.

 

first, prejudice isn't a bad word, and not based on ignorance, only certain ones are bad.

 

a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion

 

 

forming an opinion about something based on exp of the list and the owners of said list is indeed a prejudice... that assumes that anyone dropping a certain army type is a certain player type. but because you face certain ones, then your exp is that they will be a certain way, but it may but always be true:)

 

ok, so, what do we know... neither build is better then the other, it all comes down to play stile, and generalship... and of course, the rolls of the dice.

 

I'm not going to lower myself to have an English argument in a thread that is already precariously close to be locked, but it wont keep me from saying I don't agree with you.

 

Now, for the sake of conversation I agree with about everything else you said. Aside from die rolls. For me there is maybe one occurrence in a three game series where a roll is very far outside the norms of statistics. In Warmachine or something with much less die being tossed, I would agree again with you. However, in 40k generally there are enough die the probability norms are made. Again, this is just me.

[Vaesal]

This might be a stupid question but what constitutes razorback spamming???