Feasible Tactical Squads?

[DIKU]

Hello all,

 

When using a JP CC heavy hitter squad (VV, SG, DC, HG), i tend to use rhinos as rolling cover while it advances. Assuming the rhinos are actually manned, what would be the best SUPPORT squad to be in those rhinos?

 

instead of using another CC unit (i sometimes find them getting in the way of the heavy hitter squad), i've been considering using a mid-range type of threat. This has opened up in my mind a couple of other options, including the humble Tactical squad. I know its hard to compete with the cost of the RAS, so i would like to here what the kind fellows of the B&C think. My friends and i always like to pretend we are prepping for some tourney that will probably never take place in our area, so it would be nice to get some C&C in relation to a tournament setting.

 

 

Some comparisons:

 

Tactical Squad (10): 235

PG, PC, rhino

 

RAS (10): 235

PG(x2), rhino

 

The unit will usually end up somewhere midfield and would be used to soften targets that are about to be charged by the heavy CC unit. The Plasma Cannon would be handy in later turns, and the Tactical squad can be combat squaded to optimize KP vs Objective missions. Since the initial idea would be to shoot rather than charge, i feel the bolters are a plus too. You could also swap out the plasma for melta/multi-melta if youre more worried about tanks, but i tend to leave the tank hunting to other parts of my army.

 

I threw in the 10 man assault squad to offer a comparable RAS version, however i know the real argument for the assault squad is this loadout:

 

RAS (5): 130

PG, rhino

 

I like the versatility the Tactical squad option offers, but im not sure if it compares to the cost effectiveness of the cheaper RAS version. So my question to the forum is this: Do you think the Tactical squad is worth it in this role over the Assault squad? Other unit loadouts are welcome, this is just a combo i havent seen on this board for a while.

 

PS: i apologize if my math is off, i dont have my codex handy

[The ironfoot]

Not exactly an answer to your question, but i would go for a 4 PG/MG honour guard in a rhino or rback. This offers THE added benefits of a priest bubble for you evil cc squad. Seems like THE ultimate support unit to me, more plasma/melta shots and directly supporting your cc unit with FNP/FC. You do mis out on bolters though...

 

Interesting discussion! :)

[ancient god]

I think it would be a fine use for 10 TACs.

 

The Honour Guard unit has merit too, though. I'd prefer the tactical squad if you're low on bodies already but if you aren't, the HG are a nice tool box. They come with the Aspirant, 4x special weapons and 2 attacks each, so you can use them to bolster your attack with the Priest aura, shoot and even support in CC, as they hit as hard as an assault squad of the same size.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Consider Sternguard. They are expensive but offer flexible Squad Sizes Vs. Weapons and every bolter armed model has a plethora of support options.

 

7 Sternguard + Rhino 225pts Leaving you a few points to grab a special weapon if you really want it. (Though youdont really need them)

[Vikidus]

Imho I would run the RAS with Melta Guns over plasma, rapid fire weapons stopping you from assualting with a CC squad isn't the best idea.

[BAJake]

Imho I would run the RAS with Melta Guns over plasma, rapid fire weapons stopping you from assualting with a CC squad isn't the best idea.

Agreed.

A Tactical squad in a drop pod is always a nice option. People tend to abandon the thought of drop podding a tactical squad but if your running a 10 man tac in a rhino its not too much different than getting the reserve roll on turn 2-3 for a drop pod (4-5 if you roll terribly) and getting rapid fire at close up and be able to contest objectives in support of your RAS

[Blindhamster]

I'm something of a fluff nazi... I always have been.

 

Because of this, for my marines (in every incarnation of blood angels) I've always ran at least one tactical squad at full strength. And it's got to be said, they've rarely let me down.

 

Infact in my most recent game (against Tau) both tactical squad survived at full strength through the game due to Corbs being near one group and luck with the other.

 

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better objective holder, RAS lack the range to shoot things before they can contest an objective. SG have the same issue coupled with low model count and needed a HQ to allow them to take objectives. Scouts are too Squishy.

 

Take the tacticals, use their rhino to get them close to objectives and to provide cover, have them dash out to take the objective while the jumpers follow the moving cover ;)

[Ebsolom]

I'm in total agreement with Blindhamster on this. People will argue about them not being the most "points efficient" choice or whatever but my Tacs have proven themselves worthy in most games.

 

Long live the Tactical Squad!!! :yuck: ;)

[DIKU]

Wow, thanks for the responses guys!

 

@ironfoot- that is an awesome idea. I always thought about using a plasma/JP honor guard, but they always get cut when i have trim down the list to get to the agreed point limit. Putting them in a rhino allows them to fill a different roll and provide protection rather than require it.

 

@BAJake- The DP tactical is an old favorite from previous editions for me (back when red rhinos were painfully discriminated against). But that was in context of a list that was self sufficient on its own, then used the tactical squad to bolster wherever i needed help late game. Now with the Drop Pod Assault rule, id be hesitant to commit that squad on turn one in some situations (Nidzilla for example). maybe im wrong??

 

@Vikidus- If the intention of the RAS is to assault, then absolutely PGs would be a bad idea. However, i this squad would probably only get committed to assault as a plan B. I just put the RAS up there to illustrate that because of their cost effectiveness, even in a shooting role they compete with the tacticals

 

@Blindhamster & Ebsolom- This is really what i want to get into. Im sure any ten man space marine squad can survive a battle, but how do they contribute and in what context? For example, i wouldnt want to invest 235 pts in a squad that survives only because it is ignored while the rest of my army gets destroyed. Is it better to sink points into your tacticals so that they perform better? maybe even adding combiweapons to the vet sgt for some extra weight?? or is it better to minimize the point investment so that other, more specialized choices can be bought?

 

another loadout option could be:

 

Tactical Squad (5) - 150 (it might be 155 but i dont have internet at home, so usually no codex and internet at the same time =/ )

Vet with Combiweapon, rhino

 

but to be honest i dont know if the bolters compare to the 5 man RAS with plasmagun for 130 ...

[TheMouth]

I lik eto run my tac squads fully anti-infantry...get those bolters used! 10 man squad with a flamer and a heavy bolter in cover can be an awesome thing.

[Blindhamster]

I use my Tactical Squads as full 10 man squads, in objective based games they get combat squaded (usually) half will jump in a rhino, with a priest if i can afford it, half remain at the back making liberal use of their heavy weapon.

 

To me thats where the main difference comes in, the assault squad cannot take the heavy weapon, the arguement that the assault squad can take a razorback doesn't stand, as the tacticals can also.

 

as to how I use my squads....

 

currently I have 3 full 10 man squads built as follows:(I'll get round to showing them on here eventually, they're heavily reposed and green stuffed)

 

Power Sword, Melta Gun and Rocket Launcher. This one ALWAYS gets combat squaded if it's objective based. It's also the one that usually benefits from the company of a priest (in my last game the priest was corbulo)

 

Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon. I rarely split this squad up, it's designed to hang back and shoot, sergeant does have a bolt pistol and chainsword (used to have a power fist)

 

Heavy Bolter, Flamer. This squad usually gets split in objective games, but only really gets used if I'm playing a horde type army.

 

 

An assault squad is more of a hammer, but it's more likely to take casualties, close combat in this edition is a very unsafe place to be (they lack invulnerables, and can't claim cover saves) The Tacticals are just what it says, tactical, make use of cover, keep out of reach of enemy units etc. Combat squad when it's sensible etc.

 

I'm also a big fan of synergy. Lots of Assault Squads is somewhat one trick, however a mix of assault squads and tacticals (hell, even devestators) is good, if used right they are hard to deal with. there is afterall a reason that a company is made up of a combination of those three kinds of squads.

 

I love Sternguard and usually use them. But outside of a Vanilla list where they can be made troops by Kantor, they aren't a replacement for tacticals.

[Wysten]

If your going to run a squad at 5 man, you may as well run Assualt Marines, as they will offer more melee attacks and provide a special weapon.

 

 

Personally, I think tactical squads are good in Codex Marines because they can break out of combat to use their guns, but I think their counter productive in BA. They trade combat tactics for an ability which is done better by the other assualt troop choice. Effective bolter/melta range of 24 with packs, more attacks in melee, from a gameplay point of view they are very simliar in range. A bolter exchange for pistols and more, 1 heavy for 2 special weapons. Jetpacks... If they were in codex marines, it would be a fair game, but in blood angels, I say assualt marines win all out all the time. Though I could see them in pure mech.

[TheMouth]

the thing about the bolters is the ability to sit back and assist the assault squads...say you want to charge a mob of boys with your 5 man assault squad...but you dont think you can handle it too well in hth do to they out number you 5-1 (hypothetical)...so tac squad lends some long range bolter shots and heavy bolter rounds, along with your 5 pistol shots...lo - and behold its not a more manageable squad to assault.

 

That right there happens every game I play ( not necessarily orks but you get the idea ).

[The Yncarne]

I like tac squads that have been combat squadded. Put the heavy weapon on an objective and the other one either 12" away to support the first element and give mid-range fire support, or have them advance in the rhino to support the assault squad. Leaving the full ten man squad on an objective just seems to draw long range fire with inadequate firepower response in my experience.

[Till]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now :) .

[Blindhamster]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

in fairness, without us having a priest nearby (wont always happen, much as we might wish it, a Grey Hunter Pack can beat down a RAS too... they have comparable attacks, especially with counter attack, and have various other options to become more evil in CC. and a Grey Hunter Pack will also out shoot an Assault squad, whereas a tac Squad likely gets a couple of turns of Heavy Weapon fire on the Grey Hunters.

 

Ultimately it's all swings and roundabouts. Squad loadouts and army composition have a huge effect on what works and what doesn't.

[TheMouth]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now :tu: .

 

 

see my post about tac squad helping in taking down units to a more manageable size...you apply the assault squads shots with shots from a tac squad supporting ....not as big a threat when you charge in.

 

My fav tactic is combat squad the tacs, 5 in rhino with flamer and sgt with power weapon...assault squad jumping along rhino, tac squad jumps out double taps and flames potential new unit, assault squad flames and bolt pistols units, then charges the remaining models and bam...you win.

[SamaNagol]

If you are going to put them in rhinos or razorbacks and with minimal upgrades, then you are paying more points than you really need to by not just taking a squad of Assault Marines with a special weapon and the discount.

 

If you want some mid ranged support, I would definitely go for Stern Guard.

[TheMouth]

If you are going to put them in rhinos or razorbacks and with minimal upgrades, then you are paying more points than you really need to by not just taking a squad of Assault Marines with a special weapon and the discount.

 

If you want some mid ranged support, I would definitely go for Stern Guard.

 

 

I forgot to include the combat squadding aspect, there really is no reason to take a 5 man tac squad at all.

[Till]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

in fairness, without us having a priest nearby (wont always happen, much as we might wish it, a Grey Hunter Pack can beat down a RAS too... they have comparable attacks, especially with counter attack, and have various other options to become more evil in CC. and a Grey Hunter Pack will also out shoot an Assault squad, whereas a tac Squad likely gets a couple of turns of Heavy Weapon fire on the Grey Hunters.

 

Ultimately it's all swings and roundabouts. Squad loadouts and army composition have a huge effect on what works and what doesn't.

 

I have 3 full as with a priest in each. I wont assault gray hunters unless I know Im going first.

[DIKU]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

Well heck, if we're comparing troops from other codexes(sp?) I'll take grey knights and plague marines any day.

 

Sternguard and honor guards are definitely better mid-range support units, ill agree. but unfortunately they dont take up a troop slot.

 

An RAS squad with a flamer and PW (your preference on size of unit) i have found to be perfect for cleaning light troops out of cover on objectives. I would never commit my Sang Guard or Van Vets to kill a 10 man squad of gaunts or guard when there are bigger things for them to kill. And most opponents have a weak unit to camp on objectives, so the RAS serves a role that no other unit in the BA codex is better suited to fill.

 

Rolling cover is another dirty job i have to assign someone to. Our dedicated CC units can really handle anything in the game right now. but sometimes they need some extra help so they dont get bogged down or take heavy casualties. Why not dedicate a troop choice to this role? And given the position of the field the unit will likely end up, I feel tacticals would be more useful than the RAS.

[Till]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

Well heck, if we're comparing troops from other codexes(sp?) I'll take grey knights and plague marines any day.

 

 

Neither of those are tac squads... but for what its worth, gray hunters would butcher them both point to point.

[TheMouth]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

Well heck, if we're comparing troops from other codexes(sp?) I'll take grey knights and plague marines any day.

 

 

Neither of those are tac squads... but for what its worth, gray hunters would butcher them both point to point.

 

 

I dunno...I think that the plague marines might stay around a bit longer then the wolves...that entire t5 and all.

[Candleshoes]

Squad loadouts and army composition have a huge effect on what works and what doesn't.

 

This really answers the thread.

 

This isn't debating on what unit is better for a primary troop slot, or how a BA tactical squad compares to its superiors in other armies.

 

Taking tacticals is a choice that must be made with one simple question in mind, will it support the rest of my army and provide the function that I am paying the points for. In some armies, for how they play and how their player plays, this will be a feasible choice, for others and how they play, tacticals are not. They have to have a place in your army suited to your playstyle, much like the debates on including a Land Raider, or Storm Raven/Death Company/Mephiston/etc. All are a pricey points sink, and all have to have their place in certain types of armies.

[Br0ther Rafen]

i don't really play BA to much any more, since my original army got totally nerfed by the new dex, but I'll tell you one thing: Tacticals are FTW

they are versatile, they can hold objectives, they can be sacraficial meat shields, they can do a plethora of things that other squads simply fall down when it comes to "versatility".

you should most definetly run them. Take two, even.

My 2 cents