Feasible Tactical Squads?

[Sinful eyes]

Squad loadouts and army composition have a huge effect on what works and what doesn't.

 

This really answers the thread.

 

This isn't debating on what unit is better for a primary troop slot, or how a BA tactical squad compares to its superiors in other armies.

 

Taking tacticals is a choice that must be made with one simple question in mind, will it support the rest of my army and provide the function that I am paying the points for. In some armies, for how they play and how their player plays, this will be a feasible choice, for others and how they play, tacticals are not. They have to have a place in your army suited to your playstyle, much like the debates on including a Land Raider, or Storm Raven/Death Company/Mephiston/etc. All are a pricey points sink, and all have to have their place in certain types of armies.

 

I agree with this 100%. Tactical squads have no place in my BA lists simply because they dont fit in with the rest of my army. People could argue back and forth all day long about assault squads VS tactical squads, but what it all boils down to is who prefers to play with what units.

 

The reason I prefer assault squads however is because, like others have pointed out, the BA codex offers so much more to melee units then it does to shooty ones. Take the space wolfes for example. They are shooty, and with counter charge they get just as many attacks as most other squads that assault them. In the case of most MEQ armies they also hit at the same time. However, if you take a BA assault squad and man it with a priest and you get the assault off you gain furious charge. This means that YOU now strike first at I 5, and also wound on a 3+ with a str of 5. Along with that you now have FNP. This should let you kill enough of them before they get to strike back, and save enough of your guys once they do to make a difference.

 

Just my opinion however. I know I dident add in that the space puppies would be able to shoot at me before i assault and what not, but in a real game both players would have an entire army to back these units up, so i just used this basic example. In the end though, its still up to the individual players wether they wish to include a tactical squad or not.

[Wysten]

To be entirely honest. I don't see what makes tacticals versatile at all and as one of many closely linked codexes, it's only fair that we compare tacticals between codexes.

 

Grey Hunters are not tactical marines, they are assualt marines with bolters, defined by the duel specials and able to fight close combat. They are an example of versatile ability within 12 inches. They can hunt tanks, damage infantry short from the hard stuff. They are tutored to deal with a general range of threats in exchange for lower mobility on foot and lower Leadership without taking an elite slot. They pay for this by being able to take some fanciful equipment which raises the price to more familar levels. Often around the same price as your average tactical squad. They cannot combat squad which is a tactical weakness and though they can't break away that easily, Space Wolves like to melee anyway.

 

BA Assualt Marines are closely related to the Grey Hunter, but exchange their bolter and counter attack for access to jetpacks and the BA perks. This allows them to be more mobile and tougher when supported by San Priest then the Grey Hunters. They lose the bolter but have lost no efficency. As described, they have the ability to attack on their own terms better via jetpacks and have an effective melta range of 0 to 18, then decent 18-24 inches (where you get it's full power, including movement range) and have the same bolt pistol range as a tactical squad. These units are really flexable on who they deal with aside from rock hard units, which is the role of other units. They can also combat squad to cover more ground and benfit from BA's tactics.

 

Tactical Marines in Codex Marines are inflexable units, they are only good at shooting and will lose melees to even passable melee units. However, due to chapter tactics they can escape to shoot again, which ensures greater shooting firepower can be used to it's full advantage. Tacticals by nature give up the opptunity to fight on their own terms due to relience on transport. They can also spilt up and gain two neat objective sitters, meaning 4 object sitters for minimun price that can shoot and get out of unfavourable combat. This allows the two specials to work together and the two heavys to claim objectives, while combat tactics makes sure that they can break away from unfavourable melee, this is very importent for codex marines don't do melee that well aside from Assualt Terminators and have a lot of shooting support.

 

BA Tacticals have all of the above, but instead lose their tactics to gain abilitys that are counter productive to what they want to do (they can tarpit via fearless, but surely Assualt Marines would be better at that anyway since they want to be in CC). They can combat squad, but they also compete directly with the role of the assualt trooper for objective holders. Is it better to have a passive unit all the time or an offensive unit that can sit on objective?

 

Plague Marines are tough, but hopeless in combat and can't hope to break away from it. Good objective sitters and some shooting, but fill a very narrow role. This is what I compare BA tactical marines to. Capable of eating rounds of fire, but if they get anywhere near a fight, they may force you to divert resources to get them out of their rut or lose them.

 

 

As for Grey Knights, everyone wants to be one deep inside, nuff said. :lol: Though, lack of melta is worrying...

[Till]

I don't think Tac squads are the way to go for a BA codex. Pound for pound BA tac's will go down to grey hunters. Grey hunters are vastly superior to any other tac squad atm, and they're everywhere in the tourny scene. Tac squads where the sex in 3rd with min maxing... Im just not that big a fan of them now .

 

Well heck, if we're comparing troops from other codexes(sp?) I'll take grey knights and plague marines any day.

 

 

Neither of those are tac squads... but for what its worth, gray hunters would butcher them both point to point.

 

 

I dunno...I think that the plague marines might stay around a bit longer then the wolves...that entire t5 and all.

 

at first glance, I may have agreed with you, after pointing up some vacuum lists...

 

10 plague marines

2 plasma, plague champ, power weapon. -> 290 points (!)

 

15 wolf guard, 3/4 plasma, 2 fists -> 295

 

So, in the shooting phase you're getting 6/8 plasma and in the assault phase you're getting 6 fist attacks, all this ignores t5 and FNP.Point to point the wolf guard would shatter the plague marines in cc or in shooting. In addition the wolf guard could take advantage of drop pods, the plague marines cannot.

 

Squad loadouts and army composition have a huge effect on what works and what doesn't.

 

This really answers the thread.

 

This isn't debating on what unit is better for a primary troop slot, or how a BA tactical squad compares to its superiors in other armies.

 

Taking tacticals is a choice that must be made with one simple question in mind, will it support the rest of my army and provide the function that I am paying the points for. In some armies, for how they play and how their player plays, this will be a feasible choice, for others and how they play, tacticals are not. They have to have a place in your army suited to your playstyle, much like the debates on including a Land Raider, or Storm Raven/Death Company/Mephiston/etc. All are a pricey points sink, and all have to have their place in certain types of armies.

 

I also agree with all this. From a strictly competitive aspect, I don't think tac squads are as good as AS. Im sure success can be made with tac squads; this isn't me saying they're stupid, they suck, or anything else. I just think better optimized lists can be made without them.

[TheMouth]

WY...I dont see how you really made any point in that post. You tried to nullify the examples of grey hunters vs tacs, then put tacs on par with nurgle marines?

 

Tactical squads can be usefull depending on how you use them in your army, and your own personal playing style.

 

This entire thread of " assault is better" , " no , grey hunters are better" ,"no nurgle is bestestssss" ," NO IG!!" ( lolol on the last one )

 

But seriously, it doesnt matter who thinks what unit is the best for the points or for abilities it comes down to personal play style, and what you need to do for the particular mission. Simple as that. If you want to run a tac squad, run a tac squad. Leave it at that.

 

I love running duel tac squads and assault squads, to me its more the fluff aspect then anything else.

[Till]

WY...I dont see how you really made any point in that post. You tried to nullify the examples of grey hunters vs tacs, then put tacs on par with nurgle marines?

 

Tactical squads can be usefull depending on how you use them in your army, and your own personal playing style.

 

This entire thread of " assault is better" , " no , grey hunters are better" ,"no nurgle is bestestssss" ," NO IG!!" ( lolol on the last one )

 

 

My point was gray hunters are way better than most troop options. I was trying to show it rather than say it. Playing Tac squads over AS (the only other real troop choice), is making your troops fight gray hunters at their own game. If the thread creator is looking to get into tournaments, he needs to plan on seeing gray hunters, a lot of them I would guess. As far as if its relevant or not, you can take out of the post what you want, that's the joy of a forum.

 

But seriously, it doesnt matter who thinks what unit is the best for the points or for abilities it comes down to personal play style, and what you need to do for the particular mission. Simple as that. If you want to run a tac squad, run a tac squad. Leave it at that.

 

I love running duel tac squads and assault squads, to me its more the fluff aspect then anything else.

 

The thread title is "Feasible Tactical Squads?, In competitive settings" my conversation isn't about keeping people from what they want to play. I'm trying to communicate why I think Tac squads are not the best choice for formal competitive settings. You joke around a lot in your posts so its hard to distinguish between your sarcasm and your real opinions.

[Wysten]

WY...I dont see how you really made any point in that post. You tried to nullify the examples of grey hunters vs tacs, then put tacs on par with nurgle marines?

 

Tactical squads can be usefull depending on how you use them in your army, and your own personal playing style.

 

This entire thread of " assault is better" , " no , grey hunters are better" ,"no nurgle is bestestssss" ," NO IG!!" ( lolol on the last one )

 

But seriously, it doesnt matter who thinks what unit is the best for the points or for abilities it comes down to personal play style, and what you need to do for the particular mission. Simple as that. If you want to run a tac squad, run a tac squad. Leave it at that.

 

I love running duel tac squads and assault squads, to me its more the fluff aspect then anything else.

 

Yes. Because they forfill a very simliar role.

 

Blood Angels tacticals are generally larger so they can take their special, often end up as objective sitters and have to have transports to keep up.

 

Plague Marines typically are an objective sitting only force. Often serving as combat squads (5 Man units) with a single special and sit on an objective. They need transports to get there quickly though.

 

 

Just because a infantry style is prefered, does not make it a better option. Any unit in this game has strengths and weakness's and not all are created equal. This guy is asking for advice for competative play on what troops choice is better, this means compersion against verious sources. Grey hunters can counter attack, sure, but BA have furious charge, the advantage of mobility and feel no pain, so that simply because Grey Hunters exist does not mean you should not use assualt Marines.

 

When comparing Assualt Marines against Tacticals, Assualt win every single time. The only thing they don't win out on is boltguns, but being able to use Jetpacks, not being slowed down by a heavy weapon and more melee attacks baliences that downside and when it comes down to it they can hold an objective. Tactical squads have a couple of perks, but are those perks better then what Assualt Marines can offer in an enviroment where you must play a series of matches using one list? Considering the codex of the codex, I don't believe tacticals are the answer.

[Till]

I disagree with your assessment of BA tac squads having FNP and furious charge, they do not. Nor do AS for that matter. Priests give that to them, a separate model, kill point, an easy to kill IC in CC, and an additional 50 points (75 in DoA). For me I cant get past the point to point efficiency Gray Hunters have. The two regions I play in have several space wolf armies. If one wanted to be a contender for tournies in these areas you need to deal with gray hunters. Thats the only reason I put so much emphasis on planning their counter.

 

More back on top and less about wolves, I think AS are vastly superior to tac squad based on synergy with the rest of our available units.

[DIKU]

I didnt mean for this topic to turn into "RAS vs Tacticals, which one is better?" We've all heard the arguments before and by looking at army lists RAS clearly seem to win out.

 

I was trying to offer a situation that occurred to me where i thought the tacticals had the opportunity to excel over the RAS even in a competitive setting. However after taking into account some of the suggestions early on, i think ive found my favorite build for the role i was describing:

 

RAS (5) - 200

PF, Combi-melta, meltagun

Razorback w LasPlas

 

Priest - 60

Combi-melta

 

It occurred to me that because the BA have fast vehicles, there is no reason the rolling cover tank can't be apart of the support fire. It is a scoring unit that has potential to deal out some heavy damage before the Heavy CC unit goes in, protects the priest while still providing benefits to the assault, and the unit can still handle minor roles later.

 

you can downgrade to a rhino to save on points, or customize the Razor weapon to your liking, or even switch to all plasma to maximise that shooting part if you like

[Wysten]

I disagree with your assessment of BA tac squads having FNP and furious charge, they do not. Nor do AS for that matter. Priests give that to them, a separate model, kill point, an easy to kill IC in CC, and an additional 50 points (75 in DoA). For me I cant get past the point to point efficiency Gray Hunters have. The two regions I play in have several space wolf armies. If one wanted to be a contender for tournies in these areas you need to deal with gray hunters. Thats the only reason I put so much emphasis on planning their counter.

 

More back on top and less about wolves, I think AS are vastly superior to tac squad based on synergy with the rest of our available units.

 

Ahhh, sorry about that. I meant to say BA has access to feel no pain through Sang Priest, and can get it through Red Thirst, and gain Jetpacks and better leadership over Grey Hunters. But yeah, fair point, I agree with your general thoughts.

 

 

And as said, the tactical vs assualt marine thing was partly my fault. Sorry about that. ^^;

[SamaNagol]

Assault Marine Sergeants cannot get combi-weapons