Khorne Herald on Juggernaught, any good

[waaanial00]

Hi all,

 

I am currently building Daemons as part of a new army challenge for 2011. I havent really played much with them (3 games of 500 points with 1 list, it was garbage!) however I have been reading about.

 

One thing I would like to gage is peoples opinion on the lowly Herald options. Now I am planning for a Keeper of Secrets when I get to big league points but the conversion idea I stole off the interwebz is going to be quite expensive so until then I am planning on using some Heralds.

 

One in particular struck my brain yesterday. Herald of Khorne, Juggernaught with unholy might. Plop that in a unit of 3 blood crushers and it should form quite a decent assault unit in my next 750 point game.

 

However am I giving it too much credit? Have people run this option before and discounted it as too expensive or just gone for the better greater daemons?

 

Planning on building 2 Chariots of Slaaanesh eventually but thats more because I like rending with lots of attacks.

 

Anyway I hope there are Daemon players out there on this forum, they do seem to be one of the least played forces to be released in recent times.

[greatcrusade08]

the chariots are where the actions at IMO, but a herald on jugger is well worth his weight, with 3 crushers it should be a solid unit..

[Vassakov]

Kheralds on Juggers are definately worth it, as a S6 (7 on the Charge) Character in the unit, with more attacks etc can really augment a unit of Crushers. You can drop Rending on him too, giving you twice as much chance of nobbling that Dreadnought or whatever has tied you up.

 

IMHO, Tzeentch Chariots are the best, as they gain additional movement and are hard as nails. A Khorne Chariot, whilst being a light Prince, is probably just asking for "Insert Medium/Heavy Firepower here." In a Unit though, they are horrific.

[Godhead]

A 3 man crusher squad with all unique upgrades makes that unit a bear to deal with. You can even get as crazy as running 4 crushers all different and the herald for wound allocation shenanigans. IMO that herald and unit becomes one of the most survivable squads (if not the most survivable squad in the codex) and is AMAZING when it hits CC.

[FishSpit]

I must say, a khorne herald NOT on a juggernaught is a herald wasted. the juggernaught is 35 more points, but when you also consider that it confers the iron hide gift (15 points there) and an awesome stat boost, it's well worth the cost. I run a juggernaught mounted herald to beef up a bloodletter squad, and with bloodcrushers it would be just as deadly.

[Vassakov]

A Kherald on a Jugger is definately better in a Crusher unit, for the aforementioned wound allocation malarky.

 

Of course, to do that you're going to have a 300+ point unit with a footprint the size of a medium building... icons are advisable.

[Monkeychunks]

I'm trying to be as polite as possible here, but I cannot agree with the above comments, at all. The Herald on Juggernaut is a prime, shining example of a bad unit due to bad internal balance, because he does almost nothing that a unit of Bloodcrushers would not do, far more efficiently.

 

Compared to a Bloodcrusher, the Jugg-Herald has +1WS, W, I and A, plus S in your case. He also costs *3 times more*.

For the same cost, you could have 2x the wounds, and more than 2x the attacks. In terms of a 'cost-vs-killiness', he simply cannot compete.

 

There are only 2 things he can really do:

- If you have used up all your Elite slots. At 750pts?

- If you play crazy amounts of terrain, and cannot deep-strike a unit of 3 models safely.

 

In both situations, there are better options available. There is simply no need for him in a list.

[Godhead]

I disagree.. He protects your bloodcrushers in CC as attacks have to be allocated against him specifically. He is also str 6 rending or str 7 rending with furious charge and int 5 or int 6. Regular crushers are only int 4, int 5 only if they get the charge. I think you trivialize the value of int 5 and str 6 base in your cost vs killiness equation. Plus a 3 man crusher squad AND the herald is 265 points.. OMG I pay 25 more points for my single solitary Wolf Lord than this whole kit and kaboodle combined. IMO this unit is a real VALUE. The same price for the IC and squad is the same as you'd pay for a 4 wound DP of nurgle with all the toys. This unit gets 5 more wounds with the same armor and invuln saves with more survivability.

 

As far as the footprint goes, It's 4 models total. You absolutely will need to drop them a bit more conservatively, However with wound shenanigans and a decent target saturation, they are nigh impossible to remove from the table before they start earning points back. The positive thing is, you only take mishaps when you land on IMPASSIBLE terrain (not difficult or dangerous). Even if you fail a difficult terrain roll, you still only lose 1 wound and may still attempt your invuln save. The only other way to take a mishap is to land on another unit (or within 1") or off the table. Icons can also alleviate this problem. This unit can also claim cover saves from intervening models.

 

Honestly what unit in a daemon codex doesn't have a large footprint? Troops need to be taken in masses to survive small arms fires since they only have their invul save. The only squads with an appreciable significance in footprint size would be flamer squads and 5 man horror squads. Greater daemons and daemon princes suffer as they are MC's and have to sell their already sold souls for a cover save of any sorts. Since that rarely happens, they eat every piece of anti AT in game. (It's funny since mech is king in 5th that it nerfs MC's since everybody and their brother brings tons of Anti AT weaponry).

 

This unit (including the herald) brings quit a bit for its cost with the only draw backs being a moderately larger footprint and slower speed. The larger footprint also has a boon in the fact that it allows for easier multi charge assaults which can help prevent return fire during your opponents turn as you will most likely wipe out units on his/her turn instead of yours. The IC also allows you to split off during the movement phase, possible engaging up to 3 units at one time (and having a realistic chance of winning all 3 combats depending on the units charged).

 

As for the value of just the herald, as someone else stated a herald not on a juggy is a wasted herald. Since the juggernaught mount herald can run with squads of bloodletters, there isn't any reason for him to not be on one no matter what you put him with.

 

The only herald that I feel has more value than a khorn herald on a juggernaught is a tzeentch herald on a chariot. (but this is absolutely pure opinion on my part).

[Vassakov]

I disagree.. He protects your bloodcrushers in CC as attacks have to be allocated against him specifically. He is also str 6 rending or str 7 rending with furious charge and int 5 or int 6. Regular crushers are only int 4, int 5 only if they get the charge. I think you trivialize the int 5 and str 6 base in your cost vs killiness equation.

 

This. I think you underestimate the advantage that a Herald adds to a unit of Crushers.

 

As an aside, I frequently run 2 units of 3/4 Crushers and a unit of Flamers. The addition of a Khorne Herald to one has only done me good.

[Monkeychunks]

I appreciate it adds to the squad, but does it really add more than simply putting another 3 'Crushers into the unit? Ultimately that is what it boils down to in my eyes: 3 'Crushers provide more damage and more resilience, for the same cost. Although even then its a fairly irrelevant argument, because you never really need more than 4 in the squad at all. They are plenty capable of overkill even without him, so why not put the points into other areas?

 

And its all well and good claiming he provides S7 Rending, but why is that a factor in the first place? Why is your Herald (and potentially his Bloodcrusher retinue) chasing tanks? Why not use Fiends, Daemon Princes or TzHeralds to do that, again at a much cheaper price. Daemons work on specialisation, and the points spent on making units multi-capable will nearly always be better spent on specialists.

 

I like to think of Bloodcrushers as a hammer, and the Herald as a pure gold, ruby-encrusted hammer with a screwdriver on the end. It can still bash things, and in a pinch it can unscrew something. But it won't do both at the same time, and will cost twice as much as a cheap hammer and screwdriver separately.

 

He can do 3 things in my eyes:

Run with Bloodcrushers and help kill stuff- Outshone by more Crushers

Mini Daemon Prince running solo- Get an actual Daemon Prince ;)

Melee anti-tank- Fiends or a Prince

[Godhead]

Why is my herald and bloodcrushers chasing tanks? Because MECH IS KING!! Everyone is in a damn tank. I mean it is only daemons. Maybe those fiends (who actually compete for the same elite slots as crushers), Tzheralds, or DP's didn't make it on the board yet or could be dead. It is also possible to roll poorly not only on your reserve rolls, but also on to hits or vehicle damage rolls. God forbid those crushers get tarpitted with a dread. The str 6(str 7) could absolutely mean the difference. You can never have too many ways to pop a tank. I can't assault the nice soft gooey insides until the tank is ripped open. I don't know about your daemon army, but mine struggles if I can't get people on the ground.

[Vassakov]

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree - for a start, there is the potential for wound allocation already mentioned - something that an extra couple of Crushers will actually cause detriment to the unit, rather than enhance it. Second, as you mention, more than 5 is just silly, so we'll leave that aside.

 

The big area a Kherald comes into his own isn't necessarily offensive, but defensive - what's the best unit to stop Bloodcrushers with? Dreadnoughts and Walkers of their ilk (Wraithlords etc - hell, I've even seen Armoured Sentinals tarpit them!) Now, on their own you are likely to either lose the unit, or at least have it removed from the remainder of the game.

 

Throw a Kherald into the mix, and suddenly the nature of the conflict changes. Not only does it augment the Crushers ability to take on such units and win, it also ramps up the priority of dealing them for the enemy* - and as Bloodcrushers and by extension the Herald do not die at all easily, they are going to have to expend serious effort dealing with them.

 

* This is as much psychological as anything else. A unit of Crushers, led by an IC - most opponents will be aware of just what a threat this is, and give it an unhealthy focus. Whilst on paper, 3 more Crushers might be more threatening, it's amazing what Herohammer does to people. ;)

 

He can do 3 things in my eyes:

Run with Bloodcrushers and help kill stuff- Outshone by more Crushers

Mini Daemon Prince running solo- Get an actual Daemon Prince ;)

Melee anti-tank- Fiends or a Prince

 

1. See above.

2. In a Chariot, aye. In which case I fully agree with you, and have 4 to do the job :D

3. Not in a primary role, but as stated it augments the killing potential of the unit significantly.

 

But this is all personal opinion and experience. To put this into context, my Daemons are a Khorne/Tzeentch list and I can field a Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Fateweaver, Khorne and Tzeentch Heralds (including his Skulltakeriness and the Bluescribes) as well as a fair few Crushers, 4 Princes and around 50 infantry mostly of the Bloodletting variety.

 

For a relatively cheap HQ, the Kherald has never let me down.

[Monkeychunks]

Fair enough, if you've found success with him then I'm sure he can be worked into a good place, just not the sort of thing I'd use myself. I won't press the point, apparently he can be effective after all.

[waaanial00]

Thanks for the debat people, as it happens due to a rather nasty migraine and some poor decisions I was completely annihilated by Dark Eldar. I didnt get to do anything with my crushers and herald other than take saves and die :D

 

Still the wound allocation nonesense and having 3 more wounds in a single unit did seem useful. Though I probably would have done better with 3 more crushers. However it has to be said that as points levels increase I dont see myself having the luxury of spare elite slots to take another unit, so I will probably take a Kherald at that point.

 

Cheers all

[Vassakov]

Thanks for the debat people, as it happens due to a rather nasty migraine and some poor decisions I was completely annihilated by Dark Eldar. I didnt get to do anything with my crushers and herald other than take saves and die ;)

 

Still the wound allocation nonesense and having 3 more wounds in a single unit did seem useful. Though I probably would have done better with 3 more crushers. However it has to be said that as points levels increase I dont see myself having the luxury of spare elite slots to take another unit, so I will probably take a Kherald at that point.

 

Cheers all

 

Unlucky mate, though to be fair... any half decent DE army is likely to wipe the floor with Daemons in general, Khorne and Nurgle in particular. Reserve everything, then fly around staying out of CC range and pouring Lance and Blaster fire into the Daemons. Game over.

 

Glad to know the discussion was of use though!

[Spacefrisian]

Kheralds on Juggers are definately worth it, as a S6 (7 on the Charge) Character in the unit, with more attacks etc can really augment a unit of Crushers. You can drop Rending on him too, giving you twice as much chance of nobbling that Dreadnought or whatever has tied you up.

 

IMHO, Tzeentch Chariots are the best, as they gain additional movement and are hard as nails. A Khorne Chariot, whilst being a light Prince, is probably just asking for "Insert Medium/Heavy Firepower here." In a Unit though, they are horrific.

 

 

I get a feeling youve overlooked the Slaanesh chariot rules. It becomes Cavalry meaning 6" +d6 move or pull (pavane) +12" charge. Tzeentch is actually outclassed in the movement (even with difficult terrain)

[Captain Malachi]

Tzeentch chariots count as jetbikes. 12" move + the abilty to turboboost, and not relying on charging to go at max speed means they are by far the most maneuverable of the chariots, with Slaanesh coming in second.

[Spacefrisian]

Ontopic: What do you think about SkullTaker on Juggernaut (supported by other Juggernauts to distribute wounds).

[waaanial00]

I am really unimpressed by Skulltaker in general. 3 games I played him and not once did he inflict more than 1 wound (though of course he did instant kill a Necron Lord which didnt get back up).

 

His headchop is alright but in general he suffers too much from the rubbish way that 40K manages combat. High WS is almost completely pointless when the enemy is generally still hitting you on a 4+.

 

Though the extra wound probably helps him quite a bit, if you are used to the survival prospects of a 3+ character being almost nill when the chips are down he seems too much of an expensive investment.

[Spacefrisian]

I am really unimpressed by Skulltaker in general. 3 games I played him and not once did he inflict more than 1 wound (though of course he did instant kill a Necron Lord which didnt get back up).

 

His headchop is alright but in general he suffers too much from the rubbish way that 40K manages combat. High WS is almost completely pointless when the enemy is generally still hitting you on a 4+.

 

Though the extra wound probably helps him quite a bit, if you are used to the survival prospects of a 3+ character being almost nill when the chips are down he seems too much of an expensive investment.

 

 

Try him against Mephiston 1 on 1 and tell me who is the winner afterwards.

[Vassakov]

I am really unimpressed by Skulltaker in general. 3 games I played him and not once did he inflict more than 1 wound (though of course he did instant kill a Necron Lord which didnt get back up).

 

His headchop is alright but in general he suffers too much from the rubbish way that 40K manages combat. High WS is almost completely pointless when the enemy is generally still hitting you on a 4+.

 

Though the extra wound probably helps him quite a bit, if you are used to the survival prospects of a 3+ character being almost nill when the chips are down he seems too much of an expensive investment.

 

He's a situationally useful character, unlike say Logan Grimnar or Mephiston or Lysander who can be relied on to go through almost anything.

 

Basically, he wounds anything on a (at worst) 4+ in CQC and inflicts instant death on them to boot. So, against a rank-and-file squad he's at best sub par. On the other hand, throw him at a Carnifex or a Wraithlord... and he'll kill them. With 4 or 5 attacks, hitting most things on a 3+ that's not bad odds. Especially as you can arrange combat in such a way as to throw him at an IC and watch him carve his trade.

 

An additional thought - Nobz squads (or indeed, any multi wound unit that plays the wound allocation malarky.) Each wound he inflicts must go on a seperate model. Each unsaved would inflicts ID. Watch them cry.

[waaanial00]

Oh and I finally got a large enough game in to really show how much the Blood Crushers can do, 1500 points I had 5, they really kicked ass so thanks for persuading me to stick at it.

 

Might try with a Herald tomorrow. Thanks again!

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a bit late to the party but what a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaught does when compared to the extra models you get for those point, which has been overlooked I feel:

 

He's an HQ choice. In 40K you have to have an HQ choice therefore you are going to be investing points on a model whether you like it or not. In this case, the cost-to-killyness ratio is irelevant when comparing a Herald with a unit since you can't avoid making a selection.

 

So a Khorne Herald on Juggernaught is not that bad a choice for it's investment. Especially as you do have the option to join Bloodletters also and can avoid the destruction that comes from the likes of Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons from shooting.

 

Oh, what is consensus of Skulltaker on a Juggernaught? Surely the stat boost makes him dangerous against rank and file?