MadBright Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 so i was wondering. when Horus was killed by the emperor. Did some other major event happen that made the traitors retreat or did they just fall back because Horus died? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Horus dying was probably the main thing, as hardly anyone else could have hoped to stand up to the Emperor. But the traitor forces also knew that three loyalist Legions were inbound, so if they had stayed and fought they would only have postponed the inevitable defeat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Horus death signaled the start of the rout but the Traitors had already lost. Internecine conflict with culling the loyalists in their own ranks and the grueling Siege of Terra meant they were in absolutely no position to hold off the incoming Loyalist forces. Particularly not the Ultramarines, who had already weathered a sneak attack in the Ultramar system. One can only imagine the beat down that would have been administered to the Traitors without surprise on their side and caught between the defenses of the Imperial Palace and the oncoming fresh Loyalists. Â In short, they gambled and lost. They were unable to break the deadlock at the Siege of Terra soon enough and then tried to kill the Emperor. After that, it was just a matter of getting the heck outta dodge before the revenge strike arrived. Typical siege warfare just on a grand scale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah, the story went that Horus lowered the shields on his battle barge in a gamble to try and lure the Emperor to his death, because the arrival of the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines was imminent and they were going to break the siege. It was a last roll of the dice kinda thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What gets me is that if Horus had killed the emperor on his barge, would the three inbound chapters suddenly say 'Long Live Horus!' because there would be three* legions of very angry marines coming to fight his already battered forces. Â *maybe two, because the Dark Angels were sat on the fence during the heresy. Weren't they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What gets me is that if Horus had killed the emperor on his barge, would the three inbound chapters suddenly say 'Long Live Horus!' because there would be three* legions of very angry marines coming to fight his already battered forces. But the Emperor loyal forces would have essentially been broken, with no more EMperor to lead them. Then it would only have been Horus, who was mightier than any other Primarch. Â Â *maybe two, because the Dark Angels were sat on the fence during the heresy. Weren't they? No, they weren't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 There are some hints- in Gav Thorpe's Angels of Darkness- and I think possibly in the second of the two Dark Angels Horus Heresy books- that while the Dark Angels were loyal, their primarch might have been lagging in the race for Terra, so that the conflict would be decided and he could side with the winner. Â However- since these hints come from a Fallen Angel- and the scenes in the Dark Angels Heresy books are very ambiguous, its hard to say for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 They do indeed hint that El'Johnson may have sided with whoever was victor, but that doesnt change the fact that both the Ultramarines and Space Wolves certainly would not have. And with the Ultramarines size chances are EL'Johnson would have joined with the other 2 legions and oblitereated Horus from Space if he killed the Emperor and lived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 According to Gav Thorpes afterword he had not included that bit because he had planned it as some kind of revelation, but merely because it was a spontaneous thought he had and that thought would shock the readers. Â The accusation comes from a Fallen Angel. Now, it is a Fallen Angel who is convinced that he himself is still loyal to the Emperor and that it had been Jonson, not Luther, who was the traitor during the battle for Caliban. How he came to the conclusion that Jonson was "waiting to see which side would win" was very simple: In his exile, the Fallen Angel had learned and heard stories about the Heresy. He heard the stories about how the Imperial Fists defended the Imperial Palace, how the Blood Angels had fought against the Khorne Daemons, and how the White Scars had pushed back the traitors. But he had not heard any heroic stories about the Dark Angels fighting on terra. How come the tactical genius Jonson was not part of those battles? In the mind of this Fallen Angels there was one logical conclusion: He was not present on purpose. Â Of course, as an Ultramarines fan I am glad that the Fallen Angel did not apply the same logic to the Ultramarines (or Space Wolves), and instead praises Guilliman as the greatest of all the Primarchs at another point. But, well, that makes his conclusions for why the Dark Angels were not on Terra all the more asinine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I quite like the idea that Johnson was waiting to see how the cards fell. Â With the newer fluff from the HH and Collected Visions, had Horus killed the Emperor, the breach in the Webway portal would have resulted in a huge army if daemons arriving in short order to balance things out, given Malcador was virtually dead by the time they got the Emperor back to the throne. So the Ultras et al would have walked into a massive mess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 As the HH series progresses I imagine we'll see more of Jonson's fence sitting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Those who have read Fallen Angels will have found Lion El'Johnson and his motives very interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 If Horus killed the emperor and survived the loyalist forces on Terra would have been broken quickly so when the 3 reinforcement Legions arrived they would have to lay siege to Terra under the flag of the Warmaster Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2622977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I think Horus would have gotten a pretty nifty power boost from chowing down on the Emperor's delicious soul as well, as would the Gods themselves. Â He was a God himself for all intents and purposes, that kind of power being consumed is going to leave a big mark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2623051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher441 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Remember when Horus died the Chaos Powers withdrew their influence from realspace, taking all the daemons and warp entities with them, leaving the already depleted traitor legions with even less support. Â Had Horus won, likely the entire Sol system would have been overcome with warp spawned things, and it is likely that the 3 inbound legions would have been battered by warp storms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2623236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What gets me is that if Horus had killed the emperor on his barge, would the three inbound chapters suddenly say 'Long Live Horus!' because there would be three* legions of very angry marines coming to fight his already battered forces. Â The primary objective of the siege of Terra was to destroy the Emperor, and the secondary to trash it's use as the capital of the Imperium. Horus didn't need to actually hold Terra, and by the time the siege was done there wouldn't be much left anyway, even without all of the daemons that would be unleashed. The loyal forces outnumber him pretty badly, he was pushing for Terra not because he had destroyed everything else and was ready to crown his victory, but in an attempt to crush the Imperium before it could bring its full weight to bear. Â Because the Imperium overall is militarily stronger than the traitor forces, he can't run - if he does, the superior weight will grind him down, and he'll lose support because he'll appear weak. He might even lose the support of the Chaos powers for letting the Emperor live. He's got no chance at defeating the three loyalist legions while continuing the siege, his battered armies simply won't survive that. However, with the Emperor and High Lords of Terra dead, he's won the war. He might have to retreat from Terra temporarily, but there's nothing really to keep the Imperium together, and he can deal with the loyalist legions at his leisure. Moving on after winning isn't the same as retreating in shame, so he will have more worlds turning to him, and it's not even clear that the loyalists would stay unified against him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2623860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 According to Gav Thorpes afterword he had not included that bit because he had planned it as some kind of revelation, but merely because it was a spontaneous thought he had and that thought would shock the readers. Â The accusation comes from a Fallen Angel. Now, it is a Fallen Angel who is convinced that he himself is still loyal to the Emperor and that it had been Jonson, not Luther, who was the traitor during the battle for Caliban. How he came to the conclusion that Jonson was "waiting to see which side would win" was very simple: In his exile, the Fallen Angel had learned and heard stories about the Heresy. He heard the stories about how the Imperial Fists defended the Imperial Palace, how the Blood Angels had fought against the Khorne Daemons, and how the White Scars had pushed back the traitors. But he had not heard any heroic stories about the Dark Angels fighting on terra. How come the tactical genius Jonson was not part of those battles? In the mind of this Fallen Angels there was one logical conclusion: He was not present on purpose. Â Of course, as an Ultramarines fan I am glad that the Fallen Angel did not apply the same logic to the Ultramarines (or Space Wolves), and instead praises Guilliman as the greatest of all the Primarchs at another point. But, well, that makes his conclusions for why the Dark Angels were not on Terra all the more asinine. Â well. i think we found enough proof here to write him off as crazy... <_< Â WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2623924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Moving on after winning isn't the same as retreating in shame, so he will have more worlds turning to him, and it's not even clear that the loyalists would stay unified against him. Â This reminds me that at some point Horus said he hoped Jaghatai Khan would join him. I don't remember if it is in the HH serie or in Visions. I wonder why he would think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Moving on after winning isn't the same as retreating in shame, so he will have more worlds turning to him, and it's not even clear that the loyalists would stay unified against him. Â This reminds me that at some point Horus said he hoped Jaghatai Khan would join him. I don't remember if it is in the HH serie or in Visions. I wonder why he would think so. Â Said in the Collected Visions, probably due to the blood thirsty nature of the White Scars and the society he was found in... Â more proof that Horus was off his rocker before the taint imo. Â WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 He also thought that Ferrus would come over; reference page 402 of Fulgrim, where Horus says, "The Iron Hands were essential to my plans." Apparently, he thought that Ferrus held the Mechanicum (the Fabricator General did turn) in greater esteem than the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If Horus had won and had killed the Emperor what would happen would fall right into the Chaos gods hands. The 3 loyalist legions would probably not know of the Emperors death until they arrived at Terra and by then it would be too late. The White Scars, Blood Angels, Imperial Fist alongside their remaining Primarchs would all be finished off by the Traitors and the Custodes and Sisters of Silence and the Imperial Army too. The 3 loyalist legions (especially Russ) would fall upon Horus and his traitors with vengeance never before seen. In a battle that would last weeks or months the two sides would crush each other, the unlimited daemons on Terra giving the Traitors an edge and due to a very turbulent warp the loyalists cannot escape. The loyalists would fall and so would their Primarchs until the very battered Traitor legions are left and the daemons. In his moment of triumph there is treachery as the Chaos gods turn on Horus and his brothers, the daemons slowly destroying each of the legions and killing the Primarchs. What he has done drives him crazy, Horus laments and regrets everything but it is too late. Finally they are destroyed and there is no force capable in the galaxy of destroying Chaos, the Emperor and all his sons are dead and the Imperium is no more. The galaxy is now the playground of Chaos and humanity is its play thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Why do people severely underestimate the capabilities of the traitor legions? remember there were 5 traitor legions against 3 loyalist defenders. If the reinforcements arrived then it would still only be 5 against 6 but the traitors had hordes of daemons with them. technically the two factions were evenly matched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'm not underestimating them but the traitors and loyalists on Terra would all be suffering horrendous casualties, it is just that one of the arriving legions -Ultramarines- are the largest of all and even after suffering at the hands of the Word Bearers at Calth(no idea on the numbers of Ultramarines or Word Bearers killed) I'd bet they'd still be the size of two legions and a bit more. Either way if Horus had won the Chaos gods would kill him and the traitors and arriving loyalists alike by flooding Terra with daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Why do people severely underestimate the capabilities of the traitor legions? remember there were 5 traitor legions against 3 loyalist defenders. If the reinforcements arrived then it would still only be 5 against 6 but the traitors had hordes of daemons with them. technically the two factions were evenly matched. Â Because Chaos sucks! B). Â Really, it's because of the numbers of the Ultras, and the reputation of the Wolves that people feel the reinforcements would have been decisive - on top of the siege by that stage still being unsuccessful. Â As an aside, I don't think the Chaos Gods would have betrayed and killed Horus and his legions if he had killed the Emperor. They want worshippers doing their bidding in the real world, and the Chaos marines are pretty useful slaves. R Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If the Cabal are to be believed Horus would have gone on to exterminate mankind which would have resulted in the Chaos gods death. If Horus wins the Chaos gods now have free reign in the galaxy, there is no Emperor or Imperium to challenge/stop them. So killing Horus, the other Primarchs and their respective legions -the only forces capable of mounting any defence against them- would not harm them in any way really seeing as they have the countless worlds set up by the Word Bearers beforehand to worship them and easy access the rest of humanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/#findComment-2624668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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