BearersOfSalvation Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If the Cabal are to be believed Horus would have gone on to exterminate mankind which would have resulted in the Chaos gods death. That's a pretty big 'if', though. I wouldn't trust the cabal if they said the sky was blue, they're pretty clearly not trustworthy. And regardless of trustworthiness, their predictions clearly aren't accurate - pretty much the direct opposite of what they say would happen actually happened. They said that Horus would go on to win and exterminate mankind if the Alpha Legion joined the traitor forces, and that if the Alpha Legion stayed loyal then the Imperium would turn into what it is 'today', but instead the AL joined the traitors and we got the Imperium of 'today'. Personally, I think the Alpharius and Omegon actually saw something different in the pattern, and didn't really turn on the Imperium, but instead pretended loyalty to Horus but steer events away from either option the Cabal mentioned. In the 10,000 years since the Heresy they have actually grown corrupt, but at the time they were trying subterfuge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2624684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think A&O started off intent on making sure that Horus won for the good of existence, but somewhere along the lines were corrupted and threw their lot in entirely with the Traitors. We won't know one way or another for a good long while, sadly. I kind of wish HH novels came out more often ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2625092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hengist Ironfang Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Another reason for the traitors withdrawal was the fact that the entire Blood Angels legion fell temporarily into the Black Rage on the death of Sanguinius, they pretty much broke the siege on their own at that point what with the traitors leader dead. The BA went nuts and threw themselves at the traitors as they were falling back and slaughtered them in huge numbers, the Scars and Fists had the good sense to follow them and consolidate their gains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2625498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I think A&O started off intent on making sure that Horus won for the good of existence, but somewhere along the lines were corrupted and threw their lot in entirely with the Traitors. We won't know one way or another for a good long while, sadly. I kind of wish HH novels came out more often ... Wouldn't expect their loyalties to be any further clarified in any HH or BL novels tbh. The whole "are they or aren't they" thing is too cool a position for the chapter fluffwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2625921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I think A&O started off intent on making sure that Horus won for the good of existence, but somewhere along the lines were corrupted and threw their lot in entirely with the Traitors. We won't know one way or another for a good long while, sadly. I kind of wish HH novels came out more often ... Wouldn't expect their loyalties to be any further clarified in any HH or BL novels tbh. The whole "are they or aren't they" thing is too cool a position for the chapter fluffwise. Oh, absolutely. But I enjoy discourse on the subject, and I want some new evidence to swing the conversations one way or the other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2626740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Why do people severely underestimate the capabilities of the traitor legions? remember there were 5 traitor legions against 3 loyalist defenders. If the reinforcements arrived then it would still only be 5 against 6 but the traitors had hordes of daemons with them. technically the two factions were evenly matched. This is something that always bothered me. There were 18 Legions, 9 of which turned to Chaos and another 3 were destroyed at the drop site massacre. Horus was a tactical genius with the full support of all 4 Greater Powers and their hosts of daemons plus a significant portion of the army, navy and Mechanicum. HOW THE HELL DID HE MANAGE TO COCK IT UP SO BADLY? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2627404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 HOW THE HELL DID HE MANAGE TO COCK IT UP SO BADLY? I put a big part of the blame on Horus' failure to properly discipline the Emperor's Children. Remember that Fulgrim's boys didn't participate in the Siege, they spent their time torturing civilians. If Horus had another full Legion dedicated to breaking the Imperial Palace's defenses and keeping the spaceports secure I think he wins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2627412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 This is something that always bothered me. There were 18 Legions, 9 of which turned to Chaos and another 3 were destroyed at the drop site massacre. Horus was a tactical genius with the full support of all 4 Greater Powers and their hosts of daemons plus a significant portion of the army, navy and Mechanicum. HOW THE HELL DID HE MANAGE TO COCK IT UP SO BADLY? "The Emperor Protects"!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2627415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Horus, whilst having half the legions didn't have half the legions numerically because of the Ultramarines apparently vast size and the losses already taken by his space marines during purging, dropsite and whatever happens during Age of Darkness period. Having gotten the Ultra's, Wolves and Dark Angels out of the way temporarily, he went for the Emperor on Terra using his usual speartip tactic, "cut off the head and the body will die". He was under incredible time pressure to pull this off, he knew that UM (the largest legion), SW (the fiercest legion), and DA (arguably best generalled legion) were on their way, presumably with other Imperial Army support forces too. If he could kill the Emperor before they arrived morale would be very low (non existent?) for the loyalists and their capitulation would be easier to handle. In fact the chasing legions might well pull out from a head to head confrontation knowing the Emperor was gone. When you're under that kind of pressure you make mistakes and he made a few. Largely failing to control the indiscipline that came with Chaos thus losing the EC and not making best use of WE and then caving in to the pressure to force a game win/lose with the Emperor by lowering his shields (if indeed Horus actually ordered this). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2627512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 That and this was a SIEGE. You always need greater numbers when besieging anywhere if you're gonna even stand a chance of getting in. I can't remember the ratios but think to SoI where the Iron Warriors and their slaves vastly outnumber the enemy and yet it still takes time and they still take heavy losses. Slightly higher numbers only gets you half way there in a siege, you need a lot more than slightly higher to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2627570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 He was under incredible time pressure to pull this off, he knew that UM (the largest legion), SW (the fiercest legion), and DA (arguably best generalled legion) were on their way, presumably with other Imperial Army support forces too. If he could kill the Emperor before they arrived morale would be very low (non existent?) for the loyalists and their capitulation would be easier to handle. In fact the chasing legions might well pull out from a head to head confrontation knowing the Emperor was gone. Could not agree more. Horus may have been the greatest warrior of his age or any other but try to picture knowing that a clock is ticking and when it reaches zero not only have you failed in your goal but you're more than likely going to be annihilated along with all of your follows and even the greatest general would come close to cracking from that alone. In all likelihood, the knowledge that there's a factor in battle that you have no control over, only the vaguest estimate of and no chance of countering would drive most men mad. That's even before taking into account that the legions in question are the largest (3/5 of the loyalist marines were Ultramarines by the end of the Siege of Terra), one legion has already broken another (or possibly more depending what you believe from the words of Leman Russ) and a legion renowned for strategic warfare. On a personal point of view, I'm still hoping against hope that the real reason the shields on the Vengeful Spirit were lowered would be through the actions of Horus Aximand finally succumbing to his guilt. Far reached but cool ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2628408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain areias Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 My opinion the reason the traitors couldnt crack the palace is because 1.Rogal Dorn arguably the greatest defence speacialist of the primarchs, woulda slowed down the traitors by a :cussload and 2.the traitors had the loyalists on the back leg when Sanguinius decided to hold the eternity gate gate by himself for a while and beat the crap outta a lot of daemons and 3.the fact that the traitors allowed Jagatai Khan pretty much take a spaceport which dropped reinforcements and supplies to a trickle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2628507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 My opinion the reason the traitors couldnt crack the palace is because 1.Rogal Dorn arguably the greatest defence speacialist of the primarchs, woulda slowed down the traitors by a :cussload and 2.the traitors had the loyalists on the back leg when Sanguinius decided to hold the eternity gate gate by himself for a while and beat the crap outta a lot of daemons and 3.the fact that the traitors allowed Jagatai Khan pretty much take a spaceport which dropped reinforcements and supplies to a trickle. They did crack the Palace. There were World Eaters duelling Custodes in the halls of the Palace while the Emperor and his hit squad teleported aboard Vengeful Spirit. Peturabo knew his business. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2628750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 They did crack the Palace. There were World Eaters duelling Custodes in the halls of the Palace while the Emperor and his hit squad teleported aboard Vengeful Spirit. Peturabo knew his business. The Chaos folks could still have won if they had persevered. They knew that the Emperor has just slain Horus on the Vengeful Spirit. Consider then the Emperor's position. He has only two places to go. One, stay on the Vengeful Spirit, or two, teleport back down. If the Chaos forces stay and fight, they take the palace and the Emperor's only place of retreat. Further, Chaos had at the time total space superiority. In the time they wasted retreating to their capital ships, the Chaos forces could instead have killed the Emperor outright by destroying the Vengeful Spirit, which wasn't going anywhere or defending itself seeing as its crew had just been killed by the Emperor's forces. If the Emperor instead teleports back down to the Palace to avoid that fate, he arrives right into the waiting arms of the World Eaters and Daemon Prince Angron, where in his condition he's easy prey. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2628920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 so i was wondering. when Horus was killed by the emperor. Did some other major event happen that made the traitors retreat or did they just fall back because Horus died? At the OP, I suppose, the simple way of looking at this is to ask yourself one question, What was Horus's goal in Seiging Terra? To kill the Emperor. Dying in the coarse of trying to achieve that, and having the Emperor survive caused an enormous problem. Horus was the beacon that held the non-loyalist Astartes "together", and with him gone, his army, rather, the many fragmented armies that made up his force, have no one to answer to. Horus, the brightest star, barely kept it all together (but he did). Imagine when the news hits, that he is dead and the Emperor yet lives, who is taking hold of the ship in the worst part of the storm? Angron? Fulgrim? Perturabo? Mortarion? Mortal flesh bound Daemons? Alpharius or Curze (depending on fluff)? A better question to ask yourself ... of those names, who is willing to follow another's orders? This was a well planned, well oiled machine, and the engine died, and rather than riding out the de-acceleration, they hit the breaks. If it was as simple as, "let's keep fighting, we're doing great, we've almost won, even though Horus is dead", even if they did sunder Terra and butcher all the defenders after the events on the Vengeful Spirit, they have no victory without the True Emperor, Horus. What is a realistic outcome that one CAN choose, life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2628935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roninman Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 so i was wondering. when Horus was killed by the emperor. Did some other major event happen that made the traitors retreat or did they just fall back because Horus died? Hello longtime reader here but first post. When Horus died, his demons allies went back to warp. This and because of their leader died they didnt have no coordination on ground anymore. Add to this Blood Angels berserking charge after death of their Primarch, traitor forces on ground couldnt win anymore. Traitor Primarchs knew at this point that it was lost and started fleeing back to their ships and left their human allies mostly behind them. They would have all been crushed when loyalist reinforcements arrived. Horus was the force that held all together and without him there was no chance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2629008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 If Horus had won and had killed the Emperor what would happen would fall right into the Chaos gods hands. The 3 loyalist legions would probably not know of the Emperors death until they arrived at Terra and by then it would be too late. The White Scars, Blood Angels, Imperial Fist alongside their remaining Primarchs would all be finished off by the Traitors and the Custodes and Sisters of Silence and the Imperial Army too. The 3 loyalist legions (especially Russ) would fall upon Horus and his traitors with vengeance never before seen. In a battle that would last weeks or months the two sides would crush each other, the unlimited daemons on Terra giving the Traitors an edge and due to a very turbulent warp the loyalists cannot escape. The loyalists would fall and so would their Primarchs until the very battered Traitor legions are left and the daemons. In his moment of triumph there is treachery as the Chaos gods turn on Horus and his brothers, the daemons slowly destroying each of the legions and killing the Primarchs. What he has done drives him crazy, Horus laments and regrets everything but it is too late. Finally they are destroyed and there is no force capable in the galaxy of destroying Chaos, the Emperor and all his sons are dead and the Imperium is no more. The galaxy is now the playground of Chaos and humanity is its play thing. Oh I see you beat me to it. Had Horus won, the ONLY victor would have been Chaos. Not the Traitor Legions, not Humanity, just Chaos, with the biggest threat to their realm finally out of the way. The Chaos Legions were largely spent and lacked logistical support. They had no defensive positions, loyalist defenders still held large parts of the Imperial Palace, and the Traitors had smashed the orbital defenses to get to the defenders denying themselves their use. Maintaining the Siege while trying to hold back a numerically superior foe is not an ideal situation. Would they have folded like a house of cards? Unlikely. Would they have been ruined by the conflict? Almost certainly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2629281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain areias Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 My opinion the reason the traitors couldnt crack the palace is because 1.Rogal Dorn arguably the greatest defence speacialist of the primarchs, woulda slowed down the traitors by a :cussload and 2.the traitors had the loyalists on the back leg when Sanguinius decided to hold the eternity gate gate by himself for a while and beat the crap outta a lot of daemons and 3.the fact that the traitors allowed Jagatai Khan pretty much take a spaceport which dropped reinforcements and supplies to a trickle. They did crack the Palace. There were World Eaters duelling Custodes in the halls of the Palace while the Emperor and his hit squad teleported aboard Vengeful Spirit. Peturabo knew his business. think i mighta have said my post wrong,the traitors were in but it took a damn long time, from what i know the eternity gate was breached but it took 3 days or summat but the rest is right but to be fair if say leman russ organised the defence it probs would cracked lot sooner not dissing the wolves just saying its not their area of expertise Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2629745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
like the lion Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 how do you guys know so much? whats books can i start reading to know the whole story about the horus heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2629937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatox Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 If you wanted to learn all you can about the heresy, there's no better place to start than the Horus Heresy novels themselves. There are a lot but most of them are gripping reads and full of information :) Malatox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2629966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I think A&O started off intent on making sure that Horus won for the good of existence, but somewhere along the lines were corrupted and threw their lot in entirely with the Traitors. We won't know one way or another for a good long while, sadly. I kind of wish HH novels came out more often ... Wouldn't expect their loyalties to be any further clarified in any HH or BL novels tbh. The whole "are they or aren't they" thing is too cool a position for the chapter fluffwise. Interestingly enough, the "are they or aren't they thing" bugs me to no end. It serves no function and the evidence is pretty solid that they are traitors. Fought alongside Horus, turned to Chaos as a tool if not outright worship, and fought against the Imperium of man. I wish the authors would stop trying to make their actions/motivations ambiguous when the rest of the fluff pretty much lays out that they are traitors. Can't we go back to the good old school motivation of "Because they could." Used to love them because they seemed the most honest of the Traitor legions. No "Daddy never bought me a pony so LET THE GALAXY BURN" schtick. Just a closer bond with Horus rather than the Emperor and a desire to upset the status quo while testing themselves against the hardest forces in the galaxy at that point: Other Astartes Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2630523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Horus, whilst having half the legions didn't have half the legions numerically because of the Ultramarines apparently vast size and the losses already taken by his space marines during purging, dropsite and whatever happens during Age of Darkness period. Having gotten the Ultra's, Wolves and Dark Angels out of the way temporarily, he went for the Emperor on Terra using his usual speartip tactic, "cut off the head and the body will die". He was under incredible time pressure to pull this off, he knew that UM (the largest legion), SW (the fiercest legion), and DA (arguably best generalled legion) were on their way, presumably with other Imperial Army support forces too. If he could kill the Emperor before they arrived morale would be very low (non existent?) for the loyalists and their capitulation would be easier to handle. In fact the chasing legions might well pull out from a head to head confrontation knowing the Emperor was gone. When you're under that kind of pressure you make mistakes and he made a few. Largely failing to control the indiscipline that came with Chaos thus losing the EC and not making best use of WE and then caving in to the pressure to force a game win/lose with the Emperor by lowering his shields (if indeed Horus actually ordered this). Whilst all the above is true, I'm still left wondering why Horus went to all the trouble of diverting and delaying the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves rather than simply confronting them individually with massively superior numbers and either wiping them out piecemeal or (in the case of Dark Angels) even have them join up. After he's done all that the Emperor will still be sitting on Terra waiting for him and now he has no time pressure. Oh well, makes for a better story I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2631424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchen Knife Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Just to drop my two cents: I think the death of horus and the retreat of the daemons and traitor marines is an old fluff problem. Written in the year anno 19 something, there was not so much fluff regarding the HH. And now GW and the BL has to write some sense in the somewhat meager facts, without creating a complete different 40K universe. Might be the reason, why the emperor (almighty, great and blablabla) didn't had the intelligence/ideas/emotions to deal properly with all the primarchs, especially the ones who went chaos (best example Angron, Magnus, Lorgar...) :P Besides, the battle between Horus and the emperor is absolutley climatic, full of self sacrifice and fits to the "Cut off the Head and the body will fall"-strategy. Luckily Alpharius and Omegon weren't the chosen ones of chaos :) And even after the battle with Horus, was the emperor really good for any further battle? According to the fluff, he was nearly dead. So in this state, every other traitor primarch would had the chance to slay the emperor (just think of some demonic enhanced Angron finishing the wounded emperor, eating his soul etc...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2631606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Interestingly enough, the "are they or aren't they thing" bugs me to no end. It serves no function and the evidence is pretty solid that they are traitors. Fought alongside Horus, turned to Chaos as a tool if not outright worship, and fought against the Imperium of man. I wish the authors would stop trying to make their actions/motivations ambiguous when the rest of the fluff pretty much lays out that they are traitors. Can't we go back to the good old school motivation of "Because they could." Used to love them because they seemed the most honest of the Traitor legions. No "Daddy never bought me a pony so LET THE GALAXY BURN" schtick. Just a closer bond with Horus rather than the Emperor and a desire to upset the status quo while testing themselves against the hardest forces in the galaxy at that point: Other Astartes Legions. Just a difference of opinion thing I guess. To me, the "we just want to prove ourselves by fighting our big brothers" motivation they used to have was an incredibly thin and difficult to believe. The loyalty to Horus, and the hatred of the Ultras was more believable, but still, I always felt it wasn't properly explained previously why they fell. Remember, in universe, all the fluff we've seen about them besides Legion was from the Imperium's perspective, where, apart from anything else, opposition to the current regime = heretical traitor to mankind in the eyes of the Inquisition and loyalists. I like that the fluff now allows me scope to view them in a way that I like - IMO they are genuinely renegades, in that they violently hate what the Imperium became after the Emperor ascended to the throne, and want to destroy it, but they are not Chaos-followers either. When they associate with Chaos followers, it's to manipulate them to their own goals. Just my view of course - but they are really the only traitor legion I find really interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2631632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglefists13 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 They left because they were beaten. With Horus dead they lost any cohesiona and chaos being chaos took all the demons back. The Emperor's Children had already left the battlefield to kill and experiment on 1 million terrans. So Angron and Perturabo would of had to choose to run quickly or face total annihilation in space by the loyalists coming back. As we know that the remaining Word Bearers and Alphas werent coming to their aid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219823-the-seige-of-terra/page/2/#findComment-2631666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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