Space Wolf: Fluffbusters (Mythbusters)

[MaveriK]

I realize that fluff and game-mechanics don't always co-exist when it comes to the rules and actual game play. We also know that when it comes to science fiction, anything is possible. These fluffbuster trends are here to entertain and help shed some insight into the Space Wolf fluff that we all know and love. That and I'd like to keep our forum here at Bolter and Chainsword stand apart from all the rest! I have seen many people on these boards argue about certain pieces of fluff that seem over the top. In order to have more of an understand with a certain piece of fluff, and with your help. I've decided to do some experimenting to see if the questioned fluff can be explained through "common sense" and with what facts and information we have today. From there we can conclude whether the fluff is; busted, plausible, or confirmed (fan-boy/lazy imagination).

 

WOLF GUARD RANULF

(pg 67. Second Edition Space Wolf Codex)

 

Okay, so we know from the Ragnar series that it's possible for a space marine to have abnormalities in physical appearance. We see and are told this with Haegr the Mountain. So explaining Ranulf's size is a no brainer there! and now, how do we go about this experiment? with the standard and current rules, is it possible for a pack of wolf guard terminators today to hold the line, in a 300 Spartan's style against a green tide of orks? We know from his fluff and last stand that Ranulf was equipped with terminator armour, power fist and storm bolter. So with your help, and or experiences this experiment can come into fruition!

 

so how would you update his rules and special rules in order to try and understand this piece of fluff? Do you think Ranulf's last stand is plausible, or busted in today standards. I guess in a way, we can almost write up a new scenario to represent, or recreate his famous last stand. But first, I think we need to come up with new stats for the guy! or would it be more easier if we played and used rules from 2nd edition? This is a great excuse to go up against a fellow ork player.

 

--EDIT--

First, I'd like to hear your experiences using Loganwing, against orks. Is Ranulf's last stand doable? let me hear those gears moving! and please share your experiences and conclusions with your own experiments.

[Coverfire]

Crap... I must have lent my 2nd edition codex out... Ranulf was the one the died during this last stand right?

 

I never fielded him because of that fact... I mean, he's dead right?

 

The other thing that I couldn't believe was how the Orks did not molest his corpse, and created a pyre in respect for him. Though Orks only respect power - second edition Chaos could field ork fodder - I can't imagine that being extended to include Ranulf and especially in this scenario.

 

My main reason runs thusly:

 

Orks do respect power and as I have stated they would do many thing to get it. Helping Chaos though suicidal but may be very rewarding. The only power and respect gain here would be amongst those Orks that killed Ranulf, as there would have been a huge power vacuum to fill. I could see the Ork (or strongest of the multiple Orks) that slew him taking his head/weapon/talismans as a trophy in order to cement his victory and rallying the rest of the Orks to side with him as he was the one who slew this powerful demi-god.

 

I would like to hear if anyone believes that the fluff is plausible and their reasoning behind it.

 

EDIT: I know that wasn't exactly where the Original Poster wanted to go with this thread... my bad.

 

As for what type of Wolf guard in a current edition scenario that would help recreate Ranulf... look no further than Arjac.

 

The stories are very similar. The powerful being with a Thunderhammer, the heroic and self sacrificing last stand in order to save others. The only differences are really that Ranulf was already Astartes - don't get me started on Arjac being picked to become Logan's Champion right then and there, that is for another fluffbusting episode - and the fact that although Arjac very nearly died, he didn't... oh, and the tentacled kraken didn't attempt to pay homage to him after he thwarted their invasion and annihilated thousands of their numbers, which was a little remiss of them really.

[Vassakov]

What Coverfire said - I think that Ranulf has been "reincarnated" in the form of Arjac Rockfist. The fluff is very similar, the loadout is also close (and who needs a stormbolter when you can lob a hammer at them?)

 

As for "is it possible for Wolf Guard Terminators to hold against a tide of Orks?" - I'd be inclined to say yes, but not forever. Given my fairly standard WGTDA build (5 Termies, Wolf Claws on one, Assault Cannon and Special CCW, TH&SS, CF&SB and then one more with either Claws or TH&SS) you'd probably take down a fair few.

 

If we assume the normal sort of Orks, with maybe the occassional PF scattered in there - and given the fluff, taking them on 1 Mob at a time, then yes I'd say they could hold for a fair while with average dice. But eventually, they would all die - maybe taking 3/4 Mobs with them (remember, fearless Orks take a pounding from "No Retreat")

[Wysten]

Thing you got to remember here is that the passage he was defending was fairly thin, which went some way to nagating the size advantage orks normally have. Since only orks in base contact and within 2 inches can take part in the melee, the numbers advantage is largely nagated, resulting in it being a test of endurance rather then whether they can hold off entire Ork Hordes single handiedly.

 

Undoubtably, the first combat would be an WAAAGGGH, which means they will strike at the same time as the terminators to my memory. From every phase onwards, they will strike slower, which means the more wounds the wolfguard deal the less wounds they have to test for in the resulting phase. They will also be very unlikely to lose combat due to being better at wounding the Orks then the Orks are at wounding them so retreating is not an option until they are really battered.

 

I could see a squad of 10/6 terminators lead by him holding the pass for a considerable length of time, provided they managed to hold their ground against the intial wave I could see them holding out against waves of boys for a considerable length of time. With only about 10/15 Ork boys being able to get in reach every turn they will be hardpressed to deal damage until the termies lines start to thin out.

 

The only way to do it would be this: Recreate the battle, put X amount of Wolfguard in the pass and basically throw boys at them in a constant stream, mixing in some power claws and basically seeing how long it will take to kill them all. What statline Rannulf uses will also make a huge difference.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I do know that this previous weekend, my WG squad saw off 2-3 "serious" attempts by Orks to prevent them from killing a Titan.

 

the loadout was Logan, Arjac, Njal, 2 CF+SS in TDA.

 

I was assaulted 2, and shoot at by 30 boyz. I must have been marked by Russ, for i didnt take a single wound. the first combat i killed the squad off and the 2nd i only killed 17 of 30, but fearless did the rest!

 

so i think it is managable, but i havent had proper experiment.

 

WLK

[MaveriK]

as I was writing this trend, Arjac did come to mind. The only thing that may go against Ranulf, is that he was equip with just a storm bolter and power fist. So in close combat, he strikes last against the mob of orks. As mentioned above, the bottle neck effect makes a huge difference. And since his fluff was written during 2nd edition, our wolf guard terminator stats were allot different, and I think.. not quite sure here and going off by memory. I remember we could only ever field no more than 20 wolf guard, and we could put more assault cannons. Anyway, in today's standards, or even experiment... a Rune Priest with murderous hurricane would helped out in his last stand. I agree with what Coverfire said, and I'm not sure what ork players might think. But I'd like to hear from there perspective on how or what they would do to his body. Either way, I love Ranulf's fluff. He is one of those iconic characters of legend.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

as I was writing this trend, Arjac did come to mind. The only thing that may go against Ranulf, is that he was equip with just a storm bolter and power fist. So in close combat, he strikes last against the mob of orks. As mentioned above, the bottle neck effect makes a huge difference. And since his fluff was written during 2nd edition, our wolf guard terminator stats were allot different, and I think.. not quite sure here and going off by memory. I remember we could only ever field no more than 20 wolf guard, and we could put more assault cannons. Anyway, in today's standards, or even experiment... a Rune Priest with murderous hurricane would helped out in his last stand. I agree with what Coverfire said, and I'm not sure what ork players might think. But I'd like to hear from there perspective on how or what they would do to his body. Either way, I love Ranulf's fluff. He is one of those iconic characters of legend.

 

Thats how i pulled my trick off. my termies were between a Emp Titan and a Stompa, barely leaving enough room for my Terminators...the 30 Orks could only bring so many against me while i got to swing for the fences!

Preferred Enemy and S8 carve through Orks with ease.

 

WLK

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

When Ranulf was written up the rules and mechanics were different. I don't have my 2nd edition rule book or Space Wolf Codex with me, but there were some things that have radically changed, so the question is are we doing the scenario as the death of Ranulf or just seeing if it's possible? Which edition rules are we using? Give us more info than is it possible for this to happen.

 

BTW the answer is yes. Njal and a 7 Man unit of Grey Hunters carved up 60 out of 80 orks before finally succumbing.

[Vassakov]

I suppose the key consideration is whether we are going to run with Ranulf as a normal Wolf Guard, or a new character, or perhaps a Wolf Guard Battle Leader (with Saga of the Bear to represent his size?) The other key piece of info would be how big his Wolf Guard squad is.

 

I stand by what I said earlier, a well equipped squad of Wolf Guard on a confined zone of engagement will be able to kill a lot of Orks through sheer toughness and the "No Retreat" rule. How many, I'm not sure. Depends on charges and suchforth, but it's certainly not implausible for 5/6 Wolf Guard to take on maybe 100 Orks if they can't bring their full numbers to bear.

 

@ Wolf Lord Kieran - As entertaining as your account is, I'm not sure we can use it as a yardstick for this - 3 of the nastiest heroes in our book, whilst awesome doesn't really fit the critera we have here. Although given the Movie Marines depiction of Astartes in the fluff... :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@vassakov: Oh, i know, but if you knew just how poor my normal dice standards are you would know just how amazing it is for me to accomplish that much!

 

WLK

[Quillen]

What is the point of fluffbusting? I mean I play 40k for the fluff. The Fluff from RogueTrader and early White Dwarf mags sold me on the game 20 years ago.

 

As to replaying the fight. I use to use him back in Second Edition. And you would be supprised what charctors could do under those rules. It was called hero hammer for a reason.

Add in some super luck on save rolls and a heroe in termy armor could spank 2 or 3 squads.

I had Ragnar kill 5 squads as well as take the shooting from the entire Eldar side in one game. They unloaded everything on him and he saved it all and then started splatting stuff.

 

As I asked the first time, why try and debunk heroic fluff of a chapter known for heroic fluff. Sagas are what they are. Like the Beowulf movie, the trueth is never as awesome as the story told after.

 

He was a Big Marine. He held a small opening against an ork horde with his squad. They finally died. The Orks are empressed and bury him with honours cause of his fighting power. Enough said.

 

Heck nothing in 40k is truely real to physics. It's 40k.

Las guns will never exist. Bolters sorta do now with the AA 12.

The birth of the bolter.

 

I would like to see states for him now. He would be Arjac thou. Which is pretty much what they did. He is reborn.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

What would probably happen is thus:

The Wolf Guard win combat because of the bottleneck.

Our mighty 30 man boyz squad takes some more wounds through No Retreat.

This repeats until the Orks have ten or fewer left. They then run away and are shot in the back by the Wolf Guard. They are then assaulted by the Guard and are mercilessly slaughtered.

[Ullr Direfang]

I think that if you had Ranulfs state line (I think he was WS 5, and had higher S, T, A. Not sure on all of those but I think 1 or 2 of them at least) and a 9 other WGTDAs with an AsC and HF or 2 HF and a bunch of WC, PW, FW combos that it would probable work out well for the WG. I do think that a bottle neck of some kind would be required, as has been said, to assist as to how the "myth"/fluff actually turned out.

 

Ranulf was one of the reasons I wanted to play wolves. SO I guess that that adds to the whole thinkg from my side.

[MaveriK]

@Quillen. Buzzkillington... :sweat: LOL jk! I have nothing against the fluff! for most people who are into Space Wolves, it's what drew them in from the first place. It's what drew me in since the good old rogue trader days. These trends are meant to be just for FUN, to get the gears rolling, and have people thinking and talking about said pieces of fluff. I dunno about you, but I like watching mythbusters, and you also get to learn so much.

 

"what is the point of fluffbusting?" from what I've learned in the thunderwolf fluffbuster; only a truly worthy and strong-willed wolf guard, on his lone hunt can overcome such great obstacle. I have a better understanding about that fluff, and a greater respect and appreciation for the unit.

 

dumb-down example of what I'm trying to point out: some cooks learn by reading about cooking. while others learn by watching others and learning on the go.

 

If you don't see the good and think these fluffbusting trends does more harm than good for those who like myself also play 40K for the fluff then I apologize. My intentions wasn't to turn off people from our fluff. Its curiosity and imagination that first built these great stories in the first place. Trying to understand a piece of fluff through experiment and discussions isn't a crime, at least.. I thought it was until now! I'm not trying to burst your bubble, it wasn't my intention and I'll stop these fluffbusting trends.

[Vassakov]

What would probably happen is thus:

The Wolf Guard win combat because of the bottleneck.

Our mighty 30 man boyz squad takes some more wounds through No Retreat.

This repeats until the Orks have ten or fewer left. They then run away and are shot in the back by the Wolf Guard. They are then assaulted by the Guard and are mercilessly slaughtered.

 

Yes, but we're talking about dozens of these units. The question is, how long do the Wolf Guard hold out - in the fluff, they just held the Orks back, but at the cost of their lives.

 

To answer the point about "busting" - well, personally I think it's an interesting way of evaluating our units, their performance and what they can do on the table top. Also, is not the whole point of playing the Son's of Russ to make our own Sagas? If these give us a springboard for engineering such circumstances on the tabletop, then it's worth it IMHO.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I've actually done that using my horde of Battle for Macragge Tyranids(at least three boxes of 'em) and having them come in waves, with dead ones coming back two turns later. Kind of like the final mission in the Macragge box. The current record holder for most rounds survived is a Wolf Lord with Warrior Born, Runic Armor, Belt of Russ, and Two Wolf Claws. They are very, very durable. Should be interesting with Wolf Guard against Orks in disguise as Nids.

[MaveriK]

Did a test game, playing against orks this weekend using Battle Missions, All-Round Defense with a slight modification, by having a bottle neck. Having Arjac as a template for Ranulf giving me an idea of how durable he can be. Had help with Rune Priest, and flame templates worked wonders. It was a fun game/experiment. The bottle neck effect worked similar to Ranulf's last stand. We kept playing until Arjac fell. Which ended up being 8 turns! by then the remaining green skins overtook the compound. But the civilians were long gone by then. It was interesting. I knew that terminators were tough, usually playing against necrons I'm used to having a few dozen dices rolled against me in shooting. My ork friend did mention that it's amazing the orks didn't take his skull or weapon as a trophy. He questioned that part of the fluff.

[Wysten]

Just Arjac held off that many? Interesting, I could see a squad holding out, but a single charcter is quite something.

 

though to be fair a Rune Priest is kind of cheating, Rune Priests were not part of the defense force. Heheheh

[MaveriK]

no it was an actual game, BATTLE MISSIONS: ALL-ROUND DEFENSE. Used loganwing, Rune priest at the back of Arjac's pack. Arjac and his pack of wolfguard holding the front line at the bottleneck, with several other packs supporting him.

 

--EDIT-- my bad should have clarified that in previous post.