Why is the Chaos Codex to Mix and Match and... blah...

[Dire Wolf]

I imagine this may have been discussed at some point, but anyway... I was thinking about the differences between the current codex, and the previous one, and then something (probably incredibly obvious, but anyway...) ocurred to me.

 

Chaos (arguably) are the primary antagonists of the 40K universe. Yet, somehow, they get a single paltry codex, whilst Space Marines get no less than six (one forthcoming, and two out of date, granted)!

 

Would not a Codex for undivided and less chaosy legions like Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion as well as for general renegades like Red Corsairs, and then, seperate Codeci for the dedicated legions, eg. Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Death Guard etc be better?

 

This would ensure that Legion armies better fit the background, at the same time allowing armies like Alpha Legion to be fielded properly.

 

I guess it would never happen. I'm just bitter that chaos gets little love these days. In the Rogue Trader days I swear everyone at GW were members of a Chaos cult!

[the jeske]

Would not a Codex for undivided and less chaosy legions like Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion as well as for general renegades like Red Corsairs, and then, seperate Codeci for the dedicated legions, eg. Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Death Guard etc be better?

because the number of chaos players wont support 2 books , specialy the cult one , unless they would make it realy OP[and the new DT "balances" non loyalist armies nowadays so...] . techncily it would also be very hard to do because as cult legions goes they are offten lack a lot of types of units and GW wont make money if an army doesnt have units for all it slots [yeah I know and now we dont have FA or elites ... but then again chaos dex sales are bad too] . they would also have to write fluff and not do copy pasta , do more models . Actualy work on the rules for many armies etc [which they dont even properly do for loyalists] . Not going to happen. maybe in 2 edition times.

[KaosRaptor]

Not only that, but look at the armies that are still out of date. Necrons, Witch Hunters, and to a lesser extent Tau, BT and DA, all need to be updated, not to mention some Fantasy armies...

Now imagine how slowly each codex/army book would be updated if we threw another 4 Chaos codices into the mix.

I'm with you, Chaos isn't really getting the attention it deserves, and I would love to see rules for dedicated cult units, AL, etc, but it simply isn't practical to write that many books.

[Dire Wolf]

I get what your both saying. And To an extant I agree. But really, the fact that BA, SW, BT and DA all get books somewhat refutes that cult books would be impractical. Also, the argument that cult legions would be limited in scope is flawed, since new books would allow the creation of new units. I mean, look at BA. Where did sanguinary guard and storm ravens come from? And looking at the new dark eldar, new well made codeci with interesting units would attract players to them.

 

Considering the effort people go to for counts as to represent their chosen legion with the csm codex or with another, surely GW could generate interest in others who don't currently play chaos by making such armies easy.

[Grey Mage]

*nods* Codex: Legions has been in demand for years now. Theres no need for a book for each cult... but one to represent the legions would be useful. They could then update the current chaos codex as Chaos: Renegades complete with a Lost and the Damned style list.

 

Have ~35 units for renegades, ~50 for Legions+Cults. Have each list able to take certain units only of course, but only needing one entry each would keep the size down.

 

Each release would bring more interest to chaos, and if theyre well done it would keep it.

 

GW already tried the 'theres not enough interest' line. Look at how successful DE have been.

[Lexington]

Would not a Codex for undivided and less chaosy legions like Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion as well as for general renegades like Red Corsairs, and then, seperate Codeci for the dedicated legions, eg. Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Death Guard etc be better?

Well, no, I don't think so, really. The Cult Legions, by all background, have been shattered into bands of Cult Units who don't really make balanced war-making forces, so they tend to hook up with larger warbands in order to do their thing.

 

As for the non-aligned Legions, I argue that they're also represented quite well, but the onus for making a "proper" army is on the player, rather than the army list. To me, that's a much more satisfying order of things, and the fact that the 3.5/4th Edition era has made players feel that they can't play a faction without special rules is something of a cultural tragedy within the 40Kosphere.

 

*nods* Codex: Legions has been in demand for years now. Theres no need for a book for each cult... but one to represent the legions would be useful. They could then update the current chaos codex as Chaos: Renegades complete with a Lost and the Damned style list.

I hear the current Codex talked up quite a bit as a "Renegades" Codex, but derpy background aside (as it ought be, for the basic dignity of the setting), I really don't know where this ideas is coming from. It's a Traitor Legions list with pre-Heresy wargear, and 90% of the book's Special Characters have been around since the Great Crusade. There's nothing "Renegade" about it.

[Dire Wolf]

Chaos has been defined by special rules nearly since it's inception. May I draw your attention to the publication of a little book called realm of chaos: slaves to darkness. It, along with it's companion volume gave chaos more pages of rules and background than the actual 40k rulebook at the time (yes I am aware it was for fantasy also, most of the background and rules were still valid). Generally, this made non chaos players cry a bit, what with 20 ft tall 6 armed 4 wound marines and whatnot, but despite the flaws it's background and rules made chaos feel rich and special.

 

The only chaos codex since then that has captured the essence of chaos in any meaningful way is the 3.5 codex. Chaos is about variety and well, chaos, not bland cartoon villains who occasionally kill themselves by accident, or who after 10,000 years of war have the ability to sneak in power armour as all they have over their lesser brethren.

 

I would never suggest returning to anything like RoC (it was always more suited to the warband campaign dynamic it presented rather than massed battles), but something like the 3.5 codex, presented in the current format (to reduce confusion) would be great. Though what grey Mage mentioned about two codeci would even better (there being no real way currently, with any codex, to build a chaos cultist army)

[Lexington]

Chaos has been defined by special rules nearly since it's inception. May I draw your attention to the publication of a little book called realm of chaos: slaves to darkness. It, along with it's companion volume gave chaos more pages of rules and background than the actual 40k rulebook at the time

All love to the RoC books (I've got a well-worn pair sitting on my bookshelf), of course, and while one must acknowledge the incredible foundations they set down - both for Chaos and for the 40K universe as a whole - we also need to remember that when we're talking about "Chaos" these days, we're really talking about "Chaos Space Marines," and more specifically, the Traitor Legions. While given some background in the RoC books, the tome that really defined them as the heretics we all know and love was the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, which had an army list that was practically identical to the one they have today, with nary a Legion list in sight.

 

This isn't to say that we should necessarily be satisfied with the current Codex - on the table-top, it's vastly un-satisfying - but I continue to argue that the Traitor Legions are done justice by the choices available in the book, if not their specific rules and points values.

[Verbal Underbelly]

I'm really enjoying this thread! I feel that to be fair one codex based on the current one would be fine. There is enough variety in the units choices and so on and I particularly like the fact that you can mix and match with impunity.

 

The thing that I feel is missing is the lack of unit upgrade options that give extra flavour and tabletop efficacy eg. adding infiltrate/scout to chaos marines to represent Night Lords. Chaos marines are meant to be super experienced and hardened versions of their loyalist counterparts. Chaos was more fun to play when we had small but super elite forces. Aspiring Champions were mini HQs and our tanks were more brutal - I miss being able to upgrade the armour value and repairing broken weapons on a 4+

[the jeske]

While given some background in the RoC books, the tome that really defined them as the heretics we all know and love was the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, which had an army list that was practically identical to the one they have today, with nary a Legion list in sight.

only because when chambers was doing it they gave him the option to choose either demon world and beast man lists or legion rules and he decided that because there were many people from RT times that played those armies and they would be left with nothing he put those in and not the legion rules .

 

And the this book is considered for renegades because either JJ or Alessio at on of the big events in UK when asked about why the chaos dex is so bad at doing legion lists told us that it wasnt the focus of the book and that they wanted to give us more freedom of choice[sic by taking away armies :thanks:] and that a legion book is not out of the question . Then he told us how they didnt think people would use 2xDP , which made it in to may words from the desing gods collection along with JJ "how cool is a 1ksons are led by a khorn lord" from SB.

[Spacefrisian]

Chaos Codex 3.5 could make a single codex work for all legions so why cant a single codex do that again. I actually hate the idea of different codexes for a single type of marine.

[Rik Riorik]

As for the non-aligned Legions, I argue that they're also represented quite well, but the onus for making a "proper" army is on the player, rather than the army list. To me, that's a much more satisfying order of things, and the fact that the 3.5/4th Edition era has made players feel that they can't play a faction without special rules is something of a cultural tragedy within the 40Kosphere.

 

I understand and agree with the sentiment up to a certain point. I do think it is entirely possible to create a varying amount of differently themed Chaos armies, perhaps not supremely points efficient ones but still. I don't necessarily believe though that people want the rules to make the army lists for them but that many, myself included, like to have as many layers as possible that add complexity and diversity to a rather shallow process and end result. I loved the old Imperial Guard Codex with the doctrines precisely because it added that extra layer that made things a little bit different.

 

In much I don't really have to have rules for Legions, I'd be much happier to have "Doctrine" kind of rules where you'd get to pick a few special rules that would/could apply to your force to help make it feel unique in a gaming perspective as well as lending a bit of help to representing some sort of concept for your force in a more aesthetic manner.

 

I hear the current Codex talked up quite a bit as a "Renegades" Codex, but derpy background aside (as it ought be, for the basic dignity of the setting), I really don't know where this ideas is coming from. It's a Traitor Legions list with pre-Heresy wargear, and 90% of the book's Special Characters have been around since the Great Crusade. There's nothing "Renegade" about it.

 

Next Codex I'll be looking forward to seeing them scrap Typhus for Bobby Sixkillah and Lucius for Reno Raines. At least it'll see the introduction of something new to the staleness of special characters that has seen nothing new introduced since what 2nd edition (it has seen things chopped off though)?

[RapatoR]

I imagine this may have been discussed at some point, but anyway... I was thinking about the differences between the current codex, and the previous one, and then something (probably incredibly obvious, but anyway...) ocurred to me.

 

Chaos (arguably) are the primary antagonists of the 40K universe. Yet, somehow, they get a single paltry codex, whilst Space Marines get no less than six (one forthcoming, and two out of date, granted)!

 

Would not a Codex for undivided and less chaosy legions like Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion as well as for general renegades like Red Corsairs, and then, seperate Codeci for the dedicated legions, eg. Codex: World Eaters, Codex: Death Guard etc be better?

 

This would ensure that Legion armies better fit the background, at the same time allowing armies like Alpha Legion to be fielded properly.

 

I guess it would never happen. I'm just bitter that chaos gets little love these days. In the Rogue Trader days I swear everyone at GW were members of a Chaos cult!

I think that making 2 dexes instead of one would be perfect. One for less chaosy marines (IW, AL, NL, Renegades) and more chaosy marines (BL, WB, Cult legions) As DE shown us, things that arent so popular can be made popular by GW. Less chaosy marines could come with some Loyalist and pre-heresy stuff (old armor marks, jetbikes, stormbirds, dreadclaws) as well as stuff made post-heresy that is no more restricted by Codex Astartes restrictions (some new units/new rules for old ones? rhino based machine? new patterns of dreadnought/LR/LS?) and morec chaos could go with mutated tech/demonic machines even undivided cult troops (Chaos preachers - excellent troop for WB) - non-generic deamons, beasts, greater deamons, gifts, deamon weapons.

I think that would lure enough players...

[Dire Wolf]

Exactly.

 

Now one complaint I could have with the 3.5 codex is it was very restrictive. It's established that the legions have by and large disintegrated over the millenia into warbands. But I would imagine those warbands would have their own uniqueness. Within a framework of restrictions over which gods' followers can be folded together, we could have for example, an army built around noise marine jet bikers, or a rhino mounted altar with dark apostle leading a culture horde.

 

Hmmm... I not sure what my point was here... it's late...

 

GO CHAOS!

[the jeske]

. It's established that the legions have by and large disintegrated over the millenia into warbands.

some legions . WB didnt , BL didnt split , NL have a high command which means there is structure to how they act . the only ones that realy broke were WE and EC . Even those legions with sub sects like DG or 1ksons still are mostly under the command of their primarchs .

 

Within a framework of restrictions over which gods' followers can be folded together, we could have for example, an army built around noise marine jet bikers, or a rhino mounted altar with dark apostle leading a culture horde.

your not making sense here . In the 3.5 dex I could have had NM havocks , NM bikers , NM tanks , dreads etc [am not talking here if there were top tier or not] , in the 4th all those units become illegal as soon as I put one troop choice NM unit . So which codex again is more constricting ?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I hear the current Codex talked up quite a bit as a "Renegades" Codex, but derpy background aside (as it ought be, for the basic dignity of the setting), I really don't know where this ideas is coming from. It's a Traitor Legions list with pre-Heresy wargear, and 90% of the book's Special Characters have been around since the Great Crusade. There's nothing "Renegade" about it.

 

How about the quotes from Gav and Alessio saying that they focussed more on Renegades because they thought there was going to be a Legions book later? Specifically:

You see, the thinking was that the book should concentrate more on the Renegade Chapters than the Legions

and that:

It's true that we held back the Legion-specific stuff to leave freedom for potential future releases

 

There you go, a direct quote from an author stating that this book was intended to focus more on Renegades, at the cost of less Legion stuff, in the hopes that a Legion book would be made later.

 

NL have a high command which means there is structure to how they act

Well, I wouldn't say they have a high command, but the various fractured Company remnants are definitely in contact with each other and can mobilise as (what remains of) a Legion still, as seen in Throne of Lies.

[Legatus]

There you go, a direct quote from an author stating that this book was intended to focus more on Renegades, at the cost of less Legion stuff, in the hopes that a Legion book would be made later.

The point about the wargear still stands. So either the book is doing a terrible job representing renegade Chapters, since the book contains the old school traitor legion equipment, or it means that even recently turned traitor Chapters have difficulty maintaining the more advanced technology and start using the simpler auto-cannons and twin-linked boltguns and the like, which basically means all those claims of "I bet my Legion X could loot the advanced vehicles and weapons easily" is now done for.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Which is why I wish they went entirely one way or the other. If you're going to focus on Renegades, damn well do it, and make it a Renegades book. That way there'd be more incentive to eventually do a Legions book, and we wouldn't have all recently turned Rengegades miraculously stumbling across a stockpile of Heresy-era weaponry, while ditching all their recent gear for no reason.

Even so, that doesn't change the fact that the authors have admitted that it focussed more on Renegades. Did they do it badly? Yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it.

 

...Well, they say that's what they did now. As others have said, there's always the possibility they're actually covering their asses, going "We screwed up the Legions? We didn't intend that! We... uhh... chose to do it later, and focus on Renegades instead! Yeah, that's totally it!"

[Dire Wolf]

your not making sense here . In the 3.5 dex I could have had NM havocks , NM bikers , NM tanks , dreads etc [am not talking here if there were top tier or not] , in the 4th all those units become illegal as soon as I put one troop choice NM unit . So which codex again is more constricting ?

 

I know. I lost my train of though as I was typing due to late-night-itis. The current codex is more restrictive. I just would have liked the previous one a bit more if the unit type restrictions weren't there. Things like Plague Raptors would be cool (I know these are now allowed, sort of, before anyone says anything, but current restrictions are more born of a lack of options, than any formal restrictions).

[Lexington]

There you go, a direct quote from an author stating that this book was intended to focus more on Renegades, at the cost of less Legion stuff, in the hopes that a Legion book would be made later.

I've read 'em, but it doesn't change the facts of things - "Renegades" aren't going to be toting Reaper Autocannons or have Terminators that use combi-weapons, nor will they be wearing the pre-Heresy armor marks that the stock model range has. Abbadon the Despoiler's not a "Renegade," nor is Khârn or Fabius Bile. These are Traitor Legionnaires, and the list that accompanies them reflects that.

 

Sure, Gav and Alessio may well have intended to make a "Renegades" army list here, but I don't know why we'd assume they succeeded at the task, given their track record with the rest of the book. :(

[Legatus]

nor will they be wearing the pre-Heresy armor marks that the stock model range has.

I wish. :( One of my biggest gripes with the current Berserker models, the current Chaos Space Marine models and the current Plague Marines and Thousand Sons models is that they are mostly wearing chaotified MK7 armour now. They don't look as old and archaic as the 2nd Editon Chaos Marines did, they look like modern day Marines gone spikey.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There you go, a direct quote from an author stating that this book was intended to focus more on Renegades, at the cost of less Legion stuff, in the hopes that a Legion book would be made later.

I've read 'em, but it doesn't change the facts of things - "Renegades" aren't going to be toting Reaper Autocannons or have Terminators that use combi-weapons, nor will they be wearing the pre-Heresy armor marks that the stock model range has. Abbadon the Despoiler's not a "Renegade," nor is Khârn or Fabius Bile. These are Traitor Legionnaires, and the list that accompanies them reflects that.

 

Sure, Gav and Alessio may well have intended to make a "Renegades" army list here, but I don't know why we'd assume they succeeded at the task, given their track record with the rest of the book. :(

 

What you stated was

I hear the current Codex talked up quite a bit as a "Renegades" Codex, but derpy background aside (as it ought be, for the basic dignity of the setting), I really don't know where this ideas is coming from.

I gave an explanation of "where this idea is coming from", straight from the 'mouth' of an author. The book was intended to be Renegade, not Legion. As I said to Legatus above, just because they intended something doesn't mean they did it well. I wish so, so much that they'd gone heavier on the Renegade focus, so that GW would be more willing to release a Legions book. Instead we're stuck with a horrible 'halfway point' mix that, while not intended to represent Legions, still has enough Legion gear for GW to point at it and say "that represents your Legions, see, it has Heresy-era gear!"

 

As for the Special Characters, each of them actually isn't representative of their wider Legion, as other than Lucius and Abaddon, each has left the wider Legion, (Ahriman was exiled, Typhus left, Bile left and Khârn destroyed his Legion as a coherent force) while Lucius hires himself to whoever lets him fight, and the Black Legion has become so diluted over time by more recent Renegades that it can be almost said to not be a Legion force anymore. We have "Renegade" Characters, although they should have included more, and Abaddon should be in both this and any Legions book that gets made.

 

And I agree, Legatus. I think it's a shame that the Blood Angels and Black Templars, hell, even the standard Loyalist sprue, have older armour Marks than the Chaos sprue. They have some pseudo-Mk. V, that's it. I would kill for a plastic Heresy-era Armour kit. Sadly, given that Forge World just did basically that, it won't be happening for quite some time.

[A D-B]

. It's established that the legions have by and large disintegrated over the millenia into warbands.

some legions . WB didnt , BL didnt split , NL have a high command which means there is structure to how they act . the only ones that realy broke were WE and EC . Even those legions with sub sects like DG or 1ksons still are mostly under the command of their primarchs.

 

Sort of. The Sons of Horus were almost annihilated by the other Legions, and barely existed before Abaddon resurrected it as the Black Legion. The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are the most completely shattered of all, but the others are still broken into warbands of loose allegiances (like independent Space Marine Chapter companies) rather than being loyal wholes, and there's very little that mentions any Night Lord, Iron Warrior or Death Guard unity at all. Even the Night Lords: if most Raptors were once Night Lords, as mentioned here and there, it means plenty of Night Lords now run around as mercenaries in other warbands.

 

Also, bear in mind fully half of the Legion special characters have almost nothing to do with their Legion anymore. Abaddon was the one to completely change his Legion and everything about it. Fabius has no interest in the Emperor's Children. Khârn was the one to actually shatter the World Eaters. Ahriman was kicked out of the Thousand Sons. And these are the examples of Chaos warlords... These are the special characters that embody the Chaos Marines.

 

I think GW's direction is fairly clear.

[Vlâdvar The Destroyer]

. It's established that the legions have by and large disintegrated over the millenia into warbands.

some legions . WB didnt , BL didnt split , NL have a high command which means there is structure to how they act . the only ones that realy broke were WE and EC . Even those legions with sub sects like DG or 1ksons still are mostly under the command of their primarchs.

 

Sort of. The Sons of Horus were almost annihilated by the other Legions, and barely existed before Abaddon resurrected it as the Black Legion. The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are the most completely shattered of all, but the others are still broken into warbands of loose allegiances (like independent Space Marine Chapter companies) rather than being loyal wholes, and there's very little that mentions any Night Lord, Iron Warrior or Death Guard unity at all. Even the Night Lords: if most Raptors were once Night Lords, as mentioned here and there, it means plenty of Night Lords now run around as mercenaries in other warbands.

 

Also, bear in mind fully half of the Legion special characters have almost nothing to do with their Legion anymore. Abaddon was the one to completely change his Legion and everything about it. Fabius has no interest in the Emperor's Children. Khârn was the one to actually shatter the World Eaters. Ahriman was kicked out of the Thousand Sons. And these are the examples of Chaos warlords... These are the special characters that embody the Chaos Marines.

 

I think GW's direction is fairly clear.

 

Be that as it may, it would still be nice to field say a World Eater Warband full of proper Berzerker Marines, Terminators & a lord (+1 Furious charge & fearless, etc) or an Iron Warrior Warband that can field siege engines & servo arms. Word Bearer Warband with a Dark Apostle, First Apostle & Coryphaus & cultists.... I could go on :-P I mean most of this was possible in the pervious dex.... I've seen some people writing their own versions of dexes & I'm doing the same at the moment :tu: Basically a Generic list with the current special characters & then legion specific rules, characters & units.

 

Also I know alot of the legions are splintered into warbands, but there still enough of them out there to made a codex Chaos Legions & Renegades viable. Till then house rules for the win ^_^

[A D-B]

. It's established that the legions have by and large disintegrated over the millenia into warbands.

some legions . WB didnt , BL didnt split , NL have a high command which means there is structure to how they act . the only ones that realy broke were WE and EC . Even those legions with sub sects like DG or 1ksons still are mostly under the command of their primarchs.

 

Sort of. The Sons of Horus were almost annihilated by the other Legions, and barely existed before Abaddon resurrected it as the Black Legion. The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are the most completely shattered of all, but the others are still broken into warbands of loose allegiances (like independent Space Marine Chapter companies) rather than being loyal wholes, and there's very little that mentions any Night Lord, Iron Warrior or Death Guard unity at all. Even the Night Lords: if most Raptors were once Night Lords, as mentioned here and there, it means plenty of Night Lords now run around as mercenaries in other warbands.

 

Also, bear in mind fully half of the Legion special characters have almost nothing to do with their Legion anymore. Abaddon was the one to completely change his Legion and everything about it. Fabius has no interest in the Emperor's Children. Khârn was the one to actually shatter the World Eaters. Ahriman was kicked out of the Thousand Sons. And these are the examples of Chaos warlords... These are the special characters that embody the Chaos Marines.

 

I think GW's direction is fairly clear.

 

Be that as it may, it would still be nice to field say a World Eater Warband full of proper Berzerker Marines, Terminators & a lord (+1 Furious charge & fearless, etc) or an Iron Warrior Warband that can field siege engines & servo arms. Word Bearer Warband with a Dark Apostle, First Apostle & Coryphaus & cultists.... I could go on :-P I mean most of this was possible in the pervious dex.... I've seen some people writing their own versions of dexes & I'm doing the same at the moment :tu: Basically a Generic list with the current special characters & then legion specific rules, characters & units.

 

Also I know alot of the legions are splintered into warbands, but there still enough of them out there to made a codex Chaos Legions & Renegades viable. Till then house rules for the win ^_^

 

This is actually where we start to get people diverging, when they really don't need to. "Warband" isn't a swear word the way it seems to be for some folks - as if it purely means Renegades, or implies a degeneration among the Legions that they don't agree with. It's literally no more than the equivalent of a Space Marine Company. A Chaos Marine Warband is just the tabletop-level army force, like any other army out there. Some will be purely mono-Legion, natch.

 

But beyond that, the current Codex does allow Legion lists, and it does it very easily. What people seem to get confused over is that "I can't make a Legion list!" isn't true, and "I can't make a Legion list that has much chance of winning" is a little more on the nose in some cases, as is "I can make a Legion list, but it's pretty boring and lacking in variety". The rules are out of date, and didn't inspire variety when they were new: some units perform awfully compared to others in the same slots, and the competitive choices (a list of 2 Lash DPs, Plague Marines and Obliterators, f'rex) don't match any Legion's former fluff very neatly.

 

I hear you, though. It'd be killer to have a codex that allows a lot of variety with the option of fluffiness, but we're locked in a cycle of screaming that the sky is falling, and people are inventing flaws, as if the codex didn't have real ones as it is. When they do that, it makes the whole situation seem a little more childish and difficult to care about, and I say that as a Chaos player myself.