Cosmic Archmage Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 From BoLS : http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/whe...e-responds.html He also has some things to say about true los, but that's another story. Chaos Space Marines. Gav is innocent. I am guilty. I had just about started chanting my 'simple' 'simple' 'simple' mantra then and was most radical with the Chaos Space Marines. I probably would have been even more if it wasn't for Gav. Too much? I guess it's a matter of taste. It's true that we held back the Legion-specific stuff to leave freedom for potential future releases (that might or might not end up seeing the light of the day...), but we also provided a sprinkling of theming, just enough so that is it is still possible to field very god-specific armies. You see, the thinking was that the book should concentrate more on the Renegade Chapters than the Legions (look at the colour section...), and conversions and paint schemes don't have to be necessarily supported by rules. I understand how, once again to the most competitively minded players, those changes must have been unwelcome. And yes, I admit that the Lash was a bit too good... Bad us! On the other hand, I absolutely love the Chaos Daemons Codex, where I think we came up with a great, simple new army, that is difficult to use and plays in a very characterful and unique way. Go us! I wonder to what extent mr.Thorpe innocence is true, since he defended the codex on his blog a while ago. However, seeing that old rumor about a legion dex coming back is quite nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 chaos demons.... the book that destroyed WFB for a good part of an edition ...... good........oh yeah...... I like when he talks about the future releases and they did happen . the codex we were waiting for and the model range we were waiting for was codex orks . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baragash Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 chaos demons.... the book that destroyed WFB for a good part of an edition ...... good........oh yeah...... Matt Ward wrote the Fantasy Daemons book, he's talking about the 40k one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I guess Alessio can speak freely on this stuff as hes working for Mantic Games now instead of GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 It was an interesting read, and I do applaud the guy for taking the time to visit a forum to answer questions. Does GW have official "forum goers" that help relay information from GW to the population and vis-versa? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bap2703 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 It was an interesting read, and I do applaud the guy for taking the time to visit a forum to answer questions. Does GW have official "forum goers" that help relay information from GW to the population and vis-versa? I don't think thay have people dedicated to this : it would be expensive to pay somebody for this, and never forget that people on forums are not representative of the majority of their customer. On the other hand they have for sure employees that do go on forums (in their free time = for free). Whether or not it influences GW is unclear. I hope their marketing division is working in a more scientific way than just reading forums. For the other direction from where do you think most rumours come from ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 While I appreciate him making the effort to respond to criticism, his words on C:CSM just makes me even more bitter. Props to the guy for giving his reasoning, but I still hate what he has done to my beloved Legions.. My 2 Kraks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 While I appreciate him making the effort to respond to criticism, his words on C:CSM just makes me even more bitter. Props to the guy for giving his reasoning, but I still hate what he has done to my beloved Legions.. My 2 Kraks Agreed. I don't care which of the two of them is assuming the guilt this year, I want the damage repaired. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 While I appreciate him making the effort to respond to criticism, his words on C:CSM just makes me even more bitter. Props to the guy for giving his reasoning, but I still hate what he has done to my beloved Legions.. My 2 Kraks Yeah, I started reading that thinking he was going to fully fess up and acknowledge it was a mistake dumbing down the dex. I really don't buy the "most competitive players" bit. For many rules=flavor. As a certain fluff army should work a certain way and changing the look of them is not always enough. Most folks I think want flavor and good rules and don't want to have to sacrifice one for the other. Another mistake(at least for little ole me) is focusing on Renegades. I love renegades as my favorite chaos army is Red Corsairs. When it was focused on the Legions you could more easily suspend disbelief that they would have Drop pods, speeders, assault cannons etc.. but when you focus on Chaos Armies who turned within the past 2000k years, then suspending disbelief is much harder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 chaos demons.... the book that destroyed WFB for a good part of an edition ...... good........oh yeah...... Matt Ward wrote the Fantasy Daemons book, he's talking about the 40k one. both were tested and desinged by the same people at the same time with the same mind set . The chaos dex killed many armies [all the demon bombs we had] and gave us nothing in return[other dex , interest died down fast , IG+mystics killed the dex very fast etc] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 i thought it was a weak explanation. it was like he was giving a very political awnswer so as not to burn bridges with GW in case he wants back in some day .........:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Another mistake(at least for little ole me) is focusing on Renegades. I love renegades as my favorite chaos army is Red Corsairs. When it was focused on the Legions you could more easily suspend disbelief that they would have Drop pods, speeders, assault cannons etc.. but when you focus on Chaos Armies who turned within the past 2000k years, then suspending disbelief is much harder. Honestly, I don't think there's any disbelief to suspend here - the army list provided in the Codex isn't a "Renegades" list, it's a Traitor Legions list. The background and the army are simply describing two different types of forces. Given how awful the background is, this strikes me as a small mercy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2624952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I dislike the way he lumped all the critism against the codex being renegade based and not Legion based as from the competetive minded individuals. It's still out of touch with the reason why people hated the Codex and that was people like to feel identity and connection to their table top avatars. I applaud coming out and communicating with the community but it seems GW still don't quite get it (and I know he isn't GW but he is one of them at heart and mind). I would imagine if GW communicated with more of the fan base then critisms would be softer and people more understanding. Perhaps if Ward said he was deliberately exagerating Ultramarines in a White Dwarf interview to get across a point and sell the army, people wouldn't have taken it at face value and just thrown it away as the throw away comment it probably was. Then we get less grief online! :teehee: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Considering the amount of vitriol against the Codex, his explanation was worse than weak, it was pathetic. You can't answer half a dozen different arguments against the book just by saying "We focused on Renegades, not Legions." Where's the explanation for the crappy artwork? The reasoning for moving Legion squads to Troops? Changing the crazed rules for the Dreadnoughts? How is any of that linked to Renegades? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 what do you mean by pathetic ? I think he said more then enough , they wanted to cut legion rules , didnt know or didnt have the time[i would say both] how to implement at least some in to the dex so they cut everything , so this is not a legion but a renegade list . How is any of that linked to Renegades? it is not loyalist and it aint legion and it has to be something , so it renegade. Perhaps if Ward said he was deliberately exagerating Ultramarines in a White Dwarf interview to get across a point and sell the army, people wouldn't have taken it at face value and just thrown it away as the throw away comment it probably was. Then we get less grief online! why do you think he said that deliberately , he was asked about it more then once and he always anwsered the same? I doubt the a question asked on a con helps boost the sales ? When he was asked why he made WFB demons the way they were[aka edition destroying] he just said that in his opinion they should be like that , no on in WFB thought back then that it was just a hiperbole or that he was joking . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 More unnecessary and patently untrue self justifying nonsense. The codex concentrates on Renegades? Maybe in the colour section. The army list is a diluted, unfinished, ill considered Chaos Space Marine army list: Raptors, Reaper Auto Cannon and defilers all intact, Multi Meltas, Landspeeders, Apothecaries etc etc all missing. I really don't care about whose fault it is at this point or what they were trying to do: whatever the Hell it was, they failed. I think it's safe to say all those who are dissatisfied with the current codex want to hear is: when and how is the damage going to be fixed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I dislike the way he lumped all the critism against the codex being renegade based and not Legion based as from the competetive minded individuals. I agree with this comment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Indeedy, it was a way of saying "everyone who disagreed with us is just a power gamer who only cares about winning - we should therefore hate those who disagree with us." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2625994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Wolf Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 This whole "they're renegades" thing doesn't wash in any way whatsoever. If they're supposed to be relatively recent renegades, albeit with the option of some legion allies (I know this has been said before, many many times), why then don't they ha e acces to relatively recent tech, eg. Multimeltas, assault cannons, razorbacks. I'm sure the red corsairs would have all that stuff, plus apothecaries, siege shields on vindicators, attack bikes, land speeder, possibly scouts... And, if they're not renegades (and the frequent mentions of ten thousand years of battle suggesting this may just be the case) then where is the other pre-heresy gear in addition to reapers and poor-man's storm bolters we'd expect them to have, such as jet bikes. Ahhhh, for all he said he may have said nothing. There are no rule excuses for the horror that is the chaos codex. We may have been better off being neglected and forgotten since 3.5. It surely couldn't have hurt! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2626039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volchek Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I think he makes a BIG mistake saying all the complaints about the current codex is coming from "competitive" players.. Yes, there are complaints from tourney players that the codex only has 1 viable tourney list build. The issue with the cidex is much much more than that. It's hard to build a competitive list for even friendly games given the unit and character power you see in the SM, BA, and SW codicii. I'm not a hardcore tourney player because most of the tourney players that game at my regular FLGS are douchebags, and for local tourneys I'd have to play them, their cookie-cutter SW and BA lists, and deal with their arguing and bad attitudes. I don't even play them in friendly games because they bring the same tourney lists to friendly games. But I do build a competitive list for my IG, SM, and BA armies for use in friendly games. By competitive I mean a list that has a good chance of winning provided I don't get horrid dice luck. It's hard to build that kind of list with the CSM codex. I know the loyalists platers will chime in and say "yes you can build a competitive list." But the truth is Cavatore built a really crappy codex for CSM players. Him not admitting it's crap doesn't change that fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2626112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm40k Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I really don't care about whose fault it is at this point or what they were trying to do: whatever the Hell it was, they failed. I think it's safe to say all those who are dissatisfied with the current codex want to hear is: when and how is the damage going to be fixed? That, too me, is the most sensible thing that can be said about the current Chaos 'Dex, at the end of the day. It's not good, we all have issues with it, so let's just wait until we get the new one! ...in a couple of years time, I guess... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2627631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Am I the only one who took away from what he said that "GW wanted to hold back Legion specific rules to force you to buy individual Traitor Legion codexes"? I have wanted individual CSM Legion codexes for years. I hope GW does come out with them. The latest CSM codex was the worst Chaos codex I can ever remember in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2627913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 While I appreciate him making the effort to respond to criticism, his words on C:CSM just makes me even more bitter. Considering the amount of vitriol against the Codex, his explanation was worse than weak, it was pathetic. You can't answer half a dozen different arguments against the book just by saying "We focused on Renegades, not Legions." Yeah... I couldn't have said any of that any better. Indeedy, it was a way of saying "everyone who disagreed with us is just a power gamer who only cares about winning - we should therefore hate those who disagree with us." I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up that vibe. I've been lurking for weeks trying to get re-motivated with my beloved Nephilim. I lost all interest when I saw the massive updates to the loyalist marine codices via FAQ updating. I've dropped some large amounts of cash on this hobby and while I'm pleased to see a new trend emerging, I feel like an angsty Dark Angel getting riled up and actually this pissed off over a codex that to be perfectly frank, is extremely lackluster. I'm not going to rant on about dropping the hobby. I love this game. Instead, I have dropped even more money on a starting a Dark Eldar Kabal. It bothers me to see some of my favorite conversions and models to be sitting on a shelf gathering dust. I won't lower myself to using a loyalist codex as a "counts-as" army. The thought of it just grinds against me. Is it an elitist point of view? Perhaps. In the words of South Park: "Rabble rabble rabble rabble." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2627965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I'm in Iraq at the moment Nephilim, but I'm stationed out at Fort Riley. Come on down to Manhattan some time, and we can pull out our old 3.5 'dexes and have ourselves a good time! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2628957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I've still got my 3.5 codex. It's a relic from glorious days long past. Was it broken? Not really. You paid for what your army could do in points. My Chaos lord in larger games cost 275 points and was a beast. In three years of gaming with that codex, he went down only twice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219930-what-alessio-cavatore-has-to-say-about-ccsm/#findComment-2629361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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