What Alessio Cavatore has to say about C:CSM

[Decoy]

Ick. I laugh at the Chaos Dex's misfortune after 3.5, but even I'm a little put off by what this guy said. It's basically "Hey, screw you" to loyal Chaos fans everywhere. That's just not right.

[Lexington]

Indeedy, it was a way of saying "everyone who disagreed with us is just a power gamer who only cares about winning - we should therefore hate those who disagree with us."

Yup.

 

I'm pretty vocal about the new Codex being a perfectly cromulent engine for Legion army creation, but this is a ridiculous statement on Cavatore's part. Near-on all of those who want Legion lists brought back do so because they feel their army lost something that the background stipulated they ought have. Impugning their motives so flippantly is not just unnecessary*, but rude and disrespectful to a group of people who, until recently, paid the man's salary.

 

Besides, even if we are talking about people who want their armies to have more powerful in-game, how is that doing injustice to the background? I don't go in for the whole "Heresy-Era Veterans Ought Be Unstoppable Übermensches" idea that a lot of people have, but they're still Astartes. If they're inferior to the Loyalists on the tabletop (which they indisputably are), then the game's doing as bad a job of reflecting the background as it would be if the Legions were once again a power gamer's wet dream.

 

* Reserve it for people who want to do "counts as" BA/SW armies. :huh:

[Elemental_Elf]

The Chaos Marine Codex was designed in an era of streamlining everything and removing, what GW saw as, unnecessary rules. If you compare the Chaos Marine Codex to other streamlined codices, like the Dark Angels and Eldar, you can see a very similar pattern - give more options for troop choices, remove rules bloat, make things simpler, etc.

 

This design philosophy was quickly dropped due to player back lash. The new codices are much more flavorful and have superior rules, the next Chaos Marine Codex will be the same.

 

Does it hurt that we got the shaft? Of course. At least we know the future will be brighter.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

At least we know the future will be brighter.

 

Just make sure that light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train before you step in front of it. Maybe its because I'm a natural pessimist, but I'm not going to say "Its going to be better next time." When we get our new 'dex and I can sit down and read it, if its good, then I'll say "It is better this time!"

[Grey Mage]

The difference is that C:Eldar brought out new rules that would be shaped into 5th edition, well balanced units, and folded in a 2nd army book into a single list without preventing any but the most absurd of the old school lists from being fielded *30 dark reapers as troops anyone?*.

 

C:CSM didnt do that. And if it was the test-bed Im told C:DA was, Id like to see the book it produced.....

[Dammeron]

The difference is that C:Eldar brought out new rules that would be shaped into 5th edition, well balanced units, and folded in a 2nd army book into a single list without preventing any but the most absurd of the old school lists from being fielded *30 dark reapers as troops anyone?*.

 

C:CSM didnt do that. And if it was the test-bed Im told C:DA was, Id like to see the book it produced.....

 

 

Quoted for truth. The Eldar are another one of my long time armies; in point of fact, they were my very first, way, way back in the early days of Second Ed (Solitaires, Exodite Dragon Knights anyone?). I was massively pleased with the refined Eldar codex; it allows for a variety of different army builds, the creation of unique and interesting characters, remains very true to the overall ethos of the army yet is easy to use, REFINED rather than SIMPLIFIED. This is the principle difference between it and the DA and CSM codicies.

 

And as for the "power gamer" defence, I think it's fair to say I've been fairly vocal in my distaste for the current Chaos codex, but I don't nor have I ever played competitively. Tournaments, competitions etc simply don't interest me; I'm far more interested in the role playing elements of the game; the manner in which battles can become stories. This is what the current codex truly lacks in context with all of those that have gone before (yes, even the god awful 3.0 effort); flavour, ethos, substance. It is just the rawest of nuts and bolts; a skeleton without a shred of meat on its bones. As a basis for producing a fleshed out army list, it could work with some tweaking here and there, but it needs organs, muscles, fat and preferably just one or two more aesthetic features t make it viable as a hobby product. Its principle business, after all, is not to appeal to some arbirtrary notion of game balance, but to inspire people to want to collect the armies it purports to represent. Under the last codex, flawed as it was, I built and fielded no less than five seperate chaos forces. This one has made me shelve the lot of them.

 

As for the next codex, it all depends on who writes it and what new craze has swept the GW design studio. If Phil Kelly writes it, I have no doubt it'll be superb. Anyone else currently operating in the rules writing department, meh. I may be sticking with my Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar for a while longer.

[Elemental_Elf]

You're looking through rose tinted glasses if you think the Eldar codex is any different than the Chaos codex.

 

The Eldar Codex removed all Craft World specific rules and left a few token ideas behind so players could cobble together something that was kind of similar to their old Craftworld armies. GW put much more emphasis on the Troops slot and thus allowed you to take fairly specialized units as troops choices without a need for a special HQ to unlock them (like Belial for the Dark Angels). GW created a wide variety of Independent Characters. The named characters (with the exception of Eldrad and maybe Yriel) are all over-priced and under-powered, contributing little to to your army outside of fluff. The unnamed characters each have a surprising lack of options, the result of which is a lack of diversity between you and other Eldar players. The art work in the codex is poor with much of it being too dark to really enjoy. The unit entries have smaller than average fluff descriptions. The Actual fluff section of the codex is also small.

 

How is that different than the Chaos Marine Codex?

 

It isn't. The Eldar Codex feels superior because you want it to feel superior.

 

I don't want to start an argument but, the CSM codex, as is, is fine. Yes it lacks the depth of fluff that 5th edition armies have and the lack of god/legion-specific units is underwhelming and yes the lack of customization options for individual characters is low but ALL of that is to be expected! Our Codex was written in a different era, what it strove to do was different than what newer codices strive to do. The next CSM Codex is going to be amazing because all of the other 5th edition Codices are amazing. The more time devoted Chaos players sit around on internet message boards and rail about how puissant their codex is, the less fun the collective whole of Chaos players will have. Make the best of what we have and enjoy the ride. Our turn will come soon enough and then we will feel whole once more.

[the jeske]

The next CSM Codex is going to be amazing because all of the other 5th edition Codices are amazing.

[looks and nids and DE] yes of course .... that is because they are a meq army ....

 

In the end I see it this way . The old 3.5 dex had 10+ builds with drasticly different game play . Pre nerf of elites eldar had a few possible lists too[hey people still play footdar . god knows why but they do] . the gav dex killed different builds for chaos. Sure we can talk about how NM or 1ksons army is a wee bit different then the normal thing run by chaos lists[also notice how both of those need to be carried by DPs/Oblits even more then the normal chaos list] or how the AC/plas changes chaos in to a more counter list , but in the end when one compares how simiular they are in game play it is just freaking sad.

I mean a gunline , an infiltration list and a demon bomb [am not even going in to legion specific lists here] totaly different , like playing a different codex. The stuff we have now is in many ways even worse what DA got . Because even if the pre errata DW and RW sucked[i would say pure RW still does] and green wing was always a gimp sm list at least they were different . I play NM , not because I like them or the EC , I play them because they are a bit different in game play [yes and I know am cheating myself] . The post craft world nerf eldar still have more options for units ,if not builds, then we do.

Just look at the codex we have in 5th ed, people actualy [not always] have to decide what to take in elite , FA, hvy slots . Does anyone playing chaos even think about FA and elite or what to take in HQ/hvy ?

[Grey Mage]

You're looking through rose tinted glasses if you think the Eldar codex is any different than the Chaos codex.

 

The Eldar Codex removed all Craft World specific rules and left a few token ideas behind so players could cobble together something that was kind of similar to their old Craftworld armies. GW put much more emphasis on the Troops slot and thus allowed you to take fairly specialized units as troops choices without a need for a special HQ to unlock them (like Belial for the Dark Angels). GW created a wide variety of Independent Characters. The named characters (with the exception of Eldrad and maybe Yriel) are all over-priced and under-powered, contributing little to to your army outside of fluff. The unnamed characters each have a surprising lack of options, the result of which is a lack of diversity between you and other Eldar players. The art work in the codex is poor with much of it being too dark to really enjoy. The unit entries have smaller than average fluff descriptions. The Actual fluff section of the codex is also small.

 

How is that different than the Chaos Marine Codex?

 

It isn't. The Eldar Codex feels superior because you want it to feel superior.

Negatory. I can play a samm-hain jetbike list just like with C:Craftworlds. DIfference? I cant spam quite as many vypers- wich frankly is a good thing. Instead I get access to more heavy support skimmers, something that was previously sorely lacking. The 'Chief" became an "Autarch on Jetbike" and gained access to alot of wargear. Net gain.

 

Iyanden- Still can take Wraiths as Troops. No longer restricted to the number of Wraithlords=number of Wraithgaurd units wich means that the maximum number didnt chance *still 3!* but I can field several of them in a smaller force to keep my LR anti-tank up a bit higher. Again, net gain.

 

Biel-Tann- Lost the ability to take pure aspect lists- by wich I mean lost the ability to play one aspect only IF your opponent allowed you to run a phoenix lord. In return I have my aspects more spread out, wich means in the end I have more options in larger point games... usually. I call it even.

 

Ulthwé- lost out on black gaurdians. It sucks, tis true. Gaurdians have had issues since 3rd edition black lists came out though, so I cant blame them really. Its one of the few things I feel should be fixed in the next codex cycle.

 

Alaitoc- Can now take their Pathfinders as troops instead of elites. Lost no options whatsoever on their units. Did lose ambush... but the rangers rules got boosted, as did pinning in 5th edition, so I dont think they need it whatsoever.

 

Phoenix Lords- Put them toe to toe with any but the most aggressively priced SM characters, such as lysander, and Ill give them even odds. Its sad that they in general lack invulnerable saves, but frankly they have awesome stats, solid abilities, and arent significantly overcosted.

 

C:Eldar wasnt the leap forward alot of codexs get but you know, its power level was still strong for a 4rth edition book... and still quite competitive- with multiple lists and builds- in 5th edition. Hell, a few months back I took a 20 player tournament at 1500pts with a primarily footslogging eldar list. Try doing that wich C:CSM... youll need more guts than I have to attempt it.

 

 

I don't want to start an argument but, the CSM codex, as is, is fine. Yes it lacks the depth of fluff that 5th edition armies have and the lack of god/legion-specific units is underwhelming and yes the lack of customization options for individual characters is low but ALL of that is to be expected! Our Codex was written in a different era, what it strove to do was different than what newer codices strive to do. The next CSM Codex is going to be amazing because all of the other 5th edition Codices are amazing. The more time devoted Chaos players sit around on internet message boards and rail about how puissant their codex is, the less fun the collective whole of Chaos players will have. Make the best of what we have and enjoy the ride. Our turn will come soon enough and then we will feel whole once more.

So its good.... except it lacks any flavor. Congratulations, thats the complaint. And a completely understandable one at that.

 

I admit- more time playing, less time spent whining on message boards. Still, that doesnt mean that what Mr. Cavatore said about C:CSM isnt yet another statement of 'huh, well dont be such a powergamer' wich is insulting to me because of the number of friends Ive seen completely heartbroken about the dross that went into the current book. Several of them had atleast 4 chaos armies- my buddy john had 9, each with its own distinct units and vehicles. ~100,000 points of chaos that hasnt seen the light of day in almost two years because he was tired of pulling out models and then getting a sinking feeling about how pointless it was to have some in purple and some in red if no one else was going to care about it.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

~100,000 points of chaos that hasnt seen the light of day in almost two years because he was tired of pulling out models and then getting a sinking feeling about how pointless it was to have some in purple and some in red if no one else was going to care about it.

 

Just changed my quote. :)

[Yogi]

Alessio is actually doing you a favor..

 

You see chaos marines are cynical hate filled creatures because you know, they were betrayed.

 

Nowadays most 3.5 players feel the same way.

 

 

 

 

His pointless justification is pointless. It makes no sense either its like making a Dark Angel codex and focusing on the successors. Why bother? Barely anyone cares about them.

 

Someone should hire Dammeron who's suggestions in the other thread are ace.

[TheGerman]

I'm raging kinda hard now Ive only been playing for about a year but I heard from gw employees and on forums what chaos marines used to be able to do and how they used to have a S#$T ton of customizable options for the army. I look at this codex and feel somewhat down knowing the only type of competitive list is by being somewhat cheezy :/

[Hellios]

Negatory. I can play a samm-hain jetbike list just like with C:Craftworlds. DIfference? I cant spam quite as many vypers- wich frankly is a good thing. Instead I get access to more heavy support skimmers, something that was previously sorely lacking. The 'Chief" became an "Autarch on Jetbike" and gained access to alot of wargear. Net gain.

 

Iyanden- Still can take Wraiths as Troops. No longer restricted to the number of Wraithlords=number of Wraithgaurd units wich means that the maximum number didnt chance *still 3!* but I can field several of them in a smaller force to keep my LR anti-tank up a bit higher. Again, net gain.

 

Biel-Tann- Lost the ability to take pure aspect lists- by wich I mean lost the ability to play one aspect only IF your opponent allowed you to run a phoenix lord. In return I have my aspects more spread out, wich means in the end I have more options in larger point games... usually. I call it even.

 

Ulthwé- lost out on black gaurdians. It sucks, tis true. Gaurdians have had issues since 3rd edition black lists came out though, so I cant blame them really. Its one of the few things I feel should be fixed in the next codex cycle.

 

Alaitoc- Can now take their Pathfinders as troops instead of elites. Lost no options whatsoever on their units. Did lose ambush... but the rangers rules got boosted, as did pinning in 5th edition, so I dont think they need it whatsoever.

 

Phoenix Lords- Put them toe to toe with any but the most aggressively priced SM characters, such as lysander, and Ill give them even odds. Its sad that they in general lack invulnerable saves, but frankly they have awesome stats, solid abilities, and arent significantly overcosted.

 

C:Eldar wasnt the leap forward alot of codexs get but you know, its power level was still strong for a 4rth edition book... and still quite competitive- with multiple lists and builds- in 5th edition. Hell, a few months back I took a 20 player tournament at 1500pts with a primarily footslogging eldar list. Try doing that wich C:CSM... youll need more guts than I have to attempt it.

 

 

Eldar being my main army I also agree Eldar were not hit so hard however it wasn't all roses. I know a guy with 60 Wraithguard and a good number of Wraithlords... can you guess his Craftworld? Anyway the biggest issue for him is that he has to take 10 man units to make them troops meaning that if he wants to do his old all seers, wraiths and vehicles lists he will have a hard time as while a big unit of wraithguard has it uses the short range weapons mean that transports are very nice... and now they are no longer troops... Something like a farseer upgrade to change this would be welcome.

 

Ulthwé (my Craftworld) is the other chapter that was hit 'hard' or at least compared to the others... although a lot of this has to do with the fact we had two lists. Bog standard Ulthwé force and the Ulthwé strike force... So super-seer councils (at least we can take baby seer councils now... but no augment!), black guardians (I have been known to use dire avengers count as... eeek but as I used guardians for anti-tank the loss in BS has hurt me), spear of khaine (much like the court of the young king) and webway portals.

 

Oh the other thing I miss and not related to the minidexs is Nadhu (correct spelling?), I admit I didn't seem him used very often but I guess part of that was due to having no model... although I've seen some very cool conversions...

 

But over all even as an Eldar play I have to say Chaos came out of it worse.

[Balthamal]

If Phil Kelly writes it, I have no doubt it'll be superb. Anyone else currently operating in the rules writing department, meh. I may be sticking with my Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar for a while longer.

 

That could probably sum up most of the feeling given Phil's previous works (Codex Dark Elder is superlative, not quite worth the 12 or so year wait but nothing was going to be worth that).

 

After finishing my Blood Angels I was very tempted to delve into the pool of corruption that is C:CSM (Alpha Legion or Night Lords to be precise) but looking between 4.0 and my tatty 3.5, I can honestly say the Emperor will emerge from the Golden Throne and shake my hand before I go anywhere near any army chosen from that

 

Be interesting to see who wins the tug of war between Orks and CSM for the 1st new dex in 2012, since Grey knights are confirmed for April and Tau being the last army still operating on a 3.0 codex

[Cosmic Archmage]

Be interesting to see who wins the tug of war between Orks and CSM for the 1st new dex in 2012, since Grey knights are confirmed for April and Tau being the last army still operating on a 3.0 codex

 

That is, if you ignore both Necrons and Witchhunters. Plus, Tau are a 4th ed dex.

 

If you look at it from a certain point of view, 5th edition codex release have been : SM, IG, SW, Nids, BA, DE, GK.

 

So that a meq dex for every non MEQ. In this optic, CSMs might not be so far away, even considering Templars and DA, I would be surprised to see those two get a codex update before Chaos.

 

Call me an optimistic, but that's how I see things anyway.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If you look at it from a certain point of view, 5th edition codex release have been : SM, IG, SW, Nids, BA, DE, GK.

 

And Orks.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Well, going backward from C:SM (Wich is the first actual 5th ed codex), theres the Daemon's Codex, then you've got Orks.

[TheGerman]

Don't test cosmics knowledge he has the mark of tzeentch :P

[Smurfalypse]

Well, going backward from C:SM (Wich is the first actual 5th ed codex), theres the Daemon's Codex, then you've got Orks.

 

It actually says in the Ork codex that it was built for the next edition so some things would not work correctly until it came out. Meaning it was specifically built for 5th.

[the jeske]

and orks dex was ready before chaos sm dex was done and sm were done at the same time as demons and demons just like orks had rules that didnt even work in 5th ed.

[Captain Idaho]

Well, going backward from C:SM (Wich is the first actual 5th ed codex), theres the Daemon's Codex, then you've got Orks.

 

It actually says in the Ork codex that it was built for the next edition so some things would not work correctly until it came out. Meaning it was specifically built for 5th.

 

Even if made with 5th in mind, the layout and detail in the 5th edition Codex books is clearly different.

 

As an example, look how many special characters are in each book since Codex Space Marines came out...

[the jeske]

As an example, look how many special characters are in each book since Codex Space Marines came out...

orks were ready before chaos and they have squad upgrades characters , new HQs , FoC changing [mek mking dreads troops , warboss making nobz troops etc] . Demons were tested at the same time as chaos space marines and they have upgrade characters too .

Chaos dex was a hastly done copy pasta , they couldnt add any new IC or squad upgrades because A there were no models planed for those [and it takes money and time to make those] B they didnt have time /didnt want to test new stuff it was safer to cut options then make a real dex . the ork dex had new stuff [duh considering the time] , the demons had new fluff too [duh again I know new dex] , but SM had their fluff re made too with the whole ultramarine thing . If they actualy planed a 4th ed renegade dex then where is the fluff for them ? the one story about corsairs [that also doesnt make sense , because SW have a smell based pack mentality there is no way loyalist sw wouldnt notice some of their "friends" are thinking about going traitor] and the two or three pages of "different red and totaly not WB" and "different blue and totaly not NL" chaos space marines ?

 

the problem from a desing point of view is that this is neither a 4th ed dex , nor a 5th ed dex . Even if one thinks about DA as just guidlines for 5th ed [and I may agree on it here] , then in the DA dex there are FoC changing specials and there are more then one upgrade for HQs and while green wind in deed did sucks when compared to both the 4th and 5th sm dex , the DA dex still gave birth to 3 different armies [of which now one after I think 4 years is realy viable ].

 

But of course no of the writers at GW will ever say that GW isnt realy interested in rules or the game play , that their mind is set is on selling models [been like that since for Citadel times] , that is why FAQ and precise rules are not their thing, because it would lower the sales of some stuff , the stuff they desinged bad or didnt test and with the mind set "just as your m8 if he lets you play with it " everything is possible . Problem is while maybe it is possible to them it aint possible to a lot of gamers around the world .