Wolves or Angels?

[Wadey13]

Yeah just wondering if anyone has much experience with the Wolves and Blood Angels codexes? I want to get one of them to try and slowly start building a new SM army, and I want to get a codex for one of these two heroic chapters! Been inspired by reading Prospero Burns, I really want to capture the feel of a Chapter that is "well'ard" and a cut above the rest, but I don't really want to for gaming purposes...I don't really want to use things just because they're really powerful, I want classic things like the Death Company and to have really themed armies.

 

So anyway, the reason I'm asking is because the codexes are so expensive, I don't want to spend nearly 20 quid on a book then wish i'd bought the other one! So can anyone tell me the following i guess:

1. How good the background section is (background is why I play 40K)!

2. How much fun to make themed lists they are (I dont want to make powergaming lists)

3. Do the books really capture the feel of these two Chapters (I've been reading and playing 40K for donkey's years!!)

 

Your help will be much appreciated :)

 

As an addendum, I think I could use Codex Space Wolves for a DIY chapter I wanted to do years ago, where they pretty 'ard even as for as Space Mrines go. If anyone could help me by letting me know how useful the book would be in that respect that would be great too! Thanks a lot!

[Father Mapple]

As a Blood Angels player, I say play Blood Angels. They have theme in droves, have been supported as long as any other First Founding chapter (excepting, say, Ultramarines) and love the baroque style of gilding and decoration they have. There are black, white, red, yellow, and mixtures of styles to paint them just in the Codex, and lots of chances for painting themes since you have a range of models dating back to 2nd edition through the more current and incredibly dynamic Death Company or Space Hulk miniatures (if you can get your hands on them).

 

As far as the Codex itself goes, there's tons of information coming out of the Codex that describes chapter history, past wars, etc. I like the little "stories" in the entries, such as how the Sanguinary Guard was started, or Captain Tycho's slow slide into <<<<spoiler censored>>>>, who's been in multiple editions, and who is now <<<<spoiler censored>>>>. There's not a Horus Heresy book for the Blood Angels yet, but James Swallow let spill that one is coming. The Blood Angels do the "tortured hero" or "Byronic hero" better than most other chapters.

 

They have a secret, like the Dark Angels; their zealots, like the Templars; insano-barbarians, like the Wolves; and their Codex-thumpers, like the Ultramarines; but they look better than the rest doing it, in my own opinion.

[Hfran Morkai]

The problem here is it's all down to you, we can only tell you what we have discovered and hope we guide you into finding the chapter you like.

 

The background of the Space Wolves is fantastically decorated (especially if you can get the old codeci) with tales of heroism and comradeship. Our books often have little recollections from tales by the skalds which adds wonderfully to the feel of the Wolves. These are warriors who don't just get the job done, they enjoy and relish their task of destroying the enemies of mankind and will charge into battle howling furious chants. The Space Wolves are also the ones who will properly celebrate a military victory with a grand feast and remember those whose threads were cut upon the field of battle. We also have warriors out for vengeance for their lost packmates, determined to slay all he can.

 

 

Game wise the Wolves have a nice feel to them too. They are so versatile in creating working forces to achieve objectives. I often think it feels like I am commanding a giant wolf pack, with my runners to harry the foe and heavy hitters to make the kills. You can easily go for an army based around mechanised assaults, death from the skies, a horde of infantry, a task force of sneaky warriors or the chapter's heaviest hitters. They all seem to work fairly well depending on how you use them (I run a predominantly footslogging Heresy force). You also have the opportunity to create some really unique characters through the sagas option, making them feel more alive.

 

With regards to the novels, the majority of them are fantastic, with one or two being slightly less awesome. But they definitely capture the feel of the Space Wolves, with the Ragnar series being the more amusing side and Prospero Burns being much more serious. If you ever get the chance to pick up the old codex books though do it, even if you don't collect them, as you say you are mainly in the hobby for the background.

 

Finally, I feel both chapters are a good choice, they both have a lot of history and interesting playstyles, I just hope you find the right one for you.

[Bulweih]

My first thought was: If you have to ask, go BA. But that would come off too rude I guess and I might be slightly biased ^_^.

I would suggest you hop into a LGS for reading/skipping trough both codices, because brother Mikal had it right, it's all down to you.

It's a tough choice, hope you find what you are looking for.

[Decoy]

He posted this in the Blood Angels forum already, Mapple, so get ye to there and get yer sparkle on. :P

 

Wadey, this might be a right bit long, so bear with me, aye? There's always a method to my madness. EEEEHEHEHEHE!

 

1. How good the background section is (background is why I play 40K)!

 

The Wolves, since the dawn of their individuality as an army, have always been incredibly "backgroundful" (henceforth referred to as fluffy.) Our fluff is filled with individual characters in tales of heroics, as all good Space Marine armies have. What makes our boys and our stories different, however, is that these stories aren't of "IC-status". Our tales of heroism are almost exclusively about our boys in the trenches, the Space Wolves at large, not the Large Space Wolves.

 

Take, for instance, the Assault on the Fang by Tzeench forces after they had lured the main body of the Wolves away. Defended only by Dreadnoughts and Fang auxiliaries, the story of the Defense of the Fang has one large, looming figure: Bjorn the Fell-Handed. Sure, he's just another "larger than life" character, but by and large, the main story of the battle is best held in comparison against other forces. When the Ultramarine homeworld came under assault from the Tyranid menace, they lost their entire first company. The Dark Angels destroyed their own homeworld for their own... weird... reasons. The Wolves? We defended our world, successfully, with not the high elite of our Chapter but with the "few and the proud".

 

Every Wolf has the chance to rise to be something great. There are also those ill-fated who fall to the curse of the Wulfen, or struggle with it daily. Furthermore, this fluff is -directly correlated- to the potential builds for Space Wolves. Each Great Company is somehow representative of a certain aspect of Wolfiness. Do you favor Wulfen-armies? Bran Redmaw's Great Company is a good starting point. All-Terminators? The Great Wolf's Company can take care of that for you. This allows for Spearhead-style armies, theme armies of flamers, meltas, Bloodclaws, Skyclaws and Swiftclaws, or even the somewhat elusive "Elite Power Armor" Wolf Guard, who rack in at 18 points and are by far the cheapest "Elite" for their base cost. It's only when you start giving them all upgrades that they get expensive. However, in a fluff-based army, who cares? These are the best of the best, they should be able to disassemble everything that hits them! In my mind, the fluff of the Space Wolves is singlehandedly the -best- represented by any Codex rules-set out there.

 

 

2. How much fun to make themed lists they are (I dont want to make powergaming lists)

 

I have a list with nothing but about 50-60 Flamers/Heavy Flamers in Razorbacks, with flex-room for Redeemers, to signify a particular Great Company. Another, with only a few changes model-wise, allows that same army to become a different Great Company, based around plasma. Yet another few model changes allows for all-infantry Wulfen-Companies. Finally, the dropping of a few troops allows me to use the ever-feared Logan's Heroes list, where Terminators are kings and are supported by legions of power-armored Wolves, as per Logan's Great Company. Themed lists are easy as pie as Wolves, and more often than not, there is a LOT of interchangeability when it comes to models. A few magnetized models can make all the difference between Plasma, Flamer, Melta, Mech, or Infantry-based lists. Not only are the Wolves fairly cheap to buy and assemble, but if you take pride in your assembly (and have a fair hand with plastic-craft), you can make upwards of seven to eight different types of builds with only a bit more investment than if you'd bought three completely different armies.

 

 

3. Do the books really capture the feel of these two Chapters (I've been reading and playing 40K for donkey's years!!)

 

Yes and no. I can't say I've read -all- the books but I have read a certain number of them. I enjoyed every one of them, and honestly, I'd peg the Wolf books as some of the best-written of all the Black Library material. The Blood Angels books are laughable, portraying them as the type of marine who, when faced with the situation between killing Chaos or drinking blood, they'd... lie down and cry. (Hyperbole, much?) The BA books are widely considered some of the worst hands down, though some of the later novels have shown some improvement. That one is a judgment call more than anything else. In terms of best capturing the feel, in the Wolf books, there is copious ale-swigging, Chaos-slaughtering, and general Wolfiness brimming on every page. Little more needs be said.

 

4.) What forum is the absolute best and most fun to hang out in?

 

The Fang. Enough said.

 

 

As it was said a post above, it's a common answer in the Fang: "If you have to ask, go to the other army." This is a fairly accurate feel of the Wolves, in the Codex, in the Fluff, and in the players. ^_^

 

I hope this at least somewhat assists you in your choice, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask and I or any of my Wolfbrothers will aid you to the best of our abilities.

[dragon950]

Depends if you want to go with an army that is balanced but has some weird units in it. Or an army where your opponet has their eyes poping out say :). There are also other space marine armies out there also, just because they haven't come out very recent dosen't mean they aren't good.

[Ranwulf]

I will say this, as a player of SW and BA:

 

Go with BOTH.

 

Why?

 

Well, they are Fluff wise, awesome armies, with heroic powerful characters that fight for the people of the Imperium and the Emperor, rather than just the Emperor, or just the people.

 

Space Wolves are the "Big Guys", the "Boisterous Bruiser" of the Space Marines. They LIKE fighting, they enjoy doing that and don't do it just because someone told them to do so. While they are not as furious in close combat than the Blood Angels, they use their cunning and instinct to win. They have a "practical intelligence", as I like to call it, one that they are not mathematically making their strategy, but rather by "knowing" how to do that.

 

They are rebellious, not accepting changing their ways for another, or letting someone tells them what's right. Heck, even tough inside the Vila Fenrika they obey their superiors, these know to respect someone's decision to be a Lone Wolf.

 

The Blood Angels are, in my opinion, the BEST close combatants of the Space Marines. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are better than the Space Wolves(after all, the SW are Close Quarters warriors), but rather that they are superior in Close Combat, specially during an assault. The Blood Angels are refined, noble and humble. Many call them the "pretty boys" of the Space Marines, which I think, if not used in a demeaned tone, I belive it is right, they SEEK constantly perfection. As a way to compensate for the Flaw, the Scions of Sanguinius seek perfection in all thing, you can see that in their armor, weapons, etc...

 

They are different from other Space Marines, they have their proud, sure, but they are also humble. Because of the Flaw, they KNOW they are NOT perfect, they are NOT noble by itself, no, they believe, that those things are not "natural" for a Angel of Death, rather it's somenthing you have to seek and earn. As such, I read many times people calling them "whinies", "crybabies", well, don't be fooled by them. While it is true that they are defined because of the Flaw, it is how they are defined what it matters, instead of seeking death, in a last stand like many others Space Marines, they rather fight and be the protectors of the Imperium like Sanguinius desired.

 

2)Now, after fluff explanation, I will go with theme armies.

 

Well, I tried both Loganwing and Death Company lists, and to tell you the truth, I liked more Death Company. But that's because I have A LOT of fun assaulting with them, and I NEED to re-roll dices, since I have a weird luck.

 

3)Uh, books? You mean the Black Library ones right? Well, generally, I think Red Fury onwards capture part of the Blood Angels form, but to tell you the truth, the writers ALWAY have different views of the Space Marines, so it's rather difficult to measure how much close they are to the army in itself. This one I left pretty much to interpretation.

 

Hope it helped.

 

Ran

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, if you can afford to do both do so, or if you can build them up small do that.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The advantage of Blood Angels is that at heart they are a Codex army with a few twists. That means with a few more models and a bit of imagination, you can play them in a variety of ways. My own Codex army will be able to be fielded as Codex Marines, biker list, assault company (Blood Angels) or first company (Deathwing) or first and eighth (Doublewing).

Space Wolves are Space Wolves. They don't really interchange with Codex Marines. Our units are different, our organisation different, almost everything is different.

I love the Angels fluff, also the Dark Angels fluff, and even the Ultramarines fluff. But IMNSHO Space Wolves are the

(probably all the pelts).

[Wadey13]

I have decided!! Blood Angels it is, Ranwulf said it for me, go with both, so I will but for different reasons...

 

Blood Angels, I love the style of the play the idea of swooping in and saving everyone and being ferocious in assault, which Space Wolves are too, BUT, when I think "why did I start playing 40K?" I remember the Angels Of Death codex with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels in, I was so inspired by the mysteries and intrigue of both Chapters, and I love the humble self depricating nature of the Blood Angels, they're so...tragic! I want to see them swooping in to save the souls of some poor Imperial Gaurdsmen :P

 

Wolves, I love their brotherhood and love of a good fight, they remind me of Orks a little bit! But I wont be collecting them as Space Wolves (yet, one day I'll be rich and I will!), for now I'll be using them as Red Dragons, a chapter that I wrote up years ago. They're similar to Space Wolves in their nature and the way they like to fight, but not in organisation. So I'll just use the Codex in a more "Codex" fashion as Roboute Guilliman would put it, and ignore the weirder elements like Thunderwolf Cavalry, which tbh I probably wouldn't like to use in a Space Wolves army anyway!

 

Thanks for the help in my soul searching brothers!

[Max_Dammit]

Well be off than pretty boy, but be sure to come by for some beer. :cuss

[Schertenleib]

That has got to be one of the longest posts I've ever seen from Decoy. Didn't know he could write so well!

 

Well said Brother! Have an ale!

[Emperor's Scourge]

Blood Angels.

[Lord Ragnarok]

That has got to be one of the longest posts I've ever seen from Decoy. Didn't know he could write so well!

 

Well said Brother! Have an ale!

 

Actually, if I remember correctly, he has a major in English. :)

[Decoy]

BA in English, thankye, as well as History, with minors in Broadcasting Communications and Business Administration. (History dual focus in American History/Military tactics and strategies of the Imperial Era.)

 

Go search for a post from... I don't know... Late 2008 of mine, Schertenleib. I think the title of the thread is "Why did you pick Space Wolves?". I kind of went off the handle on a pages-long diatrabe that almost got me some sort of banned. ;) It should still be kicking around.

 

Now... With that said...

 

DECOY SMASH! ALSO DRINK! UG! (apparently, I have appearances to keep up.)

[Ranwulf]

Well be off than pretty boy, but be sure to come by for some beer. :P

 

Nothing stops you from being a hairy, pretty boy ale drinker viking.

 

Ran

[dragon950]

BAs aren't better in close combat than anyone else, it's just that they are better shock troopers than anyone else. They are almost like the space marine version of orcs. The longer combat is drawn out, the more they become like every other space marine.

 

Wolves used to be the best at close combat since they ignored being outnumbered, which by 5th edition rules means that every unit had stubborn. Too bad they no longer have that rule.

[Ranwulf]

BAs aren't better in close combat than anyone else, it's just that they are better shock troopers than anyone else. They are almost like the space marine version of orcs. The longer combat is drawn out, the more they become like every other space marine.

 

I disagree. Feel No pain makes Blood Angels FAR more harder to defeat in CC than a regular marine.

 

By the way, the Marine versions of Orcs are the Space Wolves. They are the ones that have a LARGE number of attacks, and a incredible number of shots.

 

Blood Angels use Str, Init and Saves with Feel no Pain to win, not a large pool of attacks. Orcs goes most of the time Init 3, Str 4 and Saves of 6+, when they charge, the difference is the NUMBER of attacks.

 

Ran

[Grey Mage]

BA in English, thankye, as well as History, with minors in Broadcasting Communications and Business Administration. (History dual focus in American History/Military tactics and strategies of the Imperial Era.)

 

Go search for a post from... I don't know... Late 2008 of mine, Schertenleib. I think the title of the thread is "Why did you pick Space Wolves?". I kind of went off the handle on a pages-long diatrabe that almost got me some sort of banned. :P It should still be kicking around.

 

Now... With that said...

 

DECOY SMASH! ALSO DRINK! UG! (apparently, I have appearances to keep up.)

 

I remember enjoying this summary personally:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=178070&hl=

 

Youve always been a favorite, you overly lucky pain in the arse ;)

[dragon950]

BAs aren't better in close combat than anyone else, it's just that they are better shock troopers than anyone else. They are almost like the space marine version of orcs. The longer combat is drawn out, the more they become like every other space marine.

 

I disagree. Feel No pain makes Blood Angels FAR more harder to defeat in CC than a regular marine.

 

By the way, the Marine versions of Orcs are the Space Wolves. They are the ones that have a LARGE number of attacks, and a incredible number of shots.

 

Blood Angels use Str, Init and Saves with Feel no Pain to win, not a large pool of attacks. Orcs goes most of the time Init 3, Str 4 and Saves of 6+, when they charge, the difference is the NUMBER of attacks.

 

Ran

 

I actually mean if we were to compare a single marine to a single marine. With the ability to have tons of feel no pain they are great in combat unless they come across a squad with power weapons.

 

It's true that both orcs and space wolves have lots of attacks, but orcs are also the best on the charge. BAs are also great when they charge, but during later rounds of combat they revert back to normal. If that makes sense to anyone else.

[Wysten]

At the same time though, you would not expect a normal marine to go head to head with an elite rock and win. A single power weapon, typical in marine squads is evened out by the fact they can take them too (two if the Sang Priest is equipped) and can strike first on the charge, and are likely to get the charge due to Jetpacks.

 

Encounter a squad full of power weapons and typically the best responce is to avoid it, throw a simlarly specialised squad at it, shoot it or torrent it. Determining a one on one matchup is good for determining toughness, but the ability to set up the odds in ones favour is also the ability a commander must wield.

 

I don't see Grey Hunters as Tacticals, rather as assualt marines with bolters, and for attacking on the Charge. BA is far more mobile with mass jetpacks and are likely to pick their fights unless against a much quicker foe, like Dark Eldar while Grey Hunters like being able to get out of Rhinos on the move and drop a load of bolter rounds along with the specials in their face and challange them to change. Or to have small units lead by fine wolf guard. Two different evolutions of the same unit that make them both different, but good at what they do.

[TrentL]

I have collected both enjoy both from a fluff stand point they both have strong fluff and strong theme's and stunning models.

 

From a novel stand point, the Blood Angels are made to seem very self serving and almost pety, not the noble warriors of Baal I think of them as. Sure they have Death Company but honestly ... thats why I chose them :)

 

The other thing is unless your using a "named" blood angel leader, their HQ support choices are rather weak I find.

 

I really liked the novels for Space Wolves, they are nobel heroes who like to fight drink and fight some more, brotherhood is very important to them, pack mentality and all. These are how the space marine's books should be (Maybe take out the drinking for BA and add in Art, Music etc, as its often said that the Blood Angels are known for their love of Art and beautiful things(I mean really these two chapters are based on Vampires and Werewolves)

 

Anyway the HQ choices for SPace Wolves can be made to be devastating... you can make your own Great Company that got lost some time in the past, your own wolf lord and totally feel like you can compete, no "Count as" I love that... I love strong Hero characters and in fact thats what drew me to Space Wolves in the first place!

 

I tend to see the Wolves as being much more forgiving than BA, if I put my BA in the wrong spot or misjudge a distance and get charged.. I could be in a world of hurt, where the wolves don't care if you charge them or they charge you ... (Minus the one HQ that gives FC he obviously cares :( )

 

On top of that I think the wolves have one of the best Troop Choices in the game (Grey Hunters) and their Heavy Support (Long Fangs) are very strong choice as well... funny I would think that the Wolves would be a "Fighty" army but I tend to see them more as a shooty army, forcing the opponent to try and bust through their rapid firing 3+ str4 shots, or charge in where the wolves are just as happy to play. The BA on the other hand... they want to get in your face as fast as humanly(Or non-humanly) Possible in order to lay a beat down

[Wysten]

To quickly cut in, Blood Angels Labirans tend to be a top choice. Blood Lance is downright deadly to tanks and the sheild is useful when it is needed. While they are not superiour to Rune Priests, they definately forfill a entirely different nickle in badarse.

[Decoy]

I remember enjoying this summary personally:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=178070&hl=

 

Youve always been a favorite, you overly lucky pain in the arse ;)

 

Oh yeah! I completely forgot about that. "The Day the Forums of the Internet Stood Still", when there wasn't a dissenting voice in a three-page thread. Not my finest diatribe (if I remember, I was quite drunk that day), but definitely the best-received. And damn you, GM, you're going to get a two and a half year old thread Necro'd. There were seven people reading that beast. o.O

 

I'm only the favorite because I'm insane, GM. Everyone loves insane people! RIGHT?!

[Niiai]

If you can't chose between BA and SW then you should go for the one you think is moast funn to paint. If you still can't decide paint them in a different colours and then switch between them.