What to do when you run up against a hard counter

[Simpsonia]

So I'm curious as to what people do when they run up against a hard counter. By that I mean an army or list that you are totally mismatched against.

 

For example, after a 4 year hiatus from the hobby, I recently joined a 40k league. They 1500 point games, with an approximately 1000 point core that is set at the start, with the leftovers points to be free to make up auxiliary prior to each match. My core is entirely a DoA list consisting of a Librarian, 2 Priests, 2 2x MG, Pfist RAS's, and a 2xFlamer, LC RAS squad. Shortly I will be playing a match against a Dark Eldar Duke Sliscus list chock full of trueborn and warriors in Venoms with night shields, and a Ravager thrown in. My typical DoA list will have a lot of trouble against the vehicle spam due to the nightshields, flickerfields, and sheer number of skimmers, combined with the large amount of poisoned shots they can pump out since DoA anti-mech comes from quality of fire (melta) over quantity, my AV firepower could easily be saved away. My intended strategy is to load up my auxiliary with outflanking Baals, and a Typhoon speeder, everything coming in from reserve. Hopefully my Baals and the Typhoon can come in and pop the Venoms open for my 3 RAS's.

 

That's just my example of what I plan to do against a hard counter, I could be totally off. Has anyone else run into similar situations and have advice?

[Sanguinarian]

DoA lists against DE need lots of cover and/or some kind of mechanized support. Two outflanking Baals, two Dakka Predators and 2 Furioso Dreads (w/drop pods) would help tremendously. I prefer LRs with PotMS personally (obviously not DoA) so I can knock 2 of their boats out of the sky per round of shooting. Speeders and Bikes would only work if you have lots of cover, otherwise DE darklances will eat them up when they show themselves. Ultimately, the best way to fight the enemy is to know the enemy. What style of army does he have trouble with? Ask around at your LGS.

[SamaNagol]

Assault Cannon. Lots of them. And a Baal with Flamestorm.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I think our codex is a little tough for All-comers lists; but that said, that DE list you will be facing doesn't necessarily seem like a bad match for BA DoA to me. I'd be very worried if you were facing Incubi and Grotesques but otherwise we can handle most DE stuff.

[Mezkh]

I wouldn't say that's a hard counter to be honest. Now that the Ravager can't take 'Plasma Cannons' it's a lot less scary to DOA.

 

The thing with that army is it won't like fighting you either. You don't have any MCs, you don't have any vehicles to use lances on and your infantry are many, fast, and all have effective 2+ saves against the splinter fire. There's only so much space for the Venoms to kite around in, and in any sort of objective game you're holding all the cards. As the Chaplain said I'd be more worried about facing the DE units that can actually beat down Assault squads in close combat over vehicle spam and splinter fire.

 

To be honest if you wanted to be a 'jerk' with your auxilary I would take 3 Devastator squads with 4 missle Launchers each, start everything on the board, put the Devs in cover with FNP and blow up stuff up.

 

When I'm fighting hard counter armies, I tend to play to the mission and a patient game and hope the opponent does something stupid to even the odds between the armies. And you never know Dice can do weird things.

 

Your opponent can make mistakes either from inexperience, impatience, and/or if you complicate the engagement on the table with enough options that they have a hard time choosing the best plays.

[Father Mapple]

I haven't seen Venoms, but are they like the Eldar ones, with AV10 and open topped, like most of the rest of the Dark Eldar stuff?

 

2 words to counter those: bolt pistols. Don't forget your pistols. Glance the open topped stuff to death. I play against an old school Dark Eldar player, and I can't tell you how many times I've popped a transport/AV10 vehicle with STR 4 bolt pistols and a -1 on the results chart. If that doesn't work, then assault them with Furious charge from the priests. 30x STR 5 attacks means you just need 5 to glance and 6 to penetrate. I do it all the time. If it explodes, then the guys inside have to roll to see if they're pinned, will probably lose a couple since they only have 4+ or 5+ saves, and you will be well within the "non-consolidate" range if they fail their tests. You'll be fine with 3+ armor and 4+ Feel No Pain to stop the explosion results.

 

Ravagers can be glanced to death as well since they're open topped, even moving 12" every turn (which they should). Either Krak grenades with 10x STR 6 attacks that need to hit on 6s (1.4 hits on average) and then a 4+ to glance, 5+ to penetrate with that 1.4 hits (unreliable). Or, again, two words: Furious Charge. In assault, 30x STR 5 attacks that need to hit on 6s (5 hits on average, which is more than possible) and 6s to glance (82% chance of happening).

 

But this is all statistics, which has nothing to do with real dice. My Win-Loss ratio is statistical proof enough of that.

[Zealadin]

As someone said, Dev squads with missiles, they are the best all round choice for a DoA army anyway.

Adding mech vs DE is also rediculous...... a few tanks aren't going to phase them AT ALL. You give them the perfect target to shoot lances at.

FNP is a huge boon for you as well.

 

Venoms can only hold what 5-6 guys, and only take their poisoned splinter canons, which you literally laugh at with FNP. It takes something like 110+ shots to kill a squad of space marines, and thats with NO FNP!

 

Basically do the opposite of what Sanguinarian said and you'll be fine since I honestly can't see where he is getting his information about DE from, unless he plays really bad people who totally misuse the codex.

 

Main thing to watch: don't let your priests get killed in close combat. Also be careful of wyches, they have a 4+ invuln in CC that can be nasty. Shoot them to death, or flamer them.

[Wysten]

Indeed, Missle Devs are the best way to deal with Dark Eldar transport. Resistant, long ranged even with a 6 inch loss of range and the potencial to have feel no pain. Making them tough to kill with anything short of a strenght 8 hit or a AP2 weapon. Sanguard may also be nice if you can find room for single squad, as once their transports go down, you want them to die and you also want to present another hard target to really put strain on their targetting priority. Though that meanst giving up 60 points worth of missles and it may be a much preferable option to take 2 Landspeeders with Mult-Melta and Heavy flamer, though I am unsure whether they have a price increase.

 

That being said, be careful, Dark Eldar can quite easily get across 2/3's of the board in one turn. This is one match up where you want to be able to get into assualt quickly and overwhem them in melee combat and that you will be relying on your armour and feel no pain to pull through as they will be more mobile then you, at least until you take care of the transports. Other then that, just try not to present any easy targets and stick your assualting forces together.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

180 Splinter shots at BS 4 to kill 10 space marines with FNP.

[Sanguinarian]

As someone said, Dev squads with missiles, they are the best all round choice for a DoA army anyway.

Adding mech vs DE is also rediculous...... a few tanks aren't going to phase them AT ALL. You give them the perfect target to shoot lances at.

FNP is a huge boon for you as well.

 

Venoms can only hold what 5-6 guys, and only take their poisoned splinter canons, which you literally laugh at with FNP. It takes something like 110+ shots to kill a squad of space marines, and thats with NO FNP!

 

Basically do the opposite of what Sanguinarian said and you'll be fine since I honestly can't see where he is getting his information about DE from, unless he plays really bad people who totally misuse the codex.

 

Main thing to watch: don't let your priests get killed in close combat. Also be careful of wyches, they have a 4+ invuln in CC that can be nasty. Shoot them to death, or flamer them.

 

WOW! I guess there is only ONE way to play Dark Eldar - Zealadin's way or no way! :huh: Might as well CLOSE this post then Moderators. ;)

 

Don't disregard anyone's opinion let alone the 100 games I've played against DE in my group. There's more than one way to skin a cat and totally dismissing one person's experience doesn't help the OP. <_<

 

Now, with that said, use what you have and figure out how YOU like to play. If you like tanks - I'm a Tread Head no doubt - or if you go all DoA, you ultimately have to figure out your own gameplan against your competition. What I do in Chicago works in Chicago and what anyone else does around the world doesn't mean that that's the ONLY way to do it. BAs are so versatile they can do it all.

 

This post has presented what works for some and not necessarily what doesn't work - because it all can if played properly - as much as what different players prefer to use. If you and/or your opponent play 'possum and stay castled in a corner - why even bother playing then in my opiinion - then there are tactics that work for that. If you just want to deploy everything at 12" and play meatgrinder every game, then there are things that will or will not work. If you actually want to play all the Battle Missions in the book then you'll find there are different ways to do that as well. Not just one way to do anything in life.

 

Bottom line, try every way imaginable and have FUN.

[BAjim]

I have been reading this topic with great interest. I'm preparing to play a Dark Eldar army for the first time and would appreciate your thoughts on my planned 1750 point Blood Angel army list.

 

My opponent likes a good game and has sent me his list well in advance because I have never played DE before. I have fought his Eldar a few times. His DE "hard counter" list is:

 

HQ

Archon

Duke Sliscus

 

Elite

Incubi x4 and Klaivex in a Raider

 

Troops

Kabalite warriors x9 and Sybarite in a Raider

Kabalite warriors x9 and Sybarite in a Raider

Wyches x9 and Hekatrix in a Raider

 

Fast

Reavers x4

 

Heavy

Ravagers x2, including an Arena Champion

 

I am assuming that he will use his speed and mutli vehicles to hit and run.

Therefore, I propose that I take control of the tempo as best I can with the following:

 

HQ

Dante

Librarian Epistolary in Terminator armour

Reclusiarch

 

Elite

Brother Corbulo

Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons and Magna-Grapple

 

Troops

Sanguinary Guard with Chapter Banner and an Infernus Pistol

Tactical Squad x10 with Meltagun, Lascannon, Chainsword in a Rhino with Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad x5 with Flamer, Chainsword and Melta Bombs in a Razorback with TL Heavy Bolters and a Storm Bolter

 

Fast

Land Speeder Typhoon with Heavy Flamer

 

Heavy

Dreadnought with Assault Cannon

Devastator Squad x5 men with 3x Missile Launchers, Multi-Melta, Chainsword, Melta Bombs

 

My tactics? I am planning on keeping my army close together and using firepower to reduce the DE before they strike, and charging in to assault in 2 waves:

1. Dante, Reclusiarch, and Sanguinary Guard; then

2. Tactical Squads and Librarian

The Furioso will use the magna-grapple to destroy or tank-shock, then assault.

 

Your recommendations?

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The Incubi and Ravagers are lynch pin units. If you can off them you should be alright.

 

Consider this he has 4 av 10 2 av 11 vehicles. Which are mildly more survivable than normal probably with Night shields (+6" range) and flicker fields (5+ invul) If you can put down that Dev squad with 4 MLs and keep the typhoon I think you're garunteed to take the Incubi raider out of the game right off the bat. Make sure you cluster for FNP and Push firmly. You want to get a few hits in on him thats where he'll fall apart.

 

Target Priority should be something like:

 

Incubi Raider > Ravagers > Warrior Raiders > Wych Raider > Incubi on foot > Warriors on foot > Wyches on foot> Reavers if you can geta few shots in

 

I would be careful about clustering too much you dont want them mutli charging you to hold up your shooting.

 

 

Remember Eldar want you hitting their tanks because they're tough as nails. Dark Eldar on the other hand dont want you hitting them period.

[Zealadin]

Your list is really top heavy. I don't think you can take 3 HQ's.

Your sang guard aren't bad, since their angelus bolters can really put down the hurt on DE. Their power weapons are good against the incubi as long as your striking first, but wyches have dodge so basically a 4+ invulnerable in CC, so you need to gun them down.

 

The Kabalite warriors can only move 6" and shoot from the raider, and will probably have a lance so its likely they won't move at all, unless he has given them a blaster, which means he can move 12" jump out and shoot (just the blaster at a tank, or poisoned weapons at infantry), but again, he isn't going to do much damage against a MEQ.

Wyches are good in that they won't do a huge amount of damage against you, but they will be hard to kill (in CC) and lock up a squad.

 

The arena champion is a reaver upgrade, although 4 is a weird number, you get 1 special weapon per 3.

 

I'm not a fan of that 10m Tac squad loadout, but at best you might get lucky and take out a raider with the LC shot.

The 5m tac squad...........

 

Razorspam only works when its razorspam, you need target saturation to stop someone just knocking out your vehicles and leaving you high and dry with no shooting power, no staying power, and not much at all to do.

I would never mix weapons like that in the Dev squad either. If its a 10m squad with two sets of two different weapons, maybe, but a 5 man squad gains nothing with the multimelta. Or the melta bombs... Its a mismatch of range and utility.

Assault cannons are good vs DE.

 

You also have no FNP bubbles....

 

His list isn't bad, but its pretty generic.

Your list is a bit all over the place and seems to lack a gameplan or design for how its meant to work as a whole, alot of individual combos or units you have worked out but your army needs to work together as well as individually, even playing space marines.

Too much candy and not enough potato if you will.

 

He has plenty of dark lances to split fire, so if he gets lucky against your vehicles he has the potential to kill 4 a turn (2 shots from each raider, 3 from each ravager) then if the reavers have heat lances or just blasters thats another squad, while the incubi will rip through whatever they touch except dreads.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I have been reading this topic with great interest. I'm preparing to play a Dark Eldar army for the first time and would appreciate your thoughts on my planned 1750 point Blood Angel army list.

 

My opponent likes a good game and has sent me his list well in advance because I have never played DE before. I have fought his Eldar a few times. His DE "hard counter" list is:

 

HQ

Archon

Duke Sliscus

 

Elite

Incubi x4 and Klaivex in a Raider

 

Troops

Kabalite warriors x9 and Sybarite in a Raider

Kabalite warriors x9 and Sybarite in a Raider

Wyches x9 and Hekatrix in a Raider

 

Fast

Reavers x4

 

Heavy

Ravagers x2, including an Arena Champion

 

I am assuming that he will use his speed and mutli vehicles to hit and run.

Therefore, I propose that I take control of the tempo as best I can with the following:

 

HQ

Dante

Librarian Epistolary in Terminator armour

Reclusiarch

 

Elite

Brother Corbulo

Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons and Magna-Grapple

 

Troops

Sanguinary Guard with Chapter Banner and an Infernus Pistol

Tactical Squad x10 with Meltagun, Lascannon, Chainsword in a Rhino with Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad x5 with Flamer, Chainsword and Melta Bombs in a Razorback with TL Heavy Bolters and a Storm Bolter

 

Fast

Land Speeder Typhoon with Heavy Flamer

 

Heavy

Dreadnought with Assault Cannon

Devastator Squad x5 men with 3x Missile Launchers, Multi-Melta, Chainsword, Melta Bombs

 

My tactics? I am planning on keeping my army close together and using firepower to reduce the DE before they strike, and charging in to assault in 2 waves:

1. Dante, Reclusiarch, and Sanguinary Guard; then

2. Tactical Squads and Librarian

The Furioso will use the magna-grapple to destroy or tank-shock, then assault.

 

Your recommendations?

 

Ok well first your list is illegal. You can't have 3 HQ normally. I would also be 'very' prepared to get assaulted rather than make the assault... it's just really an inevitability (somewhere on the table) against raider spam. :D

 

First priority - you need to focus on taking down the raider with Incubi... in that list they are really your only major threat. You can take assaults from the warriors and wyches and probably still win. Note that neither warriors NOR Icubi have assault-grenades. So... if you will get assaulted by either, which likely you will, be sure to stand in cover so you can strike first. Since you have tactical squads (rather than assault squads) utilizing rapid-fire this is probably the best tactic for you anyway.

 

Your 2 pronged assault approach might normally be excellent, but here, imo, I would keep the Sang Guard etc 'counter-assault' units behind your rhinos and dreads; don't worry, he will come you to - and fast.

 

Normally I'd say the 1 MM in your dev's is a bad idea because camped out (non-moving) devs are much less likely to be in 24" range, however in this case, when he is coming at you so fast, it is 'ok'; but I don't think your 'melta' powers work on their stuff anyway, I don't really remember. You'd be much better off with just 4 ML's in either case.

 

Finally ...the land speeder is a paradox. The very best thing about the typhoon speeder is that it will survive because it can stay so far away... you have the best range weapon on it, and then also a template weapon. Imo, you'd be better off with a HB instead of HF - if you are keeping the typhoon pattern.

 

Best of luck!

[BAjim]

Thanks to Bob, Zealadin and Gunzhard,

I'll fix the HQ (oops), the speeder and work on the rest of the list.