Eye see my reserve rolls

[shatter]

Just occurred to me.

 

Hypothetical BA army list contains two reserve elements packed to the gills (yes, a big flying fish reference): Stormraven Red and Stormraven Black.

It also contains Corbulo with his Far-Seeing Eye (re-roll any single roll rule. Any roll. Rerolling a success seems possible too).

 

May I roll for my Stormravens in a single batch with a red and a black die?

 

Batch rolls

red y, black y, no problem

red n, black y, reroll red (or reroll black if I want them both delayed)

red y, black n, reroll black (or reroll red if I want them both delayed)

red n, black n, wait another turn. Also no problem.

 

If the rolls MUST be consecutive, one must guess if the black roll will match red's first roll outcome as one cannot go back to the previous roll to reroll it as per BRB's restrictions on rerolls.

 

 

Sooo... what do you guys think? Is it beyond the rules to roll all reserve rolls simultaneously with coloured dice? Or is it merely a mustachioed mozzarella ball of subtle goodness?

 

Reason for Edit: Poor spelling of a special rule.

[Grey Mage]

Batch rolling is an optional rule.

 

As your opponent I refuse to allow that option in this case.

 

You must roll them consecutively.

[shatter]

Where does it say which method to use?

 

It doesn't.

 

Does it?

 

Only roll them and when they (the reserve rolls) are done, move on. (pg 94.)

 

Is there a FAQ I've since forgotten? Errata?

 

Could I not argue the case for consecutive rolling being optional too?

 

No method is outlined for multiple reserved units.

 

must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve

Batch and consecutive methods both do this.

 

Note: you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them on to the table as soon as they are available.

The soonest one can roll reserves is as a batch. That way, they're all rolled for first (equal). Tenuous? Yes, but arguably ever so slightly less tenuous than consecutive rolling which is merely a common interpretation rather than a rule as outlined in the BRB, no?

All I see is a common assumption unsupported by the BRB itself.

 

Perhaps you and I must roll this one off. ;)

 

Kinda expected a quote from you to be honest. Just one.... well, one from the BRB. ;)

[Grey Mage]

All dice rolls are individual by the description on pg 2. 'modifying dice rolls', even if they involve more than one die to determine the result- IE 2d6 is actually a single roll. The standard is rolling these individually- specific statements allow you to roll all to hits together in shooting and CC if they require the same to hit value. It is suggested that you can make the game go faster using differently colored dice for different weapons. It is also stated that rolling the successful dice from a previous batch can further speed up the game if you so wish. These are all explicit suggestions or rules that allow you to change the norm- rolling a single roll.

 

Reserves state you roll a die for each unit. Then, when you are done with those rolls you begin moving the successful ones onto the table. No batch rolling is stated, or even suggested. Your opponent is well within his rights to ask you to roll them individually because there is nothing in the rules that says you can roll them as a batch.

 

Thats my take on it anyways.

[shatter]

Batch rolls with matched dice are still separate.

 

And I say, for reserves, if someone wants to roll them consecutively, I too can tell him he must batch roll them (with matching dice) because it doesn't say you're allowed to roll them singularly and successively because it further states they become available at the same time and therefore the owning player decides which enabled reserve unit to move first. Ergo, it's as close to simultaneous as game mechanics can allow... which supports batch rolls with matching dice.

 

Anyway, I appreciate what you're saying, but the argument in my opinion is close enough to the same in validity either way as to be perfectly arguable to a roll off.

 

Are there any other codex special rules that would have brought this into question before and gained a somewhat related answer?

 

Anyone?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I would demand that you roll the reserves rolls one by one, for the same reason I do not allow someone I play to roll their Run (fleet) roll in the movement phase.

 

If I let you batch-roll the reserve roll, you can see if one, both, or none of the reserves make it before you decide to use the re-roll. If I let you roll the Run (fleet) roll in the movement phase, you get to see how far you move before you decide to go for that piece of cover or that unit you you thought you might reach for an assault.

 

Do you see why I'd object to your idea?

 

Besides, when your argument hinges on "It doesn't say I can't!", you're on very shaky groud.

[shatter]

I would demand that you roll the reserves rolls one by one, for the same reason I do not allow someone I play to roll their Run (fleet) roll in the movement phase.

 

If I let you batch-roll the reserve roll, you can see if one, both, or none of the reserves make it before you decide to use the re-roll. If I let you roll the Run (fleet) roll in the movement phase, you get to see how far you move before you decide to go for that piece of cover or that unit you you thought you might reach for an assault.

 

Do you see why I'd object to your idea?

 

Besides, when your argument hinges on "It doesn't say I can't!", you're on very shaky groud.

 

Your argument hangs on the same thing. It doesn't say you can't roll them consecutively either. Fact is, it doesn't say.

 

You've decided (as the rules don't state) how reserve rolls are made. Perhaps because it's never mattered.

 

*shrug*

 

Your run in the shoot phase comment is... err correct by rules. And is quite clear... and not related to the discussion. I've called shenanigans on it many times. Further, shoot phase unit rolls are specified as unit by unit. Reserve rules are specified as (all units) reserves.

 

I understand there's advantage with this All-Seeing Eye special rule when rolling reserves in die matched batches. That's why I went and checked the wording of reserve rolls and... well, there actually isn't any. Of course DoA has a smaller advantage in that they 'can (choose to) re-roll a failed' but they can't re-roll a success.

 

This was, I thought, a good enough reason for this thread. Corbulo with two SRs just exemplifies it into what could almost amount to an entire army gaining (relatively) high odds of arriving the same turn anywhere they like... scatter gods willing.

 

More importantly perhaps... if I hadn't brought it up, would 100% of people immediately notice the statistical difference?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Your argument hangs on the same thing. It doesn't say you can't roll them consecutively either. Fact is, it doesn't say.

Difference being that I am not seeking an advantage over my opponent.

 

When you're hunting for advantages like that, you should take a moment to examine your motives.

[Grey Mage]

Batch rolls with matched dice are still separate.

 

No, theyre not. Thats why its a batch.

[Vindicatus]

In instances of play where you've got one of those possibly advantageous "it doesn't say I can't either" situations, I would say it depends on your opponent.

 

Personally speaking, I've always rolled each reserve roll seperate for each unit, and I'm fairly certain every person I've played has done the same. I'm not a rules-lawyer, and I'm not going to argue someone into the ground if they decide to do something that happens to be in a gray area, but something like this? I'd personally make note of it, and possibly even decline further games.

 

Sounds harsh, almost childish, but here's why :

 

You cheese something like that, and it makes me wonder what other rules are fudged in your list. Some lists are good at being sneaky and underhanded (and sometimes that's the point), but when you're trying to find a hole in the actual rules to better fit your strategy, games' off, broskie.

 

TL;DR - When in the gray area of rules, your opponent is your checks and balances. It even states THAT in the rules.

[ShinyRhino]

The crux of the argument here is the hidden advantage. Far-Seeing Eye gives you that one reroll, and once you roll a second die, there's no going back.

By batch-rolling your reserves, and THEN deciding on the reroll, you're altering the mechanic of the rule. You're basically getting a double-dip of FSE, by determining the outcome of successive rolls before deciding which die to reroll.

I'm fine with colored-die batch rolling when there's no rerolling involved. When you add a selective reroll, though, that's where I'd draw the line.

 

Attempting to bilk your opponent by batch rolling, and selecting which roll you want rerolled should raise a red flag on your "fair play radar."

[dswanick]

Besides, when your argument hinges on "It doesn't say I can't!", you're on very shaky groud.

 

Your argument hangs on the same thing. It doesn't say you can't roll them consecutively either. Fact is, it doesn't say.

More importantly the rules tell you what you can do, it's not on your opponent to find a rule preventing you from doing something. This rule does not say you can roll in batches, neither does the batch rolling rule - therefore you can't, unless your opponent allows the breaking of the rule.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Batch rolls with matched dice are still separate.

 

No, theyre not. Thats why its a batch.

 

 

Brilliant.

 

G :(

[Ming]

Hmmmm. More friday puzzlers.

 

We typically roll for each unit coming in from reserves. ID the units coming in, then placing them on the table. Then moving forward with the rest of the turn.

 

FSE adds an issue doing it this way, where he would reroll a dice sometime after the other dice are known, but before the units are placed.

 

Does the rule state that the reroll occurs immediately? Or is that left open.

[nurglez]

thats how we used to play it, but the rule book does state that you roll for all your reserves, then place them. So you shouldn't be rolling for one reserve, place that, then roll for another and place that.

 

I'd say no to batch rolling, in this situation where you are trying to use a reroll to let you bring both in at once. I let my friend batch roll his 2 vendetta's, because they are both out flanking and once he has batched roll he will still roll individually for which side they come in, giving him no advantage (that I can see).

[Mezkh]

I roll my DOA rolls individually and I wouldn't allow my opponent to do it any other way TBH.

[shatter]

Please, be so kind as to quote rules for how reserves are rolled before saying what you good people 'think' and therefore how you can control your opponents interpretations.

 

Come on, guys. This is OR!

 

I've yet to see a rules based argument in this thread.

 

 

How do the rules say one must roll for reserves!

[Mezkh]

Please, be so kind as to quote rules for how reserves are rolled before saying what you good people 'think' and therefore how you can control your opponents interpretations.

 

Come on, guys. This is OR!

 

I've yet to see a rules based argument in this thread.

 

 

How do the rules say one must roll for reserves!

 

All dice rolls are individual by the description on pg 2. 'modifying dice rolls', even if they involve more than one die to determine the result- IE 2d6 is actually a single roll. The standard is rolling these individually- specific statements allow you to roll all to hits together in shooting and CC if they require the same to hit value. It is suggested that you can make the game go faster using differently colored dice for different weapons. It is also stated that rolling the successful dice from a previous batch can further speed up the game if you so wish. These are all explicit suggestions or rules that allow you to change the norm- rolling a single roll.

 

Reserves state you roll a die for each unit. Then, when you are done with those rolls you begin moving the successful ones onto the table. No batch rolling is stated, or even suggested. Your opponent is well within his rights to ask you to roll them individually because there is nothing in the rules that says you can roll them as a batch.

 

The dice rolls are by default individual. The rules don't tell you to roll in a batch, so you don't.

When rerolls are involved, rolling in a batch confers an advantage that wouldn't be present otherwise.

 

Would you allow a player who charged you with Sanguinary guard to roll all his hits as a batch, and re-roll 5 misses?

[dswanick]

Please, be so kind as to quote rules for how reserves are rolled before saying what you good people 'think' and therefore how you can control your opponents interpretations.

 

Come on, guys. This is OR!

 

I've yet to see a rules based argument in this thread.

 

 

How do the rules say one must roll for reserves!

Ask and ye shall receive :

At the start of each of his Movement phases except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve. Depending on the turn in question a certain result will mean that the unit has arrived. For example, on Turn 1 no reserves arrive, on Turn 2 the player needs a 4+ for a unit to arrive, and so on until Turn 5, when any units left will arrive automatically (see the Reserves table on this page). Once all of the unuts have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described late

RE·ROLLS & ROLL·OFFS

Re-rolls - In some situations the rules allow you a 're-roll' of the dice. This is exactly as it sounds- pick up the diceyou wish to re-roll and roll them again. The secood score counts, even if it means a worse

result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once regardless of the source of the re-roll. If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise

By following the directions in the above two rules sections - you would pick a unit in reserve, roll a die to see if it is available, upon learning the result of the roll you would decide if you want to accept the result or re-roll it. After accepting it or re-rolling it you would move on to the next unit in reserve. After rolling for the next unit it is too late to go back and change your mind about the decision to re-roll.

[Plague Angel]

Hm, but "the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve" doesn't say "roll them separately." It's specifying the number of dice rolled, not the number of rolls. So the quote isn't terribly helpful.

 

Possibly relevant: there's an Eldar stratagem in Planetstrike that lets the player make his reserve rolls, and then after making them he can assign the successes to his reserve units as he sees fit. Such a stratagem would seem to encourage batch rolling to save time, at least in its own case.

 

If that's not relevant, ignore me and carry on.

[Leonaides]

Planetstrike is almost completely irrelevant as its a non-competative rule-set. In fact, its more a guideline than a ruleset...

 

I've yet to see a rules based argument in this thread.

Surely that includes your own arguement then???

[Plague Angel]

Planetstrike is almost completely irrelevant as its a non-competative rule-set. In fact, its more a guideline than a ruleset...

 

Ah, no wonder I love it so much....

[Seahawk]

Planetstrike is almost completely irrelevant as its a non-competative rule-set. In fact, its more a guideline than a ruleset...

Um, well, no. It is rules just as much as Apocalypse and Cities of Death and Battle Missions. They are expansions to the core rules that include rules on how to play [insert expansion], thus they are official rules and can be taken into consideration. Besides, GW says the BRB is really just a guideline, as you can make up whatever you want on how to play (sometimes they even suggest it). So saying Planetstrike isn't "official" or it's "guidelines" because it's not competitive (also false) is just a false statement. Just because they're not used in tournaments (and actually I've seen/been in tournaments that have used all of the expansion sourcebooks) doesn't mean they're not "real rules."

 

All that aside, here are instances where it talks about fast/speed rolling:

 

Shooting: It says you should ideally roll them all together for hits and wounds, but you don't have to.

 

Saving Throws: You must roll saves for identical models together, not onsie-twosie as I see so many players do in a misguided effort to save more (and also apparently it's against the rules!).

 

Close Combat: Identical attacks should be rolled together, but don't have to.

 

Places where it doesn't allow speed-rolling or doesn't mention that you "should" where it might be useful: Dangerous Terrain, Vehicle Damage Rolls, and Reserve Rolls.

 

As so many players prescribe to the idea that you can only do things when the rules say you can, I'd argue against batch rolling reserves, as it doesn't say you can.

[trefenwyd]

Just a quick question to further stimulate discussion:

 

If we were talking about wounds on a squad with multiple ICs, would you have an issue with batch rolling saves (red dice for IC1, blue dice for IC2, white dice for squad) wounds, etc. and then choosing the eye for a re-roll?

 

I completely agree with forcing individual rolls for the reserves, as that's taking the Eye mechanic a bit too far. But along that same logic, are you then going to force your opponent to roll individually for every subsequent roll (including mixed wpns fire, to-hit, to-wound, etc.)? The reserves mechanic is potentially game-changing, and while it might be beneficial to know the total batch roll in other instances (for instance, a Trygon takes 5 wounds from a melta squad and the Eye could give the melta a wound re-roll for the 6th and final wound); is it really worth it to force individual rolling for the entire game?

[Grey Mage]

It should probly be noted that a shadowfield has you roll each save individually until it is failed....

 

I wouldnt go that far. But if my opponent wanted to do something out of the ordinairy- like batch rolling reserves- when there was an obvious advantage Id ask him to back it up with some rules.