Heresy Era Dismay

[Commissar Ciaphas Cain]

After spending a lot of time mulling this issue over in my own head and reading the various threads here in the Horus Heresy Section i've begun to realize that there is one thing that really bother me about how Black Library has portrayed some portions and players in the Heresy and I'm curious to see if you, my brothers feel the same either about this issue or others.

 

NOTE: This is NOT intended to be a whine thread.

 

So, the thing that has bothered me most about the Heresy as its been portrayed so far:

 

1) The Emperor. Honestly I don't think his characterization in the Horus Heresy fits how he's been depicted in most of the other background materials in 40k. The Emperor has spent the 10,000 years since the Heresy seemingly willingly (Seeing as how he instructed Dorn to entomb him within the Throne, though i'm aware of the fluff that depicts the High Lords as forcing him to stay on the Throne i'm not so sure on the truth of that) suffering in agony on the Golden Throne keeping the Warp Rift on Terra shut, powering the Astronomicon, creating Living Saints, etc. This however does not mesh with what the Emperor seems to be like in the Heresy where he's displayed as arrogant and selfish.

 

Not only that but it seems as if the Emperor seems to be almost.. Idiotic in his dealings with his Sons the Primarchs. Not informing them about Chaos (Which, however you rationalize it he should have at least informed the more cognizant Primarchs like Horus, Corax, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc.) seems outright unintelligent. Not to mention his heavy handed responses to seemingly everything, from Lorgar's admonishment (It's one thing to chastise the Word Bearers, its another to destroy an entire planet, ESPECIALLY given Lorgar's fragile psych which I have a hard time believing the Emperor couldn't at least grasp given the fact that he's lived for nigh on 38,000 years by the time of the Heresy) to the censure of ALL Librarians versus simply sitting Magnus and the Captains of the Thousand Sons down and explaining intelligently the reasons for his anger and some solutions rather than the rash reactions he displays.

 

All in all his portrayal just does not click with his depiction as suffering for the sake of humanity, and should you disagree with that point at the very least acknowledge that his behavior does not click with that of a being who is apparently over 30,000 years old and who has been leading humanity from the shadows for at least that long. You'd think he never read a psychology book or something. I find myself utterly confused as to why the Heresy series has portrayed him this way. I do have faith that Black Library has a plan to explain all this, but at the moment the heresy era books seem to smack of at least a little Chaos fanboyism. Creating sympathy and showing that the situation was not black and white is one thing, this seems to be another.

 

 

Please don't think that this means that i'm not a fan of the Heresy novels as they're easily my favorite by far, and Loyal Horus and his ilk are perhaps my favorite characters in all of 40k, it's just I can't seem to reason the logic of this issue.

 

-Chase (AKA Ciaphas Cain)

 

P.S. Does anyone else think that Sanguinius' portrayal speaks of Matt Ward-ism? In his portrayals in the HH books so far i've yet to read the whole Archangel great but sympathetic warrior thing. His only portrayals in the HH fluff (Both in the book series and collected visions) have him oscillating between an odd, crying can't cope with war character or a crazed raging berserker, none of which speak to me of the noble Angel of Vengeance/Justice aspect that I thought Sanguinius was supposed to represent. This could just be a bit of Blood Angel fanboyism on my part however, as i've been a BA player for 13 years and I still can't get over with how the BAs are depicted these days.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I also don't like the way the Emperor comes off in the HH novels, he's supposed to have spent longer than recorded history quietly observing humans before embarking on his grand plan, but his actual actions don't show any real wisdom. He doesn't tell the Primarchs about chaos, even though it's a big risk to them (Fulgrim would not have fallen if he knew daemon weapons were possible), and even though some of them are experimenting with warp powers (Hi Magnus). He abandons the Great Crusade without giving his trusted sons an idea of what is coming next (Horus likely wouldn't have turned without that factor). He lets Lorgar worship him as a God for years, then just comes in and tells him to stop, and that all that he did for those years was worthless. Maybe the writers are intending that the Heresy was engineered by the Emperor as part of his plan, but it really doesn't seem to fit, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I also wish they had made the Emperor-age Imperium more different than the modern one. My impression from the old fluff was that the Emperor was basically what we would consider a good guy and the Imperium while he was alive reflected that. He would ruthlessly exterminate enemies, but wasn't actively xenocidal. He would suppress Chaos worship, but didn't have an enforced state religion. The Mechanicum was attempting to restore the Golden Age of technology safely, not superstisiously hoarding scraps of old achievements. This made the Heresy and eventual fall into the modern xenophobic, superstitious, fanatical, oppressive Imperium a much greater tragedy, and very ironic. In the HH books, the old Imperium is pretty much like the new; it's a bit worse, but not the direct opposite - the xenophobia is the Emperor's direct command, there is a state religion of Imperial Truth, and the superstitious attitude towards technology is still there.

[Midgard]

Personally, I think there is more to the Emperor's plans than meets the eye, although I doubt it will ever be spelled out by BL - if they do it, the damage to the franchise might be quite significant (i.e. if they remove the plots-within-plots, conspiracy theory stuff by unambiguously stating certain things, some of the buyers drawn to the fluff might simply lose interest), but they could definitely imply it. It is not impossible that his seemingly arrogant and short-sighted actions are in fact master manipulation of the Primarchs to put them into the roles they are supposed to play...

[Razhbad]

Well I do not like the Emperor as an individual, but i do not think his decisions are idiotic but of a cruel genious. I personally think the Heresy is part of his grand plan.

[BrotherHostower]

I think the problem with the Emperor is he IS a good guy. He's attempting to use the Freddy Kruger defense to stop chaos, and to spare his Sons, he can't let them know about the thing that he's trying to make everyone forget about, or in order to truely realize his vision, he'll have to lobotomize them later. His chastisement of Lorgar seems heavy handed, but remember, Lorgar has had two other failure chapters to learn from, and he apparently didn't. All his sons had to do was listen, and do as they are told, this is the supreme ruler of mankind, he demands obedience at every turn, and most of the screw ups of the Primarchs are due to them second guessing him, and him giving them too many chances for redemption. If he had exterminated Lorgar then and there, for doing something he was teaching every human they encountered not to do, the Heresy would never have happened.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I think the problem with the Emperor is he IS a good guy.... His chastisement of Lorgar seems heavy handed,

 

His chastisement of Lorgar included bombing a city of innocent people into the ground - their only 'crime' was doing at gunpoint what the Emperor's legions told them to do. That just doesn't qualify as a good guy in my book, he's punishing people who did what he, through his chain of command, forced them to do at gunpoint. Destroying a town because it resists is perfectly fine, destroying a town because it complies 100% with your occupation forces, not cool. Especially when the Emperor has already seen that those occupation forces put a religion in place and hasn't stopped it for years and dozens (or was it hundreds?) or worlds.

[Pulse]

@Commissar Ciaphas Cain - I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said in your post. The Emperor and infact most of the Primarchs in the HH novels have been protrayed as complete idiots, with Horus being the exception, before his fall anyway.

[A D-B]

Most of these criticisms are of Horus Heresy lore in general, not the series.

 

Not only that but it seems as if the Emperor seems to be almost.. Idiotic in his dealings with his Sons the Primarchs. Not informing them about Chaos (Which, however you rationalize it he should have at least informed the more cognizant Primarchs like Horus, Corax, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc.) seems outright unintelligent.

 

It does. However, that's been official canon since forever. So you can only work with what you're given; that's not the fault of the series.

 

Not to mention his heavy handed responses to seemingly everything, from Lorgar's admonishment (It's one thing to chastise the Word Bearers, its another to destroy an entire planet, ESPECIALLY given Lorgar's fragile psych which I have a hard time believing the Emperor couldn't at least grasp given the fact that he's lived for nigh on 38,000 years by the time of the Heresy) to the censure of ALL Librarians versus simply sitting Magnus and the Captains of the Thousand Sons down and explaining intelligently the reasons for his anger and some solutions rather than the rash reactions he displays.

 

He didn't destroy the world. He destroyed several of its major cities, after evacuating the entire population. Humanity itself has done waaaayyyyyy worse things to heretics over the years (the Albigensian Crusade?), and that's what they were: heretics against the new order. In 40K, the planet would've been Exterminatus'd into a ball of dead rock, so they got off lightly, really. This is an Emperor who personally invented virus bombs, by the way. An Emperor whose armies conquered tens of thousands of worlds, crushing tens of thousands of cultures and religions, forcing trillions and trillions of people to pay tithes to his empire and name him Emperor. His armies annihilated any human culture that opposed him, because it was His Way or destruction.

 

I mean, really, even the nicest visionary dictator is still a dictator. Doing it all "for the good of the species" is only one of those soundbites that works with hindsight, and when everyone really believes you. From an in-universe standpoint, that would never happen - the whole point of 40K is that no one really knows What's Out There, because they'd go mad and succumb if they did.

 

And again, the Council of Nikea has been in the lore for ages, so that doesn't strike me as a valid criticism of the series. You can only work with what you're given.

 

 

P.S. Does anyone else think that Sanguinius' portrayal speaks of Matt Ward-ism? In his portrayals in the HH books so far i've yet to read the whole Archangel great but sympathetic warrior thing. His only portrayals in the HH fluff (Both in the book series and collected visions) have him oscillating between an odd, crying can't cope with war character or a crazed raging berserker, none of which speak to me of the noble Angel of Vengeance/Justice aspect that I thought Sanguinius was supposed to represent. This could just be a bit of Blood Angel fanboyism on my part however, as i've been a BA player for 13 years and I still can't get over with how the BAs are depicted these days.

 

No, I think it implies - from what little we've seen - a sympathetic warlord.

 

I don't recall any "raging berserker" aspects, especially as we've never seen him fight in the series, but "can't cope with war?"

 

Soldiers cry, and win the hearts of millions when it's in a famous photograph. You dare try it in a 40K novel, and suddenly everyone rags on the guy for being a loser. He sheds a few silent tears while finding his sons' remains, and all of a sudden he's a wimp?

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManlyTears

[Pulse]

As for Sangy crying - I think it is nice to see him feel that strongly for his sons.

 

As for soldiers crying - its more likely a soldier will cry for a fellow soldier they know than say, a commander, as he will be distanced.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

As for soldiers crying - its more likely a soldier will cry for a fellow soldier they know than say, a commander, as he will be distanced by his "work".... if you can call it that.

 

That depends on the commander, really. I'm not a crying kind of guy, but I was devastated when my first Battalion CO had to Change of Command out and drank myself into a stupor later that evening. That guy was boss, I'd have blitzed the world for him.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@A D-B: you just used TV Tropes to back up your arguement?

 

holy crap, your pretty damn awesome.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

@Khestra the Unbeheld - I agree, but i am talking generally. Most Commanders will feel sadness but are generally distanced and so won't feel it as strongly as soldier that served alongside him.

[Piousservant]

Most of these criticisms are of Horus Heresy lore in general, not the series.

 

Not only that but it seems as if the Emperor seems to be almost.. Idiotic in his dealings with his Sons the Primarchs. Not informing them about Chaos (Which, however you rationalize it he should have at least informed the more cognizant Primarchs like Horus, Corax, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc.) seems outright unintelligent.

 

It does. However, that's been official canon since forever. So you can only work with what you're given; that's not the fault of the series.

 

Not to mention his heavy handed responses to seemingly everything, from Lorgar's admonishment (It's one thing to chastise the Word Bearers, its another to destroy an entire planet, ESPECIALLY given Lorgar's fragile psych which I have a hard time believing the Emperor couldn't at least grasp given the fact that he's lived for nigh on 38,000 years by the time of the Heresy) to the censure of ALL Librarians versus simply sitting Magnus and the Captains of the Thousand Sons down and explaining intelligently the reasons for his anger and some solutions rather than the rash reactions he displays.

 

He didn't destroy the world. He destroyed several of its major cities, after evacuating the entire population. Humanity itself has done waaaayyyyyy worse things to heretics over the years (the Albigensian Crusade?), and that's what they were: heretics against the new order. In 40K, the planet would've been Exterminatus'd into a ball of dead rock, so they got off lightly, really. This is an Emperor who personally invented virus bombs, by the way. An Emperor whose armies conquered tens of thousands of worlds, crushing tens of thousands of cultures and religions, forcing trillions and trillions of people to pay tithes to his empire and name him Emperor. His armies annihilated any human culture that opposed him, because it was His Way or destruction.

 

I mean, really, even the nicest visionary dictator is still a dictator. Doing it all "for the good of the species" is only one of those soundbites that works with hindsight, and when everyone really believes you. From an in-universe standpoint, that would never happen - the whole point of 40K is that no one really knows What's Out There, because they'd go mad and succumb if they did.

 

And again, the Council of Nikea has been in the lore for ages, so that doesn't strike me as a valid criticism of the series. You can only work with what you're given.

 

Nikea has been around for ages - as the Emperor banning sorcery. Only with the Heresy artbooks and the series did it become all psykers in the Legions.

 

I do think that one of the ironies of the HH series, contrary to something I think you said in other thread, is that the deeper into the background it delves, the less

sense it makes. I agree that the background is being expanded by the series and revealing more but I think a lot of it doesn't make much sense. When it's all vague and we just know that half the primarchs turned, you can accept that - but when you see the detail as it has been shown it looks a lot more questionable. I appreciate you can only work with what you're given (though there have been plenty of retcons in the series, so...), and I guess the "epic" and "mythical" nature of the Heresy make it hard to meet some expectations but you have to admit there are a lot of things that now make less sense then they used to.

 

Regarding the Emperor, I'm hoping that when we see him in Loyalist books that he remains cold and distant as he is suggested by those who turned traitor. If he treats the loyalists better than he treats Logar and is all nice and friendly with the loyalist primarchs then I think that will feed the idea that their fall was deliberate and all the Emperors fault. If the loyalists were able to remain loyal despite the Emperors "faults" - such as they are - the traitor primarchs don't have that crutch (so much so anyway).

[A D-B]

I do think that one of the ironies of the HH series, contrary to something I think you said in other thread, is that the deeper into the background it delves, the less

sense it makes.

 

Now imagine it's your job.

 

And then imagine you're taking all this stuff that doesn't make sense, and trying to make it make sense in a novel.

 

And then imagine people see things not always making sense, and rather than blame the original stuff that didn't make sense - even when it's conclusively from previous flaws - they blame you.

 

This is something the HH team have joked about on more than one occasion.

[Piousservant]

Now imagine it's your job.

 

And then imagine you're taking all this stuff that doesn't make sense, and trying to make it make sense in a novel.

 

And then imagine people see things not always making sense, and rather than blame the original stuff that didn't make sense - even when it's conclusively from previous flaws - they blame you.

 

This is something the HH team have joked about on more than one occasion.

 

Heh. Fair point. :P

[Commissar Ciaphas Cain]

Most of these criticisms are of Horus Heresy lore in general, not the series.

 

Not only that but it seems as if the Emperor seems to be almost.. Idiotic in his dealings with his Sons the Primarchs. Not informing them about Chaos (Which, however you rationalize it he should have at least informed the more cognizant Primarchs like Horus, Corax, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc.) seems outright unintelligent.

 

It does. However, that's been official canon since forever. So you can only work with what you're given; that's not the fault of the series.

 

Not to mention his heavy handed responses to seemingly everything, from Lorgar's admonishment (It's one thing to chastise the Word Bearers, its another to destroy an entire planet, ESPECIALLY given Lorgar's fragile psych which I have a hard time believing the Emperor couldn't at least grasp given the fact that he's lived for nigh on 38,000 years by the time of the Heresy) to the censure of ALL Librarians versus simply sitting Magnus and the Captains of the Thousand Sons down and explaining intelligently the reasons for his anger and some solutions rather than the rash reactions he displays.

 

He didn't destroy the world. He destroyed several of its major cities, after evacuating the entire population. Humanity itself has done waaaayyyyyy worse things to heretics over the years (the Albigensian Crusade?), and that's what they were: heretics against the new order. In 40K, the planet would've been Exterminatus'd into a ball of dead rock, so they got off lightly, really. This is an Emperor who personally invented virus bombs, by the way. An Emperor whose armies conquered tens of thousands of worlds, crushing tens of thousands of cultures and religions, forcing trillions and trillions of people to pay tithes to his empire and name him Emperor. His armies annihilated any human culture that opposed him, because it was His Way or destruction.

 

I mean, really, even the nicest visionary dictator is still a dictator. Doing it all "for the good of the species" is only one of those soundbites that works with hindsight, and when everyone really believes you. From an in-universe standpoint, that would never happen - the whole point of 40K is that no one really knows What's Out There, because they'd go mad and succumb if they did.

 

And again, the Council of Nikea has been in the lore for ages, so that doesn't strike me as a valid criticism of the series. You can only work with what you're given.

 

 

P.S. Does anyone else think that Sanguinius' portrayal speaks of Matt Ward-ism? In his portrayals in the HH books so far i've yet to read the whole Archangel great but sympathetic warrior thing. His only portrayals in the HH fluff (Both in the book series and collected visions) have him oscillating between an odd, crying can't cope with war character or a crazed raging berserker, none of which speak to me of the noble Angel of Vengeance/Justice aspect that I thought Sanguinius was supposed to represent. This could just be a bit of Blood Angel fanboyism on my part however, as i've been a BA player for 13 years and I still can't get over with how the BAs are depicted these days.

 

No, I think it implies - from what little we've seen - a sympathetic warlord.

 

I don't recall any "raging berserker" aspects, especially as we've never seen him fight in the series, but "can't cope with war?"

 

Soldiers cry, and win the hearts of millions when it's in a famous photograph. You dare try it in a 40K novel, and suddenly everyone rags on the guy for being a loser. He sheds a few silent tears while finding his sons' remains, and all of a sudden he's a wimp?

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManlyTears

 

 

Oho, I didn't expect this thread to grow as fast as it did. Nor did I expect the prompt response from ADB hisself. I'll start off with conceding the point that my comments on Sanguinius were laden with hyperbole. I channelled a bit too much of my dislike of how the Blood Angels oft get stereotyped with the 5th Edition Codex (both by the writer and by the community at large in varying degrees) into my comments on poor Sanguinius. There's sort of a polarizing nature in how they're viewed outside of us BA players these days (at least with the people i've met) in that the BAs apparently oscillate between carbon copies of the Emperor's Children and World Eaters depending on the circumstance. But don't worry Sanguinius, you're still my favorite Primarch, and I do love you so. I'll cry manly tears with you until the end of days you golden Fabio-esque Angel you! :P

 

As far as the Emperor goes.. So you're saying that HH team's view (or at least your own) is that the Emperor has done all he's done, for as long as he's done.. Because he just wants to rule the galaxy? He's NOT doing it for mankind's own good or to protect mankind? I.. think my head just exploded. I sincerely hope that's NOT true and that you guys do eventually plan on making him seem at least a little bit less dickish down the road. Otherwise I think you just shattered my faith in the Imperium. I've always held to the belief that for all the terrible and destructive things the Emperor ordered, he WAS trying to protect humanity. To find out otherwise. You trying to get me to go all Talos Aaron? :cuss

 

On the topic of his punishment of Lorgar, I was under the impression that he ordered the whole population exterminated as a lesson, not that he had ordered as you said. That makes me feel loads better as far as that goes, so thanks for setting my minds at ease, ADB. The Council of Nikea thing, as Piousservant said, my issue isn't that the Council happened, as its been in the background forever, but that it was changed to be a heavy handed ban on all psykers and librarians rather than a ban on the sorcerous practices the Thousand Sons began to delve into.

 

I certainly hope I didn't come off as angry or disdainful to you guys on the HH team, you're my heroes. I'm not trying to overtly blame you guys for how things are, you work with what you have to. I don't know if I could do what you guys do, I'll tell you right now i'd definitely end up angering some Word Bearers players.. I'd have them acting like whiny 5 year olds :P . I just suppose reconciling "Brutal douche bag Dictator" (Again, Hyperbole!) with "Does whatever is necessary but for the sake of humanity, even to the point of suffering every moment of existence" is a bit hard to do for me, though I suppose its something i'll have to get used to going forward.

 

Here's an interesting point of debate for all of you: How does how the Heresy is depicted now match up with how you had envisioned everything in your head before the series came out? I can tell you, things are definitely panning out far different than I had imagined them!

 

-Chase

 

P.S. Also, a TV tropes reference. Nice.

[lee265]

Well the HH team is kind of in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. They have to stick to established fluff, and that makes the job a really hard one.

 

Just a reminder the Primarchs were at least in a limited sense breifed on chaos. Lokens sargent was possesed in one book and it was Horus (a primarch) that explained it was done by a powerful xenos living in the warp.

 

The emperor being a total dick hell bent on ruling the galaxy makes sense after that long among humanities blunders he probably just got fed up and decided to do something about it. so it was for humanity from a certain point of view.

 

I'm just waiting for the seige of terra now. personally i see how all the bboks are story related but I also have the opinion it is going to be a million volume series before I get to read it.

[Brannick]

Who knows, further books in the HH series may well delve in to realms that will explain some of these things, especially where the Emperor is concerned, as I also agree that he is currently due a spot on the Jeremy Kyle show for his parenting skills!

[douglas9521]

Oh please do that,i think jeremy kyle would last one snidy comment and it wouldnt be a letter that hit him on the head:)And i dont think the custodians would look up from their papers when security made a move lol.

[DCEET]

I wonder if the way the Emperor is being portrayed the way he is, is so that the "key" heretic Primarchs (Horus, Lorgar and Magnus) didn't look like complete idiots for renouncing him? There needs to be motive for them to do so and in a lot of way I felt sympathy for both Magnus and Lorgar whereas Horus was purely manipulated into turning heretic the other two had what they felt were valid reasons.

 

I mean without sorcery Magnus' legion would never have existed! There were barely a 1000 marines left due to the flesh change then one day Magnus hasn't got an eye and the flesh change has stopped and the Emperor didn't notice that? Although to be fair if the Emperor had orginally designed the Golden Throne for Magnus to use then he would have to have some degree of knowledge of the warp.

 

I think if Nikea hadnt banned psychic powers in their entirely but just sorcery where a sacrifice was required, Magnus would have been in a much more stable frame of mind. As for those hypocrit Space Wolves and their "Rune Priests" enough said. However without the sacrifices Magnus conducted he would have been unable to have been able to warn the Emperor, which in turn destroyed his destiny.

 

As for Lorgar I think his chastisement in front of the Ultramarines of his entire legion was maybe somewhat extreme. But as always the Emperor has to portray himself from a position of strength. Why the Emperor didn't see fit to mention to Lorgar about not idolising him, prior to the punishment I don't know. Then Lorgar's manipulation by Kor Phaeron and Erebus only worsened matters. However the punishment did serve its purpose during that time prior to the Heresy the Word Bearers achieved more compliances than any other Legion.

 

As an aside am I right in thinking Lorgar wrote Lectitio Divinatus? Or however it is spelt.

[Andurin Marvak]

On topic, I could easily see someone like Sanguinius, or even Russ, weeping. Not sobbing like a blubbering infant, but honestly shedding tears over the loss of life and ones close to their hearts. A good example, is that creepy pouting, raging, crying face Mel Gibson makes in the Patriot, when his son is killed. I think he does it during Braveheart at some point too. Also in We Were Soldiers.

 

Actually, the more I think about it, for those two, and probably Guilliman, Corax, and Vulkan as well, tears would be perfectly in character.

[Aegnor]

Can see Dorn maybe once in his life tearing up in extremis, before immediately quashing it and then smashing someone with his thunder hammer. Although if he didn't cry when he found Sanguinis and the Emperor after Horus died, it would be hard to think when. Maybe in the Iron Cage?

[shrike2214]

The poin the no one seems to have mentioned however is the fact that any thing HH before now should be taken with a pinch of salt. The older stuff pre 2006 is like a historical account and as they say history is written by the victor the pre 06 'cannon' should be considered imperial propaganda if you will whereas the post 06 novilisation is a first hand account so don be suprised when it dont quite mate up it's not ment to pre 06 is the story you will hear from imperial personell post 06 is what you would hear from the people who were there. I think what you need to do is forget what you were told before horus rising and just believe in what's in the books because like I say the visions series is probably to be taken as the victors story therefore propaganda

Just my 2cents...and the rest lol

[Ferrata]

I've cleaned up this thread a little. Please remember that we try avoid discussing religion here as it gets tarred down in unpleasentness. The same goes for little tiffs people were having, just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they are wrong. The world is a beautiful place and we all see it differently. Enjoy that we aren't all the same :P

[Candleshoes]

Again, please do not talk about religion, it has nothing to add to this discussion - Ferrata

 

***

 

As far as the OP

 

...because it was His Way or destruction.

 

This rational is constant in the HH series. I like the way it has been portrayed, since all of his experience seems to outweighs some of the more crucial decisions in our time frame, he certainly is not showing all of his cards, for he has no equals to ask an opinion from. I don't think we are really meant to understand why he does what he does, and I assume what motivates him are his own machinations. The Master of Mankind doesn't make choices lightly.