New Eldar units

[Hellios]

Warp Hunter find a link to rules in the description.

 

Shadow Spectres find qa link to rules in the description.

 

 

So any thoughts on these guys?

 

So my thoughts... they both compete for eldar HS slots which along with Elites is where alot of the action in the eldar list happens.

 

The Warp hunter I would compare to the fire prism. It has a shorter range (not such a problem on a smaller board) and isn't as flexible at long range but has a template weapon if it gets close (which eldar vehicles can do if they want). I'm thinking this is better than a lone fire prism a big expensive units (such as terminators and land raiders or models with lots of wounds and no eternal warrior). However it won't help so much against a load of orks and no bonus is gained from taking multiple warp hunters... apart from having more than one. I don't think this really changes the game for marines unless you take a lot of land raiders and terminators without storm shields (I'm looking at you black templar players with blessed hulls!)

 

As for the shadow spectres... I think this is an interesting unit that has some strengths but isn't over-powered and maybe a bit expensive... but eldar players are used to that. Again this looks like a good unit for busting tanks and heavy infantry (like terminators). The abillity to JSJ (Jump shoot jump) like tau battlesuits mean that if you are playing with terrain that can hide 5 eldar models I can see these being used to lurk behind terrain and fire a S10 lance shot before going back into cover... luckily it isn't AP1 otherwise raiders would be in trouble and Tau would turn green. Assuming the unit survives (it is small and fragile so if you can get something to target them they will go poof) when units get up close I see these guys hunting elite units like terminators or mega-nobs and again with JSJ they can give combat squads the run around. I see this unit as a cross between shining spears, dark reapers and fire dragons. Again this is an interesting unit but I don't see them becoming the next big thing for eldar (even if FW was allowed in GTs) but I certainly see some players using them but for the most part only hurting players with a lot of points in small elite units.

 

So people anything you want to add?

[chaplain belisarius]

thanks for that...ill have to give the warp hunter a go (although to be honest, its just a slightly better fire prism)

 

as for the aspect warrior squad...not very interested to be honest!

 

just my 2 cents..

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have no interest in the Warp Hunter, or the Hornet they posted up a few months back for that matter. Its nice to see that we (me being an Eldar player) get a mobile D-cannon, but I'm not a fan. Like you said, Heavy slots are just as contested as Elites are especially in Eldar armies, and I don't think this is worth it more than Fire Prism spam, War Walker spam, or Falcons.

 

As for the Shadow Spectres, I'm intrigued and I'm probably going to buy some soon. Jet Pack shennanigans and the 5++ on top of the standard Aspect armor gives them in an edge in survivability compared to, say, Dark Reapers, as does the fact that you can hold them at uber-long range and use Ghostlight & Cynosure to blast tanks to smithereens (a twinlinked S10 Lance weapon? Yes, please).

[captain sox]

not to sound rude, but isn't this kind of topic not allowed in this forum?

[Br0ther Rafen]

I am with Dues ex ferrum, I like the shadow Spectres, (or whatever they are called), they give a bit variety at least. The Dcannon tank isn't really all that great, pretty much like Falcon spam that I have seen in a lot of Eldar lists these days (please GW, a new codex!)

I would really like some more Aspects from FW/new codex, and making Guardians a viable option aside from objective camping.

my 2 cents

 

PS captain sox, shhh! No one needs to know! :woot:

But you right, it should be closed soon enough.

[Hellios]

not to sound rude, but isn't this kind of topic not allowed in this forum?

 

Well I was thinking along the lines of how this might hurt marines and to do that you need to know what the enemy can do. As I said in my first post the Warp-Hunter is basically a new fire prism. The Shadow specrtres are new and... I think they would be really annoying against a sanguinary guard army :tu: or other elite heavy forces.

 

So as far as I'm aware it is ok to talk about non PA armies if it in regard to how they will affect PA armies and what changes in tactics if any are needed.

[Grey Mage]

Yes... but we should be seeing more of that. Anyone who has access to this board should have access to the FW website, and they can see the rules there. If they cant, theres not a whole lot theyll be able to contribute anyways.

 

So please guys, lets keep this on topic.

 

 

Now... the Spectres are interesting. Sure, they move like Jet Infantry... but in some ways thats going to be their downfall. With only a 4+ armor save theyll be making that 5++ alot if they want to survive hits from my whirlwind... who does care that they just moved back behind cover.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My bad. My inner Autarch came out again, but don't worry, he's been suppressed again.

 

Whirlwinds are a threat to Spectres, sure, but its been a while since I saw a Whirlwind on the table. IF it can get LOS, a Thunderfire's sub-t rounds will ruin their day since they'll have to make dangerous terrain tests twice in a turn (they suffer difficult/dangerous during non-assault Assault phase moves). Or do Jet Packs not count as Jump Infantry? I can't remember.

 

The thing about the Spectres that worries me as a Marine player is that they fill one of the big gaps in the Eldar 'dex -- that of reliable long-range anti-tank guns. Bright lances are all well and good, but they only have one BS4 platform to carry them (Wraithlords); everything else is BS3 (somewhat mitigated by Serpents being twinlinked). They're too expensive to just spam them, too, especially on fragile platforms like War Walkers and Vypers. Plus, they get their best mileage against AV13+, but even against them it's still worse than a 50/50 shot at a penetrating hit. Fire Prisms combining their shots gets a twinlinked S10 shot which is decent, sure, and a small scatter you still might hit the target, but that's still worse than a 50/50 shot at a penetrating hit on a Land Raider. A twinlinked S10 Lance shot, however, will pen a Land Raider or the glacis of a Predator on a 3+, and that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, especially since they can do it from (theoretically) beyond the max range of our armor's longest ranged weapons.

 

And once their preferred targets are gone, they can close quickly -- as much as 18" in one turn on a max run roll -- and use those S6 AP2 guns to slaughter Marines. It wounds every Loyalist Astartes on a 2+ (excepting Cassius), wounds Death Guard on a 3+, denies FNP, and puts Tac and LC Termies in a hard place. And even though their weapons are short ranged, they come with Invulnerable saves and can take Hit And Run so charging them may or may not do you any good (sure, its just a 5+, but remember this is Eldar we're talking about; I fully expect them to be Fortuned if they're that close to the enemy). The only good thing about them is that they're a max of 5 models like Dark Reapers, so even with Fortune support, they're basically out of the fight if you can put in one good round of shooting on them.

[Hellios]

And once their preferred targets are gone, they can close quickly -- as much as 18" in one turn on a max run roll -- and use those S6 AP2 guns to slaughter Marines. It wounds every Loyalist Astartes on a 2+ (excepting Cassius), wounds Death Guard on a 3+, denies FNP, and puts Tac and LC Termies in a hard place. And even though their weapons are short ranged, they come with Invulnerable saves and can take Hit And Run so charging them may or may not do you any good (sure, its just a 5+, but remember this is Eldar we're talking about; I fully expect them to be Fortuned if they're that close to the enemy). The only good thing about them is that they're a max of 5 models like Dark Reapers, so even with Fortune support, they're basically out of the fight if you can put in one good round of shooting on them.

 

In a close support role I only see them being a threat to small or damaged units and that much like harlequins if they fail to wipe a target out they will be in trouble.I think up close a 10 man tactical squad will cause trouble for them even if they get the first shots in, on the other hand a 5 man combat squad is in big trouble.

 

The point about the whirlwind and Thundefire are valid although I don't think anyone will start taking them when they face eldar just because of shadow spectres but they will be useful for those who have them and happen to come against shadow spectres.

[Xeonic]

I think anything with a drop pod or deep striking or just plain fast enough with an AP4 weapon, bunch of rapidfire bolters, or humble heavy flamer will be a good counter to this. A tac squad or AC+HF dread podding in close would tear the whole unit up. Actually a speeder with HF would put quite a dent in the squad pretty easy. A whirlwind would do a great job but if you're not already using whirlwinds habitually you probably won't be fielding one just to counter them.

 

IMO it's a good unit for eldar, gives them a source of relatively hard to counter, accurate, and powerful longrange AT. To counter sheer utility, it's super expensive(seriously it's almost as much as terminators kitted out) and as fragile as most other aspect warriors. Plus, at 12" the squad is completely lethal to anything MEQ. If I were running an eldar list I'd seriously consider sneaking a unit of these in for casual play. They look awesome as well, which is always a plus. I would rather shoot pretty units than ugly ones.

[Wildfire]

First off, let's keep this focused on how to combat them as PA armies.

 

Tank thing: Meh, I think the existing tanks are much better. Eldar already excel in high-strength anti-infantry. Treat them the same as you would any other eldar tank, keep it stunned until you win.

 

Shadow whatevers: I don't really seem them as that big a threat. They must focus fire to be able to threaten tanks, meaning they aren't really that much more deadly than a fire prism. The invulnerable save is almost pointless with the jetpack save, and just about any kind of high ROF anti-infantry weapons will decimate them. The high point cost will ensure there aren't too many of them. I predict that against balanced lists they'll die before they're much of a threat. They do, however, have a large RPS factor against deathstar units.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Shadow whatevers: I don't really seem them as that big a threat. They must focus fire to be able to threaten tanks, meaning they aren't really that much more deadly than a fire prism. The invulnerable save is almost pointless with the jetpack save, and just about any kind of high ROF anti-infantry weapons will decimate them. The high point cost will ensure there aren't too many of them. I predict that against balanced lists they'll die before they're much of a threat. They do, however, have a large RPS factor against deathstar units.

 

They are MUCH more of a threat to armor than Fire Prisms. Like I said before, two Fire Prisms can hit a Land Raider even with a small scatter distance with a S10 AP2 hit -- they still need a 5+ to penetrate the armor. A full squad of Spectres, or a four man squad focusing through an Exarch with the S7 gun and Cynosure, will provide a twinlinked S10 AP2 Lance hit that penetrate a Raider on a 3+. That's a big difference. And while it might be a ~230 point unit, that's less than the cost of two kitted-out Fire Prisms, so that's fewer Heavy Support units shooting at one target. Plus, they can fire up to 60" with a full-strength Ghostlight, and the only thing we have to compare to that is the Thunderfire.

 

As for the survivability issue, yes, rapid firing bolters will kill them. I already hit on that. But think about their mobility. With the jet packs, they can recover behind terrain to deny LOS or pull a cover save from your shooting. If something gets too close that they can't handle, they can move up to 18" (with a run) or 12" and shoot to get out of the way, and in all likelyhood, there goes your rapid fire opportunity. Your only real chance to catch like them this is with a drop pod or maybe an Assault Squad (preferrably with a pair of flamers).

 

I'm not saying their invincible. They're not. They're just Eldar, with the same T3 and 4+ save that most Aspect Warriors have to contend with. I'm saying that your they'll-die-early prediction is unrealistic. Even if all they do in one game is to blow up a Land Raider on Turn One or Two, they've made their points back and inflicted a serious setback on your strategy.

[Bartali]

They are MUCH more of a threat to armor than Fire Prisms. Like I said before, two Fire Prisms can hit a Land Raider even with a small scatter distance with a S10 AP2 hit -- they still need a 5+ to penetrate the armor. A full squad of Spectres, or a four man squad focusing through an Exarch with the S7 gun and Cynosure, will provide a twinlinked S10 AP2 Lance hit that penetrate a Raider on a 3+. That's a big difference. And while it might be a ~230 point unit, that's less than the cost of two kitted-out Fire Prisms, so that's fewer Heavy Support units shooting at one target. Plus, they can fire up to 60" with a full-strength Ghostlight, and the only thing we have to compare to that is the Thunderfire.

 

The linked shot on a Fire Prism is S10 AP1. Makes all the difference.

 

I'll take Falcons or Prisms ta very much FW.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I stand corrected, but you still need a 5+ for a penetrating hit (though I suppose you could hope for a 6 on a glance roll). I'll take the 3+ penetrate and ONE heavy support unit doing the shooting instead of TWO.

[Captain Idaho]

The Aspect Warriors could be a pain for mechanised Space Marines, as are able to put a S9 hit and a Haywire grenade on a vehicle quite accurately. But it is still just one target at a time. If I had a Landraider I would be concerned with the amount of penetrating hits it might suffer, but my Rhinos would rather 2 potential hits than a Warwalker squadron, so I'm not too bothered!

 

If you have a spare Heavy Bolter then kill 'em! A pair of Typhoons will gut the squad with 4 Frag missiles and 6 Heavy bolter shots. :P

[Hellios]

They are MUCH more of a threat to armor than Fire Prisms. Like I said before, two Fire Prisms can hit a Land Raider even with a small scatter distance with a S10 AP2 hit -- they still need a 5+ to penetrate the armor. A full squad of Spectres, or a four man squad focusing through an Exarch with the S7 gun and Cynosure, will provide a twinlinked S10 AP2 Lance hit that penetrate a Raider on a 3+. That's a big difference. And while it might be a ~230 point unit, that's less than the cost of two kitted-out Fire Prisms, so that's fewer Heavy Support units shooting at one target. Plus, they can fire up to 60" with a full-strength Ghostlight, and the only thing we have to compare to that is the Thunderfire.

 

The linked shot on a Fire Prism is S10 AP1. Makes all the difference.

 

I'll take Falcons or Prisms ta very much FW.

The AP1 only makes a difference when you get the pen in the first place... personally for the points I think it should be AP1 or they need to knock a few points off and as has been pointed out you need two fire prisms (although you can get two naked ones for the same price... but then you have more KPs and so on so horses for courses...)...

 

@ Captain Idaho... one of the good things FW has done is give Eldar the Hornet... I like to think of it as the fast love child of a vyper and a warwalker... stick two scatter lasers on those and off they go rhino hunting :o but you are right the new eldar units are only a big deal if you are packing elite stuff.

 

Heavy bolter is a good idea but if it is stationary will it be able to draw LoS to a JSJ squad hiding behind a wall (granted they may not always have a wall)... the land speeder is a good idea but if eldar are good at anything it is packing high volumes of s6 shots... great for taking down those land speeders, you could deepstrike them in but by the time they arrive the shadow spectres may have done their work. The best idea seems to be drop-podding something into them or something like Deathwing assault that allows you to get down on turn 1... hell horrors of Tzeentch in the first wave if you play daemons... although in that case protecting land raiders isn't much of an issue.

 

If anyone get a chance to use or play against these guys soon with the models or using a proxy tell us how it goes :devil:

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, Eldar are my bogey army to face. I've never beaten them, only drew, so I'm not surprised my idea didn't work!

[Wildfire]

Hmm, good point on them only taking one slot. Still, heavy bolters and assault cannons will make mincemeat of this squad. I'm not discounting JSJ, but even a 4+ cover save won't keep them alive for long.