Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Marneus Calgar and Darnath Lysander are two of the most expensive and formidable fighters in our regular codex, would it ever be feasible to run both in the same list? They could probably dish out some real damage between them, but would lysander overwrite regular chapter tactics with his own? I feel between the two they could probably lead two pronged death dealing assaults and walk away with fewer casualties... Admittedly this doesn't leave lots of points for other things, but attaching them to regular or small units could turn them into small powerful assault units that can take a lot of flak, potentially clearing room for killier things elsewhere... What do you all think, a worthwhile idea, especially at 1500? Or could there be something to running 2 Eternal Warriors... Lets hear some pros and cons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 really not worth 1/3rd of your points on two footsloggers.. reagrdless of how tough they are you have to get to your opponent and that could take 3 turns.. in which time your dogmeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Brother Torgo Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Agreed. By the time you add a landraider (you do want to get into assault at some point, right?) you're talking over 700 points... not counting any other buddies they bring to play. Just too much for 1500, but could be fun for a big 2500 point brawl. On foot it's even worse as GC08 pointed out. You're going to get circles run around those two guys by an opponent with any mobility without enough points of your own left over to respond in kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 I admit lysander at least has mobility issues, though ALL characters are footsloggers really...lacking a hover platform :( Calgar could ride in a rhino or razorback and both are tough enough to bring a regular unit up in fighting talent. Isn't Calgar capable of making a simple tactical a heck of a lot punchier? Admittedly this unit is a bundle, but one of my main concerns is the fact lysander brings in chapter tactics, calgar doesn't. Would that mean lysanders rules are an auto overide and work against calgars own special rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br0ther Rafen Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I would say that Lysander trumps Calgar in this respect, I'm afraid (and cheaper too :tu:). But I don't know if you can choose not to use Chapter tactics instead of Combat tactics. Hope this helps (though I don't think that it does :() Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm personally more of a calgar fan (though lysander comes bloody close) I like both characters, I merely wanted to know how they could do together. At 200 points lysander is a strong buy, but isn't such a team player, but at a land raider price, calgar is a little costly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br0ther Rafen Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 If I was going to take Calgar in a list, it would be for his three Honour guard squad advantage. Proxied one of those in an Apocalypse game once, against an green tide Ork player. Let's just say, Khorne was very pleased that day when the blood sarted to flow (I am not a heretic, jsut saying :D) In regular games though, I'd only run your type of list in a 2k-2.5 list just for fun. keep them together, with some Honour Guard in a Raider and the you can do some major damage. Of course, the unit will take up 1000pt+, but it will kill EVERYTHING :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Admittedly this unit is a bundle, but one of my main concerns is the fact lysander brings in chapter tactics, calgar doesn't. Would that mean lysanders rules are an auto overide and work against calgars own special rules? Yeah, I would say so. The wording of Chapter Tactics is "all units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule for...", so that means that nothing has Combat Tactics any more, and thus couldn't be affected by God of War. Bummer. Although I was positive that it would work until I double-checked my codex, as I didn't recall that God of War specifically states that it affects all units with the Combat Tactics rule. That said, the God of War rule would still apply to Calgar himself, for what that's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Would be interesting to put the 2 of them with a 5 man Combat squad and Drop Pod though. It's much cheaper! Look at it as taking Calgar and instead of purchasing 5 wounds from Terminator Assault Marines for 200pts, you are purchasing 4. :P It might be worth trying in a friendly 1500pts game to see how you manage? I'm interested because there isn't much that could stand against them, save for larger units of Orks and the like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 The wording of Chapter Tactics is "all units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule for...", Yeah its this line that gets me, if i took another character with chapter tactics, I could choose, but theres no way to pick 'default' tactics. Kinda puts me off a bit... I'm interested because there isn't much that could stand against them, save for larger units of Orks and the like! I'd be interested to see how they do, I mean its a pretty hardy combination! I guess they'd always be outnumbered and trying to cut down enemies could prove tough....though in this concept, both calgar and lysander COULD take honour guard and have an honour guard unit left over spare....2 characters, 3 honour guards...lots of points in the ol HQ section :) They could single handedly cover pretty much all infantry and maybe vehicles and monstrous creatures. A couple of rifleman and some melta based weapons to deal with bigger tanks and I suppose its possible to scrape by with scouts as troops for objective holding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 One of my friends was planning to field them together, he got really excited about it, until we pointed out that Lysander overrode Calgar's awesome combat tactics ability. To be honest, what they can take out depends on what you throw them at, and with what backup. Together, I wouldn't expect them to fare too well against an Ork Boy horde, but together I'd expect them to beat up a brood of Carnifexes. Their EW and power fist and thunder hammer attacks, plus invulnerables means they act a bit like TH/SS Terminators, go after the big guys and ground them into the dirt. Could be fun to use, especially if you use Calgar's Honour Guard to take on those Ork Boyz while you go after the Mega Nobz.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFisty Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 If you are thinking of spending that many points on two models then I believe trying to go cheap on the support unit(s) which accompanie(s) them would defeat the purpose. Depending on your opponents list you might be OK with basic Marines but more often than not they will be better served by units with an Invul. save. Keep in mind, I believe both of these units attack at I1. They will need some tough ablative wounds around them to live long enough to dish out their damage. Land Raiders are the only reliable transport to put them in. Any of the other transport options are better than walking them up the board and i believe that anything with tank treads is better than a drop pod. Overall, I think it is better to spend the extra points to give them better support units and transports. That probably means that they are only a viable duo in very high points games. For The Emperor, McFisty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Calgar can attack at I5 if decides to use his power weapon, and remember that he is able to re-roll failed to wound rolls, so it's effectively a lightning claw, so he can help thin down the ranks before Lysander strikes. An Honour Guard or TH/SS escort would perhaps be better, but if you want to run both Calgar and Lysander in a transport it has to be either a Drop Pod or a Land Raider, Lysander won't be able to go into a Rhino or Razorback, and neither will Calgar if you give him his Terminator armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Calgar can attack at I5 if decides to use his power weapon, and remember that he is able to re-roll failed to wound rolls, so it's effectively a lightning claw, so he can help thin down the ranks before Lysander strikes. An Honour Guard or TH/SS escort would perhaps be better, but if you want to run both Calgar and Lysander in a transport it has to be either a Drop Pod or a Land Raider, Lysander won't be able to go into a Rhino or Razorback, and neither will Calgar if you give him his Terminator armour. Indeedy-do. I would do the following: Calgar - Armour of Antilocus Lysander 5 Vanguard - no upgrades by Sergeant comes with power weapon Drop pod = 625pts Right in the middle of the enemy army! Do so with 2 more Drop Pods in your army, and you can provide a real head ache first turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 What, no Honour Guard? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 What, no Honour Guard? ;) Ha, shockingly no. I take Honour Guard without Calgar, but due to costs I wouldn't take them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LardO'Blood Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 It will be fun...Until you meet a Grey Knight force weapon! Heh, toss in an ironclad and an empty drop pod for a tactical squad Captain Idaho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 I take Honour Guard without Calgar, but due to costs I wouldn't take them together. I plan on taking these lads in a list when I get round to getting them...maybe I could call it the 'Grim' pattern and name something after me! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 While I wouldn't use Calgar and Lysander in one list, a great Lysander plus other special character combo is Lysander, Kantor, and a Sternguard in a drop pod. They can drop down behind a wall of mech, and blow things up with combi-meltas and meltas. Lysander is an excellent wound soak, the combi-melta sternguard make cheap throwaway models once they've shot the melta, and Kantor's invuln save is also useful. Second turn, they can fire more melta goodness, and then charge the vehicle and destroy it with krak grenades, power fist attacks, and the Lysanderhammer. If you're playing objectives, Kantor makes sternguard scoring, so they can hold an objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Lysander really isn't a team playing character, ok he makes us stubborn, thats a double edged sword and then hes boosting only the squad he's in (and even then its to do something lysander doesn't even bring to the table) which makes him rather odd....hes really a 200 point sledgehammer. In the concept for this army I really wanted Calgar's tact and lysanders smash (Calgar brings plenty of smash too)...of course lysander just brings his rules in which sort of nullifies that idea. I've heard the Lysander+Kantor combo a million times (not to say its not decent, its just common) no offence Ignis, I appreciate the validity of your statement! Are there any other character combos with the lesser heroes that might be a worthy tag team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Are there any other character combos with the lesser heroes that might be a worthy tag team? Sicarius and Lysander/Kantor. Kantor is preferred due to Sternguard being scoring and his cheapness, plus Inspiring Presence. What this does is give the entire army Stubborn, and as long as Sic is alive, Ld10. Much better than Fearless IMHO. I can't think of many others, because they all override each other. Perhaps Khan and Shrike? Keep Khan's tactics, infiltrate a nasty unit with Shrike, use it to keep the enemy distracted while your firebase works, and then finish off with outflanking units. Or Vulkan and Cassius? Cassius boosts Vulkan's TH/SS Terminators, and Vulkan boosts his combi-flamer. It's an interesting idea, but in these instances you're looking for someone who doesn't overwrite but yet gives bonuses, or an ability that can help a superior Chapter tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dont forget the craziness of Lysander + Calgar + Command Squad. Adding FNP to both Calgar and Lysander is crazy!! Outside of some fun one offs when you and a mate have decided to make stupid lists, I dont see this being an option I would stick with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'd forgotten about the Command squad. You might as well make the most of it and load them all up with storm shields and lightning claws, thin out the enemy ranks before the heavy hitters have their say :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Sounds like a decent plan actually.....command squads making a couple of the toughest characters even tougher... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 except that anything used to kill these guys will probably have AP/power weapon goodness enough to counter FNP.. only really helps vs buckets of dice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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