So, what DONT we have?

[jimbo1701]

There's a good reason for no relic blades - the fact that we can easily upgrade our units to have furious charge. How evil would that be on S6 weapons?!?!

Relic Blades and Furious Charge would be irrelevant. The weapon hits at S6 either way. Honestly, a lightning claw is probably better for us than a relic blade because of furious charge.

 

That's true JI, forgot that the wording was 'hits at S6' rather than 'is S6', though the initiative boost may make all the difference Vs MEQ. That aside, I'd still take FC GEs (and LCs to an extent) over the RBs.

 

So, using a standard vet on the (furious) charge, an LC would give 3 S5 attacks at I5, rerolling to wound, whereas a GE would give the same except rerolling 1 to hit. There's very little in it, but when we compare to RBs, irrespective of the initiative boost we're talking 3 S6 hits with no rerolls. Might be considered to be about as good Vs anything T4 and above, due to hitting on 2 rather than 3 at T4, 4 rather than 5 at T6. Also Vs rear armour of vehicles - Id take a 1:3 over a 1:6 chance anyday. But hey, this is probably a subject for another thread.

 

:D

[SnorriSnorrison]

What I'd really want from C:SM is artificer armour for our Captains, and maybe a special rule such as Rites of Battle from Tycho. Just to make them viable again, in comparison with Libbies/Reclusiarchs and the special characters. Glaive Encarmines would be sweet as well and it doesn't make any sense that GW decided to make these options not available for Captains. I mean, if they can't get them, who else should? My point exactly. It's about the principle.

 

 

Snorri

[the jeske]

Am going to ask a probably stupid question , but why even if they had art armor and relic blades would a BA player pick cpts as a HQ choice when a libby is much better [more use out of hood , better buffs for self and squads , better offensicve powers] and specials give more killing power . A cpt class character makes sense if he changes the FoC [bA got that build in with troops RAS] or gives options [but the BA cpt doesnt make bikers troops] . So I kind of a dont understand why would anyone want buffs to a character that would never be taken anyway . It is as if a chaos player asked why spawns cant be marked .

[SamaNagol]

I only said maybe

[SnorriSnorrison]

Am going to ask a probably stupid question , but why even if they had art armor and relic blades would a BA player pick cpts as a HQ choice when a libby is much better [more use out of hood , better buffs for self and squads , better offensicve powers] and specials give more killing power . A cpt class character makes sense if he changes the FoC [bA got that build in with troops RAS] or gives options [but the BA cpt doesnt make bikers troops] . So I kind of a dont understand why would anyone want buffs to a character that would never be taken anyway . It is as if a chaos player asked why spawns cant be marked .

 

There are some people who enjoy the story and background behind their armies and the games they play. I pity those who can't understand why one would choose a Captain over a Librarian even with AA. A company needs its Captain. The Captain is the commanding officer and an inspiring leader on the battlefield. That's why one would choose a "cpt class character" even if he doesn't change the FOC.

 

It's about style.

 

Snorri

[Plague Angel]

Am going to ask a probably stupid question , but why even if they had art armor and relic blades would a BA player pick cpts as a HQ choice when a libby is much better [more use out of hood , better buffs for self and squads , better offensicve powers] and specials give more killing power . A cpt class character makes sense if he changes the FoC [bA got that build in with troops RAS] or gives options [but the BA cpt doesnt make bikers troops] . So I kind of a dont understand why would anyone want buffs to a character that would never be taken anyway . It is as if a chaos player asked why spawns cant be marked .

 

There are some people who enjoy the story and background behind their armies and the games they play. I pity those who can't understand why one would choose a Captain over a Librarian even with AA. A company needs its Captain. The Captain is the commanding officer and an inspiring leader on the battlefield. That's why one would choose a "cpt class character" even if he doesn't change the FOC.

 

It's about style.

 

Snorri

 

I'm actually 100% with Jeske on this one.

 

The people you're describing, Snorri, would probably take a Captain even now. Heck, I have a Captain model ready, just waiting to be fielded once I paint him. But people insist on complaining about how worthless he is, even though the things they demand wouldn't make too much difference.

[Valkyrion]

Forget infantry. Infantry is and should be completely fluff based to fit with the chapter and there should be a bit of uniqueness. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard is the BA thing, Death and Raven is the DA thing, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard are the SW thing. The space marine thing is that nothing is special but the troop choices are cheaper.

 

There is little basis in fluff for a space marine chapter to hog a vehicle. The Blood Angels have 5 unique vehicles - Baal, Storm Raven, Librarian Dread, Death Company Dread, Furioso Dread.

 

Let the Blood Angels have the DC Dread - no problem with that. But no other chapters are capable of putting a Librarian in a dreadnought, or giving it two fists, or putting an assault cannon on a predator when they can do it with Razorbacks?

 

If the Storm Raven was going to be a unique vehicle then it should have been unique to the Grey Knights alone due to their infinitely more specialised nature. The fact that it's not unique should mean that other chapters get to use it. The Baal Predator shouldn't be unique either. It's just a predator and should be a heavy support slot available to all chapters but make the 'fast' and 'scout' unique to the BA.

 

All this has been compounded by the fact that the entire FOC has been reorganised to accomodate these new shinies. Dedicated Land Raiders, Fast Attack Predators, Heavy Support Dreadnoughts.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I'm actually 100% with Jeske on this one.

 

The people you're describing, Snorri, would probably take a Captain even now. Heck, I have a Captain model ready, just waiting to be fielded once I paint him. But people insist on complaining about how worthless he is, even though the things they demand wouldn't make too much difference.

 

I do take a Captain as often I can. I like it to have a force commander, because I like to add some background to my games. There's only a bitter taste in my mouth when I look at his unit entry and compare it to other codizes. The masters of art yadda yadda that do not have artificer armour for their highest rank officers sounds like a bad april's joke to me. :D

 

He's not worthless, its just a shame that his abilities are limited on pure hack'n slay and nothing else really. Of course, a Captain should be able to kill his foes, but also to command the brothers of his company with wisdom and tactical efficiency. That's why I think that Rites of Battle is important for his...rehabilitation.

 

With AA and RoB, I think even those who complain now that the Captain is worthless would be more likely to change their mind and consider him as a real alternative to Librarians/Reclusiarchs(both are awesome, but I think it's a shame that the Cap'n is left behind).

 

 

Snorri

[Plague Angel]

There is little basis in fluff for a space marine chapter to hog a vehicle. The Blood Angels have 5 unique vehicles - Baal, Storm Raven, Librarian Dread, Death Company Dread, Furioso Dread.

 

Let the Blood Angels have the DC Dread - no problem with that. But no other chapters are capable of putting a Librarian in a dreadnought, or giving it two fists, or putting an assault cannon on a predator when they can do it with Razorbacks?

 

The Mechanicus fanboy in me disagrees with you completely.

 

STCs are vitally, vitally important. They are sacred and all-holy. You do not deviate from them. It is tech-heresy.

 

The Blood Angels have the STC to the Baal-pattern Predator, and they refuse to hand it over the the Mechanicus. The Mechanicus is bitter and resentful about this, but that's how it is.

 

Put an assault cannon on a Predator? Attempting to recreate the product of an STC on your own, without access to the STC itself? As though you could innovate or reverse-engineer and develop the equal of an STC-produced vehicle? Omnissiah smite thee for your arrogance!

 

 

As for the Furioso-pattern Dreadnought:

Different forge worlds have their own variations on accepted orthodox designs. Inevitably different patterns will develop. Fluffwise, there's no difference between the Furioso-pattern Venerable Dreadnoughts of the Blood Angels, and the Venerable Dreadnoughts of the Ultramarines. They're different patterns of the same vehicle.

 

There is every justification in the fluff for the Blood Angels to have their unique vehicles. You cannot just put new weapons on a tank. Much as it seems like common sense to us, that is not how 40k's setting works.

 

The only unique vehicle I don't understand is the Librarian Dreadnought. I can only assume we're the test-bed for it.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

If you look at the Vanilla dex which has what you're asking, you still see very, very few people take him. If Rites came back, then we would see more.

[Valkyrion]

The Land Raider Helios was a land raider with a whirlwind launcher put on top by the Red Scorpions mid campaign.

 

If the BA want to hog the Baal then fair enough. But the Librarian Dreadnought and Storm Raven should not be unique to the BA and I think the SR will go the same way as the LRC.

 

The marketing of it all is the most galling aspect. You can have 3 predators and up to 11 Land Raiders without touching the heavy support section, then the new dreadnoughts in both troops and elites, a new skimmer in heavy support...it's too much. It's screaming 'i'm new and shiny buy me buy me buy me!' GW has really piled it on the the BA, much more than they've ever done before.

[SnorriSnorrison]

If you look at the Vanilla dex which has what you're asking, you still see very, very few people take him. If Rites came back, then we would see more.

 

Well, Vanilla Dex has no option of FC, FnP and Infernus Pistols for a Captain. We do, but I agree with you on the second point. Rites is quite essential for the Captain to see a renaissance, it would just be nice if he also had artificer armour as well.

 

Well, too much complains for one day. I shall rest now. :D

 

Snorri

[Plague Angel]

You can have 3 predators and up to 11 Land Raiders without touching the heavy support section

 

You can?

 

Yes of course I know, 6 Troop Slots with Dedicated Transports and 5 Elite Slots with Dedicated Transports.

 

But no actually, you can't: you just described a minimum 4000 points, without an HQ. How many of those models could you actually field in a real game? At the levels you're talking about, fielding 11 Land Raiders, 3 Baals, and 3 Stormravens, we're getting into Apocalypse territory and the FOC goes out the window anyway.

[Brother Corrus]

We get a good deal. There will be things in any codex / army book / rulebook that people would like to change. It does seem odd to me from a fluff point of view that our captains don't get artificer armour but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Admittedly I've only started with this codex not had chages to an army I've played for years but if the codex bugged me too much I'd play a different army.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Since the release of the SR and the news that it wont be availabe outside of BA and GK, other roums are again full of complaints that we angels of death get far to much exclusive wargear such as Lib dreads, magns grapples, Sang priests etc.

 

My argument that weve had DC since at least 3rd and sang priests are our intrinsic flavour are falling on deaf ears, so i ask you - what do WE miss out on?

 

Wrong, we've had Death Company since 2nd ed actualy :D

[SamaNagol]

For 160pts it would be a nice second HQ choice to take, if you aren't using any DC.

[Zeller]

Other chapters don't need the Furioso they have the Ironclad and the Venerable dreadnought which is more balanced in abilities. See WS/BS 5 vs WS6 BS4 on Furioso. The Ironclad is your Furioso so leave our poor critter alone.

 

The Baal is ours and as Plague Angel said you'd be nuts to even think the Imperium could reverse engineer or create something of their of imagining.

 

There differences are there. Would you really prefer the space marines to have an all encompassing codex like C:CSM? Let's not.

[the jeske]

I pity those who can't understand why one would choose a Captain over a Librarian even with AA.

but if you dont care about the actual rules then why not counts as or use tycho ?

[Brother Weasel]

You can have 3 predators and up to 11 Land Raiders without touching the heavy support section

 

You can?

 

Yes of course I know, 6 Troop Slots with Dedicated Transports and 5 Elite Slots with Dedicated Transports.

 

But no actually, you can't: you just described a minimum 4000 points, without an HQ. How many of those models could you actually field in a real game? At the levels you're talking about, fielding 11 Land Raiders, 3 Baals, and 3 Stormravens, we're getting into Apocalypse territory and the FOC goes out the window anyway.

 

 

cheapest i have, 3 baal, 11 lr redeemers and 3 ravens completely legal list...4955 points:)

[Plague Angel]

You can have 3 predators and up to 11 Land Raiders without touching the heavy support section

 

You can?

 

Yes of course I know, 6 Troop Slots with Dedicated Transports and 5 Elite Slots with Dedicated Transports.

 

But no actually, you can't: you just described a minimum 4000 points, without an HQ. How many of those models could you actually field in a real game? At the levels you're talking about, fielding 11 Land Raiders, 3 Baals, and 3 Stormravens, we're getting into Apocalypse territory and the FOC goes out the window anyway.

 

 

cheapest i have, 3 baal, 11 lr redeemers and 3 ravens completely legal list...4955 points:)

 

Did you take 2 HQ, each with their own Honor Guard?

[Brother Weasel]

You can have 3 predators and up to 11 Land Raiders without touching the heavy support section

 

You can?

 

Yes of course I know, 6 Troop Slots with Dedicated Transports and 5 Elite Slots with Dedicated Transports.

 

But no actually, you can't: you just described a minimum 4000 points, without an HQ. How many of those models could you actually field in a real game? At the levels you're talking about, fielding 11 Land Raiders, 3 Baals, and 3 Stormravens, we're getting into Apocalypse territory and the FOC goes out the window anyway.

 

 

cheapest i have, 3 baal, 11 lr redeemers and 3 ravens completely legal list...4955 points:)

 

Did you take 2 HQ, each with their own Honor Guard?

 

yes,

 

2 HQ, 2 HG.

6 assult

3 stern

3baal

3 sr

no upgrades

[Octavulg]

There is every justification in the fluff for the Blood Angels to have their unique vehicles. You cannot just put new weapons on a tank. Much as it seems like common sense to us, that is not how 40k's setting works.

 

No there isn't.

 

Tell me, do you know where all the Land Raider variants came from? They're modifications. Space Marine Chapters using their ingenuity and mucking about.

 

The Predator Annihilator? Field-expedient modification by the Space Wolves.

 

Power armor? Assembled, designed and produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Likely with influence from previous technology, but still.

 

Terminator Armor? Another modification/extrapolation.

 

Even if you buy the idea that the Imperium couldn't reverse engineer the engines from the STC (which is very questionable), the BA still owe the STC to the Mechanicus (it's Imperial law) and the fact that they haven't shared something so ridiculously useful with other Space Marine Chapters makes them look selfish at best.

 

Overcharged Engines made sense because they were a modification made by the Chapter because they were a little crazy about reaching CC. It made sense for other people not to have them (well, some sense). Lucifer Engines are a no-downsides improvement, and thus make the BA into selfish jerks who won't share.

[Brother Weasel]

Overcharged Engines made sense because they were a modification made by the Chapter because they were a little crazy about reaching CC. It made sense for other people not to have them (well, some sense). Lucifer Engines are a no-downsides improvement, and thus make the BA into selfish jerks who won't share.

 

they cost more points.

 

and yes, they are selfish jerks who don't share, we didn't pass sharing in pre-school, we were great at nap time though.

[Plague Angel]

I'm not seeing the disagreement, honestly, Octavulg. Unless I wasn't clear what I meant by "justification."

 

Other Chapters cannot use the Baal Predator because the Blood Angels won't hand over the template. Stubborn, selfish, illegal? Yes, sure, guilty. Not saying it was the right thing to do. Just saying that there's a legitimate story reason why other chapters can't have it. There's more involved than just "Assault cannon on a predator, how come we never thought of that."

[Octavulg]

Plague Angel:

 

For the engines, yes. For the assault-cannon-on-a-Predator bit, not really. Space Marines have already done Assault-Cannons-on-a-Land Raider, Lascannons-on-a-Predator, and Assault-Cannons-on-a-Razorback. I don't think adding Assault-Cannons-on-a-Predator to their repertoire is that tricky.

 

Though I would argue that an Assault Cannon on a Predator is much less useful without the speediness, and thus there is a decent reason for it.

 

* * *

 

Brother Weasel:

 

they cost more points.

 

I meant in-universe downsides. :D