Best Razorback Loadouts

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So I'll be commencing serious work on my Fire Angels here soon. The fluff on them from IA9 says that their homeworld can turn out Rhino-pattern chasses at an astounding rate, so in my fluff-based army building, I decided to focus on flooding the field with as many of them as I can and still produce a decent army list. At 2000 points, the list I built has two Rhinos, three Razorbacks, a Predator, and a Vindicator, but I'm struggling to decide on weapons for the 'Backs

 

So, the three 'Backs. One is carrying the Chapter Master and his Ferrum-pattern Honor Guards (shameless plug; thanks for the name Idaho!). One is carrying five Sternguard toting some combi-weapons. And the last one was bought as a transport for a quad-missile Dev squad, and is intended not to carry anyone, but instead rush forward into range and start blasting without worrying about someone being inside.

 

So which variants are best suited here? I know that las/plas turrets are quite popular hereabouts, but they don't seem to fit stylistically (new chapter lacking lots of relics and "old" tech like plasma) or conceptually. I can see using one as the empty Dev 'Back, but I can't shake the feeling that the heavy flamer or assault cannon turrets would fit better with the Honor Guard and Sternguard since they need to get real close real quick anyway.

 

So. Any ideas?

[DarkGuard]

Las plas is very popular around here, and I feel a lot of people would say that if you're spending points for a Razorback then you should go las plas. However, I like the assault cannon, and there's nothing wrong with the heavy bolter, I suppose it comes down to the points you have spare, and the rest of your army. Are you already loaded up on long-range anti-tank? If not then the Dev squad at least should take a las plas, or perhaps, more suitably, a TL-lascannon turret.

 

If you've got all the long-range anti-tank you need, and want more of a punch then go for the assault cannon, and it can take out tanks from close up anyway. I certainly feel that perhaps the assault cannon beats the las plas for close up, although the TL-plasma gun is still nice, and the las plas has more versatility. And of course, there's nothing wrong with the heavy bolter, and its cheap. I'd suggest that perhaps you should magnetize them if you're not sure, could help later with swapping out. Or you could show us your full list, that could help make a decision.

[Wildfire]

Searchy is your friend.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Searchy is your friend.

 

Not really. Everything I searched was "las/plas this" and "las/plas that." I want opinions on the other turrets, too. And besides, Searchy never invited me to his birthday party or bought me a beer, so he's obviously not my friend. :)

 

 

DG, thanks for the reply. I was bouncing back and forth on the assault cannons and heavy flamers. The HFs go well with the Honor Guard I think; they have to get quite close to pull off an assault from out of the 'Back anyway, so they will be up in someone's grill regardless. The assault cannons I like because of their versatility; they can chew infantry or Rend light armor.

 

Here's the list, though. Now that I look at it, it might be a touch short on swinging richards...

 

 

Chapter Master with arty armor, RB, SS, meltabombs

 

Librarian (stock) with Null Zone and Might of the Ancients

 

Honor Guard x4 with 3x RBs and Banner

and a Razorback (listed with one of the 35 pt turrets) with extra armor

 

Sternguard x5 with PW, 1x meltabombs, 2x combi-meltas, 2x combiflamers

and a Razorback (listed with one of the 35 pt turrets) with extra armor

 

Tactical Squad (full) with PW, meltagun, and a free heavy (still deciding)

and a Rhino with exta armor

 

Tactical Squad (full) with PW, meltagun, and a free heavy (still deciding)

and a Rhino with exta armor

 

Devastator Squad (full) with 4x MLs

and a Razorback with las/plas turret and extra armor

 

Predator with AC turret and las sponsons, dozer blade, and Chronus

 

Vindicator with siege shield with extra armor

 

Totals at 2000 points exactly. So I've got some long-range AT in the Heavy slots -- four missile launchers, an autocannon, and three lascannons (counting the one on the Dev 'Back). The rest of it is short-range (melta and bombs). I'm going to rely on the Vindicator and Predator to take early hits while the HG and SG rush forward to optimum fighting positions, and the Tacs to go sit on objectives. Like I said though, looking at it again, I feel like I'm short on bodies so I might revisit this and squeeze in another Tactical Squad somewhere. I can pull Chronus to make some free points easily enough... hmmm.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Your list is a bit short ranged, but can still pack quite a punch if you play your cards right.

back on topic, for the Devastators I would make their 'backs Lascannons as it is the longest range weapon the thing can take (I'm pretty sure, anyway.)

For Honour Guard, you can use either the Heavy Flamer or the Assault Cannon, your pick (ass-cannon can kill stuff at longer range's which is pretty helpful, Heavy Flamer is only really good against hordes and such, but you'll taking your Guard to hordes anyway, so ypur pick)

For the Sternguard, I like the Stronos like a lot of other people here (Las/Plas), and would highly recomend it. Otherwise, depending on the Sterguard's role, you could use Assualt cannon's if you'd like.

My 2 cents

[DarkGuard]

About the Razorback turrets, I feel that assault cannons would be the best option. I know that las plas is best used in spam, but I feel its best used in spam on multiple Razorbacks which aren't advancing, whilst yours are. The assault cannon can mince infantry and tanks, and looks cool, plus it doesn't suffer from the short range of the flamers. That being said, I will say again that heavy bolters would not be bad. You're paying 70pts for weapons that may not be used, on AV11 tanks. If you're using a Razorback primarily as a transport, I feel that heavy bolters are better, as you still get some cheap firepower, but you don't have to worry about wasting it. If you want to upgrade, I'd go with the assault cannons, especially if it fits into fluffy reasons, but for me it is a toss up between assault cannons and las plas.

 

About the list, you have a lot of points eaten up in upgrades which IMO aren't worth it. You've pretty given nearly all your tanks extra armour. I know extra armour is handy to keep moving, but for its points cost it's not worth ignoring 1/6th of the vehicle damage table. If you were to take it off everything except the Vindicator you've saved yourself 75pts. You don't need the dozer blade on the Pred either, it shouldn't be moving, so that's 80pts saved now.

 

Onto the fleshy mortals, I feel you've got enough guys to hold. Things could get sticky with your Tactical squads in 5 objective games, but they should pull through. If you want to use them with meltaguns I'd suggest missile launchers to give them range, and it makes them better to combat squad if you have to. Personally I prefer flamers and multi-meltas for midfield, but that's a personally choice. However, I'm not sure about the power weapons, is that a personal preference or fluffy choice? IMO the only upgrades Tactical sergeants should get are combi-weapons and meltabombs. If you were to take them off, and replace with a combi-melta you've now saved 90pts. The Sternguard as well should ideally be paired with a power fist if you want a combat upgrade, and if you take the meltabombs of the Chapter Master you can pay for it, you should be using your relic blade against armour. If the Libby is riding with the Sternguard I feel you'll get more use out of the Avenger than MoA, and I would prefer a single heavy flamer to two combi-flamers in a 5 man squad, but then you do sacrifice a boltgun.

 

So with 90pts, you could take another Tactical squad, and give them the Dev squad's transport. All they have to do is stay in it on an objective. Or if you drop Chronus you could take two MM/HF Speeders (if you don't mind using non-Rhino chassis vehicles), and lascannon for the Dev squad (to take advantage of the signum). Or if you stick with heavy bolters on two of the Razorbacks you can all of the above instead of the lascannon. Sorry, a bit off topic I know, but my views.

 

On topic though, I feel that if you're planning on using Razorback upgrades, it depends on the list. By the sounds of it you're rushing the Sternguard and HG forward, so the assault cannon may be the better option. On the other hand, if you weren't going to rush them forward then the las plas would be better, lending itself better to a reaction force role, as they can sit back and snipe with the las, and then use the plas when rushing forward. I suppose you could proxy and see what works best for the first few games.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Right, so, I'll take this in order.

 

1.) Extra armor and dozer blades. Point cost comparisons to previous edition Rhinos aside, I come from an Eldar background where the ability to move, reliably, every turn is often one of the keys to victory. Sure, its not such a big deal with Space Marines, but there are some units that I absolutely refuse to allow to be stationary. I can countenance the XA coming off of the Rhinos and the Dev 'Back, but the other two need it because they are designed to move forward, fast as they can, and deliver their cargo to the front lines quickly. The Predator has a dozer blade as a bit of an after-thought; I figured I'd try to keep it moving through cover to pull a save against fast melta, but you're probably right that it isn't really necessary.

 

2.) Power weapons on sergeants. That's a stylistic, fluff choice. The Fire Angels encourage the use of swords and blade-mastery, and their swords are symbols of their faith and foci for prayers to the Big E. I figured it just made sense that, as a symbol of rank, sergeants and veterans would each carry a power blade. And besides, every one of my Iron Hands sergeants -- including the Sternguard -- have powerfists so I figured I'd try something new.

 

I'll take a look at your suggestions though and tweak it some more. I do want another scoring unit in there, after all. As for the Razorback turrets, I'm leaning towards assault cannons now; they really do seem like the best short-range generalist weapon but we'll see. I do like heavy bolters and feel they're underrated, so we'll see what I can come up with.

[DarkGuard]

1) I can understand the idea of wanting to keep at least all your more powerful units moving, and so if you have the points spare then 30pts to keep your Sternguard and Honour Guard going to where you want them to be is a good investment. However, I'd certainly drop it on everything else, and only give it to the Vindy if you have the points spare.

 

2) If the power weapons are a stylistic, fluffy choice then by all means keep them. They will certainly make Marines better in combat, and you're able to combat infantry while the meltagun takes tanks apart. With the Sternguard, will you be keeping the boltgun for the special ammo, or will you got for the bolt pistol for an extra attack? And it always is nice to try something new.

 

I also like the assault cannon a lot, and it has done well for me in the games that I have played it, although I only will on forward Razorbacks. However, there are times when I need to take the heavy bolter just to free the points, choice is the good thing. I respect you a lot for sticking with non las plas turrets, and sticking with power weapons, due to them being the fluffier thing. It has me thinking that I should do the same, ditch Vulkan and my Sternguard, and instead go for my Captain and combat Command squad :D.

[Arkios]

Hmm... sorry if this is old news, but I was just reading through the Main Rule Book FAQ on the GW website and came across this for the first time:

 

Q: When a Damaged – Weapon Destroyed result is rolled

and a weapon is destroyed are any built-in, combi or coaxial

weapons attached to it also destroyed? (p61)

A: Yes.

 

So according to this, Las/Plas Razorbacks are no more resilient that any other Razorback variant.

[DarkGuard]

You are correct, and attached weapons are lost in a single weapon destroyed result. So when a Dreadnought loose his DCCW, he looses his heavy flamer or storm bolter as well.

 

However, you are incorrect about the las/plas Razorback. First of all, the unit entry lists them as having a lascannon and a twin-linked plasma gun. They're not built in, they are two separate weapons.

 

To back this up, here's a quote from the most recent Space Marine FAQ:

 

Q: If a Razorback armed with a lascannon and twin-linked

plasma gun suffers a weapon destroyed result, does it

destroy both weapons or just one? (77)

A: Only one weapon – either the lascannon or the twinlinked plasma gun.

 

So in short, las plas Razorbacks are more resilient than other Razorbacks, and can suffer more weapon destroyed results before they stop shooting (one more) :).

[Arkios]

Ah ok. I was thinking they were counted as "co-axial" weapons, but now after looking at the codex again, they are indeed entirely separate weapons.

 

Thanks for the correction!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I never even thought about the las/plas that way! ...more food for thought! Then again, we'll be starting a Badab War league or campaign or some such soon, so this whole issue might not be an issue anymore, since I'll be using Tarnus Vale and he gives Rhinos & Razorback extra armor for free. And works best in a Phobos Land Raider. Hmmmm....

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ah GW does it again...releases an amazing option and no parts for it (which is weird as the las-plas used to be around) but going by some of this logic, wouldn't the twin linked las/heavybolter/flamer/assault cannon variants just become a single of aforementioned weapons if it suffered a weapon destroyed?

 

It seems like they SHOULD since we're paying the same points for all the same loadouts and technically none of the weapons are on their own >.>

 

I know i'm being picky, I just dislike to see certain things providing an advantage I deem unfair (though maybe its the reward for converting a las/plas)

[Azoriel]

Ah GW does it again...releases an amazing option and no parts for it (which is weird as the las-plas used to be around) but going by some of this logic, wouldn't the twin linked las/heavybolter/flamer/assault cannon variants just become a single of aforementioned weapons if it suffered a weapon destroyed?

 

Las-plas would still come out ahead in such a case - the plasmagun is twin-linked!

[Ming]

1. If going razorback way, go all the way in groups of 5, and pack each vehicle with 6 guys (for 30 marines, 5 as sergeants). It helps make sure you leave no points on the table to make sure the MSUs round to a factor of 5. Only issue is getting a ride for the HQ/IC (unless they are in razorback #6)

 

2. Lasplas is probably the best weapons platform for a razorback - it counts as 2 weapons, so is more resilient in a way to suppressive fire (you have to get more "non wrecking hits" on it to make it combat ineffective).

 

3. Taking a razorback essentially eliminates the need for a squad to take a HW/SW, but does not eliminate the need for assault weapons like melta or flamers. In "normal marines" this means taking a sergeant with some kind of combiweapon for use when he dismounts (in adition to either a PW or PF).

 

4. If using a codex that allows 2+ special weapons in a tactical squad (like SW, BA), might as well take rhinos instead, since you will be able to fire those weapons on the move within their constraints (HWs cannot fire if the vehicle moved, assault and rapid fire weaps can fire if the vehicle moved 6 inches or less, S4 weapons can always fire to 12 inches). Probably a cheaper way to get more troops or assault upgrades in the mix if you fit in this case. For example - bet a list of BAs in rhinos backed by Baal Preds is more cost effective - and fluffy - than a MSU razorspam list - as they do their assauult job much better with more marines than with some weapons that constrain how fast they move in addition to having less marines to charge out with. Same goes for SWs.

 

5. Extra armor and dozer blades typically are not needed - your vehicles are often torrented enough with AT or suppressive fire that they skip right over the benefits the extra upgrades make. Would be point wise better to add HKMs to every vehicle for an extra punch. Never take a vehicle upgrade that does not improve the mission profile and damage it can cause. Example - rhino coming in from reserves with a ML tac squad - the ML cannot fire - but the HKM can. Example - you set up first and go fiirst - or go second and hold in reserve - and the opponent has deployed units in your LOS - an extra 5 HKMs on turn 1 might mean you have suppressed or wrecked 2-3 of his transports or damaged a key fast attack unit or priority unit when otherwise it would not have happened. "Dozer blades don't kill - Marines with missiles kill". On the other hand - if you play all the time in dense terrain, maybe the dozer blades make sense for you.

 

6. 2 major conversions out there for las-plas razorbacks - (1) replace a LC with two plasmaguns on the TLLC turret - requires some minor kitbashing to do and finesse to keep the plasma guns aligned (and of course going to a source for extra PGs); and (2) magnetize one lascannon so it can be replaced with a searchlight on the TLLC turret, and double pintlee mount 2 plasma guns - again, difficult to do BUT some well known BA players love the advantage of having the TLPGs on a pintle at the front of the vehicle for the EXTRA 2-3 inch range.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm not an avid Razorbacker, to be honest. I own one, but rarely field it. It's an old-school Stronos-pattern (las/plas), and I typically purchase it as a ride for an all-plasma Command Squad.

 

Here's how I personally feel the various turrets are defined, role-wise:

 

Heavy Bolter: bog standard, el-cheapo version. This is the version you take when you're just taking a cheap ride for a small squad. Twin-linked heavy bolters will put at least one wound on anything T4 or T5, but won't make a huge game impact. The heavy bolter ends up being a "first volley" or "last ditch" weapon. By that I mean you open the shootingphase with it to knock odd wounds off a unit, or you end the phase with it, hoping to clean up what your other shooting has started. If you really wanted to, you could upgrade the tank with a storm bolter, and have a mini-dakka machine.

 

Twin-las: long-range armor buster. Twin-linked BS4 is golden. S9 makes transports cry, and can keep most AV13+ tanks' heads down. Even a Shaken result against those AV13-14 armor units is great.

 

Twin-assault cannon: midfield bully. Again, twin-linked BS4 is golden. You're throwing a nice group of wounds at most midfield units, with chances to Rend both vehicles and troopers. it's got double the volume of fire of the plasma section of the Stronos, which is actually more valuable against Guard, Nids, and Orks. Less valuable against MEQ. Again, add a stormbolter for a dakkamachine.

 

Twin-heavy flamer: cover buster. The heavy flamers are so fun, but when mounted on an AV11 chassis...they don't typically get to grips with the foe. If you're running a Khan list, I'd consider them as they can instantly reach the soft underbelly via outflanking.

 

Stronos (las/plas): all-rounder. A single lascannon shot from long range doesn't have the insurance of the twin-las version, but can still be effective with BS4. Luck can turn on you in a heartbeat and have all your las miss in a single turn, though. :P

The twinned plasma is ok, but it's still only one or two shots. At the ranges you'll be firing that at, it's not going to wipe units off the board.

I really only like this version because it packs a little more plasma into my all-plas Command Squad loadout.

 

I prefer the twin-linked, single-weapon versions over the las/plas. I'd prefer to hit more, over having one extra Weapon Destroyed result.

[DarkGuard]

That's a good review, and quite helpful, as I'd have no idea on the best way to do a Razorspam list, but thanks for describing that it's basically multiples of 5 with las plas, perhaps some other vehicular support? Just one thing I want to pick up on about embarked units, sorry for being picky:

 

... (HWs cannot fire if the vehicle moved, assault and rapid fire weaps can fire if the vehicle moved 6 inches or less, S4 weapons can always fire to 12 inches).

 

I'm afraid this isn't true. While vehicles can always fire S4 weapons provided they can fire something else normally (discounting PotMS), the same doesn't apply to passengers. Passengers always follow their own movement rules as far as firing from a vehicle goes. So stationary they can fire heavy weapons, single shot rapid fire, as well as double shot rapid fire, assault and pistols. 6" they can fire double shot rapid fire, assault and pistols. Over 6" they can fire nothing, no matter what strength. You might actually be meaning to say that, its just the way that quote is phrased seems to say otherwise, sorry.

 

I like the conversion suggestions for the las plas. I went for the first one, replacing the lascannon. I do feel you could combine them, by magnetizing the plasma weapons to where the lascannon would be, and then being able to swap, would be quite cool, and also allows weapon destroyed results.

 

@ShinyRhino: I would agree with you there on those roles, and a lot of the term some people may decide that a Rhino's top hatch is worth more than a heavy bolter (like the ability to fire out of it). However, I still like the heavy bolter, and the assault cannon and las plas. Though to be honest, the couple of times I've used las plas it was underwhelming, perhaps you need volume of fire? Regardless, I'd still take it over TL-lascannon, in my mind the TL-plasma gun is well worth loosing a re-roll on the lascannon. If I were to use my plasma Command squad, I would try and fit the las plas turret on their transport, something about 5 plasma shots is very appealing.

 

The assault cannon, on the other hand, I view as pure gold. It is fantastic. So versatile, so dangerous, with a brilliant rate of fire and very accurate. I would agree with you that in midfield, it is the best weapon, with a 30" threat radius and the ability to threaten anything in the game, although its focus is non-power armour armies.