Bolt16 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 So I've been thinking (always dangerous as my fiancee would say) and I reckon that good old Lion El'Johnson was not so good and maybe was the only son of the Emperor to actually be a bad egg......How you may ask did I reach such a conclusion. Well of the Primarchs that turned to Chaos none of them were bad, they had insecurities that were manipulated by Chaos and Horus. Even Night Haunter and Angron I don't think were bad as after what the Emperor did to Angron, Angron was hardly likely to forgive him and be a loyal son, Night Haunter was just a product of his life on Nostramo. In fact all of the Primarchs who turned were either products of the Emperor's inability to be a father, products of the life they had on their planets, and manipulated by Chaos and Horus. So now on to the Lion - well he was cunning, devious, ambitious, disloyal, ruthless and dishonourable. One could argue that he was just a product of his childhood but ultimately he was taken in by the Order and taught their honourable, virtuous knightly qualities. He was embraced by an Order of champions who acted with loyalty and honour who looked after the populace and acknowledged both the importance of customs and experience. And yet the Lion turned his back on this when he was reunited with his father he became ambitious and calculating - he waited to see which horse to back in the Heresy to a degree and when he did choose sides he did it to gain personal advantage rather than loyalty. He ruthlessly sent the veterans from Terra back to Caliban ignoring their experience and paranoid over their loyalty to him. He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned. I can see no reason for his behaviour other than him being all those things above. He has no excuse and so this is why I think were this a comic book, or story for children he would most fit the role of the baddie! What do other people think? Am I being unfair to the Lion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He's pragmatic, paranoid, socially retarded and ambitious but not full blown evil. Actually from TFH he is the only primarch who proved to be inconvertible by the Chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Yes and no. The Lion gets a bad rap, but he really is a creature of his nature. I think that much can be said about any of the Primarchs. What people tend to forget is that in a similar fashion to Curze, Lion El'Jonson was pretty far removed from his humanity by the time Luther found him, and he never really made it completely back from that especially given that he was inhuman and he recognized that from the beginning. All his actions point to a man so divorced from the concept of empathy that he probably never even reckoned with it in any of his calculations. You could almost call it sociopathy, and it was that singular blind spot that made him both a tactical genius and a poor candidate for the title of Warmaster. Whether or not he recognized that flaw in himself is debatable; I like to think he didn't, because that makes what happened later on Caliban so much more real. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 And yet the Lion turned his back on this when he was reunited with his father he became ambitious and calculating - he waited to see which horse to back in the Heresy to a degree and when he did choose sides he did it to gain personal advantage rather than loyalty. First point: No, that's not actually what happened. He ruthlessly sent the veterans from Terra back to Caliban ignoring their experience and paranoid over their loyalty to him. He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned. I can see no reason for his behaviour other than him being all those things above. Second point: Jonson was growing up in the wild. Curze was also growing up alone, but at least in a human city. A criminal infested city, but not in the wild with chaos beasts roaming around. Also, at the point where the Dark Angels arrived at Terra, Jonson had already developed the rival/friendship with Russ. So everyone saying that Jonson was not a loyal Priamarch at this point are basically also accusing Russ of bad judgement of character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I dont think he was a bad Primarch - just a miserable git to others and aloof to his own legion at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I don't think Lion is bad. His motives, as well as the whole DA background, are shrouded in mystery, so it is unable to definitely say, what Lion wanted. It was mentioned in Fallen Agnels that he didn't feel like explaining his orders and motives behind them to his subordinates - he was the strategist, and they were executors. Whether he really waited for the winner of the Heresy be defined or not, is also hard to say - that's the point of view of certain character and hence it is subjective opinion. What people tend to forget is that in a similar fashion to Curze, Lion El'Jonson was pretty far removed from his humanity by the time Luther found him, and he never really made it completely back from that especially given that he was inhuman and he recognized that from the beginning. While this is true, in my opinion, Curze witnessed too much of humanity (particularly its dark side) and was spoiled by all the atrocities, ills and nightmares humans can create by their deeds. And this can not be attributed to Lion. He was raised by the knights, and without seeing "the dark side" of humanity he should have all those knightly ideals imprinted in his mind and personality. Maybe this is where his sociopath nature lies - he just do not expect people to act other than the knights taught him, that people require the explanation of why they should act this way and not the other. Just my $0,02 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Nah. Disagree with the OP. Not least on the idea that none of the other Primarchs were evil. Why isn't someone like Lorgar, or Perturabo, or Horus for pete's sake, evil? Yeah, I get it, all the guys who turned had disappointments in their life, horrible things happen, or had people try and lead them astray. I get that they have flaw and insecurities. So, that absolves them of any responsibility for their actions? Don't buy that personally. Everyone has a choice as to how they respond to things that happen to them. What separated the traitors from the loyalists, in many cases, was that they chose to respond in a selfish manner rather than do what they knew was right. The Lion wasn't a particularly nice guy. But I'll hold off judgement on whether he was an evil guy/bad egg til we see how his story arc pans out - we know the end result, but not the 'how'. We have one account, that was an interpretation from a non-neutral party. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I wrote a Dark Angels story in the forthcoming Age of Darkness anthology, called Savage Weapons. I don't say this to advertise, but because it's actually relevant. The question of the Lion's ultimate loyalty comes up quite significantly, because I'd kinda wanted to settle it for good. I doubt it will settle it, but every little helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 A D-B shall enlighten us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Everyone has a reason to be bad.. even if its as lame as boredom. No one starts off evil. I would say the Lion is all about survival, because at his core he is still the feral boy surviving in the woods. That may make him callous and whatever, but not evil. Leman Russ is obviously the born evil one. Being you know, a mutant freak, hypocrite extraordinaire and master of the alleged executioner Legion. A little known fact is that Lemon Russ ate small children for breakfast every day. Just kidding, but you know he would if the emprah told him to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned. However, Russ did walk up and punch him in the face(Perhaps for good reason as he was cussing the lion for leaving their flank unprotected, but the Lion may not have agreed with Russ's assessment). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorns Padawan Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Am very much looking forward to what mr A D-B has to say about the DA in his forth coming book! Although a staunch IF player, the DA have always intrigued me especially after reading Gav Thorpes Angels of Darkness. Since that lovely little twist Astellan has regarding the Lion just waiting has always played on my mind. The Lion was in the wild yet on his own for the younger years of his life, where as the Night Haunter was also on his own but for all his life growing up. What I always have wondered is what if the Lion like KC and was also not found by people but just raised himself, what would he be like? I think like KC, he would be void of empathy & just as cold having had no 'connection' with people. All Primarchs who were raised by cultures were molded by that culture somehow. As the Lion was found not straight from birth, you wonder what effect did being on his own have on him?? My own honest opinion is that if he grew up totally on his own like KC then he would have become just plain ruthless. He showed loyalty towards the Callianite Astartes & not the Terrans as he grew up with the Knights. Don't think he would have been so predjudiced towards the Terrans if he grew up without the company of the Knights. Just my two bobs worth :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I doubt the Lion was actually evil. He may have seemed a bit... shady in nature but I'm pretty sure he was loyal. He was after all raised by a noble Order of knights on Caliban. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I dont think he was a bad Primarch - just a miserable git to others and aloof to his own legion at times. What, not even Angron or Perturabo? Also, I think most of the bad reputation the Lion has comes from the novel Gav Thrope wrote focusing upon the Fallen several years ago. That and fanfiction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Would someone give me more details on why we think the Lion is such a donkey's bootie in spoiler tags? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 While this is true, in my opinion, Curze witnessed too much of humanity (particularly its dark side) and was spoiled by all the atrocities, ills and nightmares humans can create by their deeds. And this can not be attributed to Lion. He was raised by the knights, and without seeing "the dark side" of humanity he should have all those knightly ideals imprinted in his mind and personality. Maybe this is where his sociopath nature lies - he just do not expect people to act other than the knights taught him, that people require the explanation of why they should act this way and not the other. Just my $0,02 Except there was nothing in the Lion to be imprinted upon. Curze saw humanity as beasts; the Lion saw himself as a beast. Fundamentally different, but the end result was the same. One saw the dark side of humanity and made himself darker; the other one never saw himself as human, so why should anything of humanity have ever been instilled? Luther did his best, I'm sure, but the damage was long done, and in light of the knowledge that Jonson simply wasn't human, no amount of chivalric teaching was going to change what he saw in the mirror. Konrad Curze saw humanity and hated it; The Lion never even felt that much because to do so would be to acknowledge it in himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He's pragmatic, paranoid, socially retarded and ambitious but not full blown evil. I thought you were describing me for a minute there... :D Even Primarchs we consider typically evil, like Kurze, are not when you examine the facts closely enough.. In fact, I don't think that any of them were actually bad, per se, they were just flawed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Tates Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Always wondered actually, why did Perterabo turn? What was so bad about his life serving the Emperor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Perturbo got no credit and his legion was split up alot to garrison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 What do other people think? Am I being unfair to the Lion? Just a little. Despite generally being rubbish, the Dark Angel HH books (so far) have shown that the Lion is utterly loyal to the Emperor. He acts without hesitation in fighting against the traitors (although yes, ironically, he hands the seige weapons over to Perturabo - not knowing he is a traitor). The idea that he waited during the Heresy (and in fact all of the questioning of the Lions loyalty) is purely based on an unsubstantiated suggestion that comes from the Fallen Angel Astelan (in Angels of Darkness) who clearly isn't an reliable source and which makes no sense from what we know - that the Lion travelled alongside Russ back to Terra (unless you think Russ was waiting to see who won as well). Reference the "Lion and the Wolf" it is Russ that strikes the first blow, because Jonson enacts his battleplan which prevents Russ from claiming the glory (whilst storming the keep with relatively few casualties in the bargain). And the Lion knocks Russ out because he see's Russ' first strike as treacherous. Also, I think you're far too kind to Angron/Perturabo/Kurze. In fact, it's the Loyalist Primarchs like the Lion who prove that you can't blame them turning traitor entirely on their "upbringing". I mean, really, I think it's a bit of stretch for superhuman demi-Gods to claim that their "Father" (none of whom really know him as that in the literal sense, being fully matured by the time they meet) is the sole cause for their fall into darkness. I think they have to take at least some responsibility for their own actions... Looking forward to Savage Weapons though, I'm sure it's going to be a lot better than Descent of/Fallen Angels were. The only question is by what factor of 10. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 This is also relatively new in humanities dealings with Chaos. Most of the Primarchs wouldn't have a total concept of just who they were siding with. Chances are they thought they would be at the vanguard of a revolution against a corrupt master. Nothing unusual there, given the Western world's love of underdog revolutionaries I think many people could understand that. For me, why I love the loyalists so much is because I've always loved reading stories about the Americans who were loyal to the crown during the AWfI. How mad would you be if all your neighbors turned against the King? Now grimdark the hell out of it. Loyalist 40K in a nutshell. However, I also love the more romanticized version of the ACW and tales of southerners fighting against what they viewed as a corrupt and distant government who didn't care about the people or their troubles. Good stuff all around. Civil Wars are always the most intense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Civil Wars are named with irony in mind. Fixed :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2633471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 While this is true, in my opinion, Curze witnessed too much of humanity (particularly its dark side) and was spoiled by all the atrocities, ills and nightmares humans can create by their deeds. And this can not be attributed to Lion. He was raised by the knights, and without seeing "the dark side" of humanity he should have all those knightly ideals imprinted in his mind and personality. Maybe this is where his sociopath nature lies - he just do not expect people to act other than the knights taught him, that people require the explanation of why they should act this way and not the other. Just my $0,02 Except there was nothing in the Lion to be imprinted upon. Curze saw humanity as beasts; the Lion saw himself as a beast. Fundamentally different, but the end result was the same. One saw the dark side of humanity and made himself darker; the other one never saw himself as human, so why should anything of humanity have ever been instilled? Luther did his best, I'm sure, but the damage was long done, and in light of the knowledge that Jonson simply wasn't human, no amount of chivalric teaching was going to change what he saw in the mirror. Konrad Curze saw humanity and hated it; The Lion never even felt that much because to do so would be to acknowledge it in himself. I see your point, and it makes sense to me. Still in my opinion he's hardly evil, and it's unlikely that he considered joining with Horus, had Horus won. Surely, he hid his motivation well enough, either because of his inhumanity or not, and he didn't bother to explain his decisions even to his fellow sons (did he also consider them too human?). Yet he acted in humanity's interests - freed Caliban of the Beasts, willingly counter-acted Horus ( and though he finally provided him with the desired siege engines, I doubt he did it deliberately - why fight Sons of Horus and still hand the weapons to his ally, why not simply do not interfere? ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2634303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolt16 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for all the responses great to have such a good debate going. Maybe evil was to harsh but I still think the Lion is not the good guy the other loyal Primarchs are, look at the Angel or Dorn or Corax. No other Primarch upon being found banishes the Terran veterans as quickly or effectively as the Lion and and yet they were good enough to fight at the Emperor's side - they carried his gene-seed. While yes he leads a campaign to rid Caliban of the monsters - he must know there is still a taint in Caliban afterall he has a relationship with the watchers therefore why does he turn his back on Caliban until he suddenly needs it again? Unlike many people I have to confess to loving the Dark Angel HH books and can't wait for the third but boy am I excited at the prospect of Savage Weapons (without turning into too much of a fanboy ADB your one of the best BL writers and can't wait for your next full HH book whenever that comes). Now all I have to do is wait for May until Age of Darkness comes out I officially hate waiting!!! Finally going back to the Lion and the end of the second book: I don't think he has any idea Perturabo has turned and therefore has no idea he is giving the weapons to Horus but fact is he is only giving him the weapons because Perturabo has lied and told the Lion he will back his claim to become Warmaster!! To me when the Galaxy is ripping itself apart this does not seem like the honourable thing a knight would do. Thanks again everyone! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2634339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 That's more accurate than your previous assessment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220576-was-the-lion-the-only-truly-bad-primarch/#findComment-2634353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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