Was the Lion the only truly bad Primarch?

[Razhbad]

I would never consider the Lion evil, i would say that he does not understand others at all. I am guessing that when he punch Russ it was because he thought the Space Wolf was being rude to him after all Russ was laughing at the time.

 

The Lion cannot understand peoples feelings and what is more he is naturally untrusting, developping layers of secrets with his missions.

 

Now this may make the Lion not a good Primarch to get on with, but he is still a great Tactician and brought plenty of worlds into compliance. Now at the moment we do not know for sure if he would have switched sides, but we do know that he was ambitious.

 

All in all my oppinion is that the Lion was loyal to the Emperor, but had no qualms with making himself the Emperors top son.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Lion trying to earn the support of Perturabo was more than likely just a part of his overall plan to fix the galaxy.

 

A part of the whole, not necessarily a matter of honor.

[dynamicspartan]

No other Primarch upon being found banishes the Terran veterans as quickly or effectively as the Lion and and yet they were good enough to fight at the Emperor's side - they carried his gene-seed.

Honestly this still bugs me. In Fallen Angels, I can't remember the exact number, either 500-1000 marines were banished back to Caliban and a good number of them were from Caliban, not just Terra.

 

He may not have been completely trusting of the Terran marines, but he didn't banish them all with a snap of his fingers and they all went home to write sad poetry.

[Brother Styphus]

Bad Primarch? Just badly written.

 

Every bit of fluff regarding the Lion changes dramatically, diluting the character past recognition. What started as a man who lived among the beasts, he was the greatest tactician of all the primarchs, with a win record second only to Horus (who had been around longer and had a larger standing army). He stationed some marines on the home planet, and they grew jealous. The chaotic Luthor nearly killed the Lion, but then realized he was wrong all along.

 

Fast forward and you have the first novel detailing an interrogation of the fallen. El'Jonson is still regarded highly until the revelation that he may have been a cowardly observer to the Heresy.

 

First HH novel for DA comes along and the Lion is portrayed rather well. It wasn't about marines, and people disliked that, but it showcased his inner darkness as well as his tactical genius.

 

Short story is written about the contradicting beliefs of Terran Dark Angels and Caliban Dark Angels. While a good story (the author goes out of his way to point out just how slow space travel really is), the whole thing threw in new contradictions. Lion sent home Caliban warriors for whatever his reasoning (up for debate), but then the terran Astelan was banished for being a diplomat.

 

The second novel comes around, and everything is overdone and irrational. Luthor sees chaos and wishes to harness it. This makes no sense, as even if he had disputes with the Primarch, he had fought beasts before and knew that evil must be ended. The Lion is Aspergertastic, making decisions that are in no way thought out. Fans try to defend him by pointing out his upbringing. While not a socialite, he was first and always a hunter. Instead, you could easily replace the Lion with any crappy Inquisitor or Army commander, and every soldier would be bickering about how incompetent each mission was. Lion provided nothing to the story other than an initial driving point, and the rest was filled in by inconvenient coincidences.

 

Other things diminishing his history would have been outside sources of fluff, or badly planned time lines. As a poster child, people still love and flock to Ultramarines. I'm sure there are now bits of fluff out there stating Roboutte Gullible was in fact the greatest tactician. The Lion's reunion with the Emperor was placed rather late during the Great Crusade, leaving little time for achievements to be accomplished.

 

 

If you don't feel like reading, just know that Lion El'Jonson was never bad. The differing viewpoints and the fan-base's demand to have every secret clearly spelled out for them have ruined the character.

[GooseDaMoose]

Umm I distinctly remember the Lion sending home most, if not all of the old Order's recruits and ONE or TWO Terran marines and then continuing the mission mostly with Terrans and new Space Marines who had never been part of the Orders. I remember, cuz I was always confused as to why he did that. It's like he wanted to distance himself from his old life and start anew with the Legion the Emperor had created for him.

 

Can anyone back me up, or am I remembering completely wrong?

[douglas9521]

I cant say he's even a bad primarch if i've read this thread correctly.I apologise in advance as i havent read all the books of the HH yet and its been a while since i read angels of darkness but this is how it seems to read for me:

The lion is ambitious and a very clever and gifted stratigist(i dont like genius or 'the best' as that is a bit more of an opinion than a fact) He also has no personnel ties with any of his family other than work related shall we say.Now if i get some of the entries in this list am i right in saying that chaos is not understood in 30k as it is in 40k(at least by the higher echelons and need to know people in 40k that is) So when horus rebels its not good vs evil but father vs son. This to me would make a primarch with no ties of real friendship or closeness to either sit on the fence.His inteligence and ambition means he waits to see which side he can get the best deal with.All the other primarchs i know about have reasons to be on one side or the other but the lion to my mind doesnt. I must admit that i dont know anything about perturbo or corax or even vulkan as they still have to be written about in more depth.Ferrus manus in fulgrim gets a good enough dusting to give an idea.As a few people have said here the storys keep changing all the time.One of the side effects of fiction history decided by commitee(the good part being the volume of books so i'll happily live with the slight mismatches here and there)

P.s must apologise for my writing,didnt do well in english so dont know how to properly use punctuation and most of all paragraphs:(So if you made it to the bottom of this without losing the will congrats lol

[chaplain belisarius]

i feel sorry for the fella-gifted, clever but damaged and not a people person...^_^

[Aegnor]

Please please people don't describe the Lion as autistic or having Asperger's. It's inaccurate and kinda trivializes what is a difficult condition. In crudest terms, not having experiences of living humans and lacking an typical emotional base by having an isolated childhood /= having a neurological disorder.

[Marshal Rohr]

Asberger's is a decent way of describing whats wrong with him. Existing in our world by his rules.

[Aegnor]

Except Asperger's already has a definition and that's not it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

They're not saying he actually has it, they're saying that a fitting way of describing his actions is that he displays similarities to someone affected by Aspergers.

[Gv0zD]

I'm currently reading The First Heretic and have found there an interesting moment.

++ Spoiler ++

 

 

After Ingethel showed Argel Tal the Lab where the primarchs were bred, Argel Tal was shown the landing of the several pods to the certain planets. There were 9 pods shown: 8 pods of the traitor primarchs and 1 pod that lands in the forest world, and the child from it has pale skin and black hair as the armor of Ligion he will lead. Obviously, this child is Lion. Now, as Argel Tal was shown only the traitor primarchs, how did Lion appear there as well? Was it because a part of his Legion turned traitors, or because he was traitor himself, but effectively hid it at the end of the Heresy?

 

 

++ End Spoiler ++

Now I should say I'm confused...

[Brother Styphus]

Except he is written that way. When it comes to social situations, he doesn't talk to people. He just acts in a way that he observed how others would talk to each other. This becomes glaringly obvious after his talk with a Tech Magos. He has a full on conversation, but then has to ask Nemiel what actually went on. If he was supposed to come off as an adult who was once a "feral child" then perhaps Mike Lee should have taken a sociology class at a nearby community college.

 

I don't want to think of the Lion as a feral child or as someone with a condition (it isn't trivial if it is used in context and out of the ordinary). Descent of Angels had it right by only having him in the shadows, always on alert. If they had stayed with that portrayal, there would still be an air of mystery to him.

 

 

---edit----

If only your post came before I clicked "new post" GvOzD. That line from the story is another example of how different sources and different authors are adding to Lion El'Jonson's character. It raises the same question, but from a different perspective.

 

Not entirely to the thread, but more to do with your post, why is this the only thing about DA's that authors care about? The Chapter's greatest secret is becoming so commonplace that it's all Dark Angels have. Outside of Kallidus, there is nothing interesting about the DA that isn't related to the Fallen.

 

I do apologize if there is anyone with feral-child or Asperger's syndrome. I do take these seriously, and don't throw around words like these to be hurtful. The Lion is flawed, but that doesn't necessarily make him bad yet. It is a shame to see new struggles for him tacked on with every new fluff source. I'll still defend him as the greatest tactician (as recognized by Leman Russ), counter any chat debate that calls him emo, and continue to paint deathwing in his traditional black colors (screw you Two-heads).

[Billuriye]

 

After Ingethel showed Argel Tal the Lab where the primarchs were bred, Argel Tal was shown the landing of the several pods to the certain planets. There were 9 pods shown: 8 pods of the traitor primarchs and 1 pod that lands in the forest world, and the child from it has pale skin and black hair as the armor of Ligion he will lead. Obviously, this child is Lion. Now, as Argel Tal was shown only the traitor primarchs, how did Lion appear there as well? Was it because a part of his Legion turned traitors, or because he was traitor himself, but effectively hid it at the end of the Heresy?

 

 

Because Lion was on the Chaos' roster but he resisted them somehow. ADB's words.

[Aegnor]

They're not saying he actually has it, they're saying that a fitting way of describing his actions is that he displays similarities to someone affected by Aspergers.

 

In some very limited ways. In other ways he is totally unlike someone with Aspergers. Saying it's a fitting way to describe it is like saying it's fitting to describe someone who is skinny as having anorexia nervosa, or someone who displays a need for things to be organized as having obsessive-compulsive disorder. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a prig or to hijack this thread, and I don't think anyone has said anything intended to make light of the disorder, it is just a personal bugbear in terms of people making misleading references to Aspergers, normally with no ill intention on their part. But I've definitely hijacked this thread enough making that point so shan't say anymore.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Lion was always alone, he grew up alone in the wilds of Caliban and even amongst the order he was alone. Amongst his Brother Primarchs he was alone, it was all he knew and his defence.

 

He learned never to let anyone or anything close, he learned to use his wits and his own skills to survive and that never left him. It's tragic in a way but our pyschology is affected by early childhood and this is reflected in all the Primarchs. The only other Primachs with an upbringinh similar to the Lions where Night Haunter and Russ.

 

Night Haunter grew up around Humans but was alone amongst them and saw only the worst, embracing this and using it to cloak his actions and feelings.

 

Russ started out with a pack of wolves! He learned, ironicly, the concepts of family, companionship and loyalty in an animalistic, pack mentality.

[Trel]

The Lion can's have Asperger's syndrome because it's a condition for humans, not Primarchs. :ph34r: Moreover, the currently accepted symptoms of the condition don't really fit the Lion's behaviors.

 

I don't think any Primarch started out as good or bad. That, perhaps, was the plan of Chaos from the start. If the Emperor was able to raise his sons and give each of them the love and acknowledgement they so desperately craved, then they would have been utterly loyal. By scattering the Primarchs, the gods of Chaos were playing the odds, and half went one way, half went the other.

 

Dorn could have just as easily ended up being like Perturabo, Sanguinius could have easily ended up like Angron, etc.

 

Sure, the Lion was flawed, but all the Primarchs were, except maybe for Horus. Perfection in the Primarchs would have been entirely uninteresting.

 

After thinking about it, though, I don't even think the Lion's problem was inability to read people, or trust people. I think for the Lion, he had a pathological need to control every last variable, including the Marines in his command. He grew up in an environment where nothing was predictable, so when he was given a situation with rules and order, he asserted enough controlling influences to ensure that he was never in a situation beyond his control. All of his schemes were plots within plots, to ensure that should one of his plots be uncovered by someone (and thus be beyond a measure of his control) then he would still have a backup plan.

 

By getting rid of the Terran-born Dark Angels, and the ones who were already indoctrinated in the Calibanite knightly orders, he was ensuring that the Marines around him thought and acted in a fashion entirely predictable to him, since he was the sole source of their training.

[XKhalilX]

forgive me if my timeline is all messed up, its been awhile since i read the DA horus heresy books. Could the reason be why the Lion sent the Terran DA back to Terra was to protect Terra from the heresy, basically saying "Caliban is your home, but Terra is your blood. Defend it." Again I can't remember if at this time it was known about Horus heading for Terra.

[GooseDaMoose]

By getting rid of the Terran-born Dark Angels, and the ones who were already indoctrinated in the Calibanite knightly orders,

 

He didn't get rid of the Terran-born Dark Angels! He got rid of the Calibanites! Arrrgh.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Because Lion was on the Chaos' roster but he resisted them somehow. ADB's words.

 

I wonder if those Watchers had anything to do with it...

[Brother Styphus]

By getting rid of the Terran-born Dark Angels, and the ones who were already indoctrinated in the Calibanite knightly orders,

 

He didn't get rid of the Terran-born Dark Angels! He got rid of the Calibanites! Arrrgh.

 

 

Seconded. He returned Calibanites because he saw the taint of Caliban in their hearts or something. Astelan was an exception who felt out of place on the Lion's home world for a time.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Seconded. He returned Calibanites because he saw the taint of Caliban in their hearts or something. Astelan was an exception who felt out of place on the Lion's home world for a time.

 

That might be giving him too much credit. He could very well have returned them just from the sheer disdain he had that they weren't as "good" or "advanced" as the Terrans who had "conquered" Caliban without so much as a shot fired. If Jonson suffers from the sociopathy I attribute to him, it's not a long shot to see his banishing the Calibanites as him simply ridding himself of a "lesser" species of Dark Angel; the "old & busted" being replaced by "the new hotness" as it were. Also, there might have been something in Jonson's instincts telling him that he might be viewed as an "inferior" Primarch by his Terran-born Legion for having such long past connections to the more "backwater" Caliban side, whose presence would be a constant reminder of that fact.

[Barakiel]

The idea that he waited during the Heresy (and in fact all of the questioning of the Lions loyalty) is purely based on an unsubstantiated suggestion that comes from the Fallen Angel Astelan (in Angels of Darkness) who clearly isn't an reliable source

 

Exactly. Most of the unfounded accusations against Lion El´Jonson are based upon the words and ravings of a disillousioned and for sure never trustworthy traitor.

[Aegnor]

Jonson may have simply returned Luther and the Calibanites to their home planet to ensure his 'base' was secure. Maybe he discerned something was in the works and wanted to keep those he didn't trust close to him, while ensuring the future of the Legion was protect by having those he trusted the most oversee the recruitment and security of the world. He certainly may have had reservations about putting Terrans in charge of Caliban given how they initially treated the world Because of his tendency to see others as chess pieces to be maneuvered, he didn't take into account how those he relegated to this role might react as time went on.

[Gv0zD]

Jonson may have simply returned Luther and the Calibanites to their home planet to ensure his 'base' was secure. Maybe he discerned something was in the works and wanted to keep those he didn't trust close to him, while ensuring the future of the Legion was protect by having those he trusted the most oversee the recruitment and security of the world. He certainly may have had reservations about putting Terrans in charge of Caliban given how they initially treated the world Because of his tendency to see others as chess pieces to be maneuvered, he didn't take into account how those he relegated to this role might react as time went on.

 

This is the most logical explanation. But still, Lion sent Israfael alongside Calibanites to guard it. He could promote Zahariel to head Librarian on Caliban, thus ensuring Luther will trust him. But he put in charge Terran Israfael, and we know how it ended. I've no idea why...