Was the Lion the only truly bad Primarch?

[Brother Styphus]

It's a good theory, except that the Lion didn't send them home because he wanted more recruits. He left them there to rot.

 

You know it's personal when your best friend doesn't return your calls for 53 years.

[Aegnor]

Whats the definitive source that letting them rot was the Lion's intent? As opposed to their interpretation?

[BrotherHostower]

It's a good theory, except that the Lion didn't send them home because he wanted more recruits. He left them there to rot.

 

You know it's personal when your best friend doesn't return your calls for 53 years.

 

Possible SPOILER alert (just in case)

 

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't return my "best friend's" calls if he tried to get me nuked either ;) that being said, I have a terrible feeling that sending Luther and the others back that he couldn't out and out trust by looking at them, (and this is entirely speculation) might have been a test of loyalty. In the vein that, if they can follow my orders until I decide they've done it enough, then they've proven their loyalty, and in some cases, may even redeem blatant failures. Astelan (if he's to be believed) disobeyed a direct order, and that's why he's sent back. All we know for sure of "sendbacks" is Astelan's chapter (terran supposedly, and only if Astelan is to be believed in Angels of Darkness) and the half chapter that was with Luther and Jonson at Sarosh. We don't really know if he sends back any others for sure. Could also be as simple as you've given me a reason to distrust you, if I can't trust you, I can't trust you to fight beside you, so you can go home, where it's safe and secure and you can't mess anything up, and others who I do trust can watch you.

 

It would really appear that he sends away the folks who question his decisions. He is the quintessential Alpha Male, in his mind, he is always right, because he's in charge and he says so (and his record of no losses would back it up), it would also go a long way to explaining why he can't tell if another person (who isn't under his direct command, like the two imperial commanders at Diamat) is trustworthy, almost like a wolf-pack. You're my pack, I'm in charge, I trust all of you, because what I say goes. You, you lead another pack... I'm told you're on the same side... but I'm wary because you're not one of my pack.

 

Evil? I wouldn't call him evil, not by a long shot. Calculating, and willing to do what it takes to win, yes. As it stands, at the end of the 2nd DA HH book, Jonson is going back to the Shield worlds to prep for going back to Terra, and we know that the Alpha Legion was deployed at some point to slow down Jonson and Russ from getting to Terra in time. His fury at traitors is pretty obvious too throughout the book. I'm sure ADB's short story will clear it all up... and I can't wait till this book comes out now, cause I wanna have it known for sure lol...

 

The last real question stands... who the feth is Cypher, like, we know who he is but like, wassadeallyo!?

[Frater Uriah]

The Lion was always alone, he grew up alone in the wilds of Caliban and even amongst the order he was alone. Amongst his Brother Primarchs he was alone, it was all he knew and his defence.

 

He learned never to let anyone or anything close, he learned to use his wits and his own skills to survive and that never left him. It's tragic in a way but our pyschology is affected by early childhood and this is reflected in all the Primarchs. The only other Primachs with an upbringinh similar to the Lions where Night Haunter and Russ.

 

Night Haunter grew up around Humans but was alone amongst them and saw only the worst, embracing this and using it to cloak his actions and feelings.

 

Russ started out with a pack of wolves! He learned, ironicly, the concepts of family, companionship and loyalty in an animalistic, pack mentality.

I agree with this. In fact, going back to something I just wrote on the Perturabo and the Lion thread here just today, cutting out the parts that deal with Perturabo from Fallen Angels:

The Lion spends the formative years of his existence, isolated in the wilds of Caliban having to kill some of the most horrific monsters imaginable to survive day-to-day, with no human contact. In all truth, the young Lion was really isolated as the apex predator of Caliban, with nothing else even coming close: even then, he was the only one of his kind. After an unknown number of years, he is discovered by Luther and taken into the Order, where he adopts its codes and knowledge and alloys them with the paranoia and peerless ability to assess any situation instantaneously that fighting for his entire life in the wilderness gave him. Now he is an apex predator with doctrine and nascent social skills, but still isolated because nobody else even comes close to him, not even Luther, his adoptive father and savior, who but for the Lion would have been the most remarkable man of his age on Caliban. He is still alone, but he dreams of someday finding someone out there like him. We see this in Descent of Angels: he looks into the night skies and hopes that he is not the only one like him out there.

 

Enter the Emperor and Magnus the Red, who come to Caliban and introduce him to his long-lost family. Suddenly, he has a father, someone who is superior to him, and nineteen brothers who are his peers, and he knows he is not alone in the galaxy. He is proud, as the teachings of the Order and his mastery of martiality have made him, but when he is alone with his Legion, without another Primarch, he is emotionally vague. This is why he developed his extremely aggressive, love/hate relationship with Russ, who was, like Jonson, raised by beasts as well, at least initially. In his own, curious way, the Lion loves his brothers from his Legion (he never refers to them as his sons, interestingly), but he does not grasp what makes them tick. They are too far removed from him, intellectually and emotionally, ultimately pieces to move around to achieve the endstate of his brilliant strategies. He never understands what an insult it is to Luther and the Dark Angels he sends back to Caliban to train and prepare subsequent generations of Dark Angels for the Crusade (to my way of thinking, he intended this as a great honor that was an unintentional blow to their martial pride. As far as the Lion knew, Luther saved him from a nuclear explosion. It is Luther's guilt that makes him feel he is being punished, rather than rewarded).

 

The Lion learns from his mistakes, in the end, I think. I really think it was his realization of his failings, that he had built that house himself, that led to the destruction of Caliban, moreso than Luther's betrayal.

That's my perspective on Lion El'Jonson. He is emotionally underdeveloped, paranoid, unempathetic and sociopathic. His morality is based upon a formal, written code without any basis in upbringing, and he only understood the concept of family in the same, codified terms. He was the greatest general in the Imperium, but for his inability to see people as more than pawns in the complex ballet of battlefield and void maneuver. He was sent off to the far reaches of the galaxy to keep him out of the Heresy, because Horus didn't know what he would do, or who he would side with.

 

It would be unjust to call the Lion the only bad Primarch: such an argument is over-simplifying his character and his nature. I think it would be more fair to say that Lion El'Jonson was the least human of the Primarchs. He was the greatest of the Great Beasts of Caliban, covered in a thin veneer of humanity: a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Jim Shady]

BUMP!

 

The Lion pretty much was the lonely kid. Out in the wilds of a planet he has no idea of the name or where it is BUT he does realise there is something special about him. Someone mentioned the Watchers maybe helping The Lion in not being corrupted by the Ruinous Powers, (considering it's said he's asleep in the middle of The Rock and only the Big E and The Watchers know where he is) so I would tend to believe that The Watchers may have had quite some contact with him before Luther found him.

 

It'll be interesting to read the story ADB has written for AOD and I dunno why the DA novels in HH get slated, I think they are quite decent reads.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Was the Lion a follower of Chaos? I don't know, but if either half of the Dark Angels Legion fell to Chaos then it would've been the half following him.

Was he evil? Yes.

 

He was an untrustworthy jerk and regarded everyone with suspicion.

He had his Marines defy The Emperor's orders.

The Marines loyal to The Emperor were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

[Billuriye]

Was he evil? Yes.

He was an untrustworthy jerk and regarded everyone with suspicion.

He had his Marines defy The Emperor's orders.

The Marines loyal to The Emperor were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

 

I hope you are trolling.

[Abaddonshand]

The last real question stands... who the feth is Cypher, like, we know who he is but like, wassadeallyo!?

 

I'm pretty certain that by the end up of the HH series we'll see Zahariel adopt the mantle of Lord Cypher, and retain it until the destruction of Caliban at which point he is sucked into the warp and becomes the Cypher we all know and puzzle over. That or he'll turn out to be one of Garro's lost lambs :P

[kamikazebob]

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human (and lost his homeworld and had his legion rebel against him ....). I pity Dark Angels players <_<

[Legatus]

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human

Ang he fought Leman Russ for an entire day without one being able to defeat the other. So I guess Leman Russ is not a very competent fighter either?

[kamikazebob]

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human

Ang he fought Leman Russ for an entire day without one being able to defeat the other. So I guess Leman Russ is not a very competent fighter either?

 

Yeah but that was play fighting. They weren't fighting to kill.

[Brother-Kezek]

He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned.

 

However, Russ did walk up and punch him in the face(Perhaps for good reason as he was cussing the lion for leaving their flank unprotected, but the Lion may not have agreed with Russ's assessment).

 

 

Thank you. Everyone seems to forget that Russ sucker punched the Lion first.

[jaxjace]

he never did have much of a personality persayyy

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human (and lost his homeworld and had his legion rebel against him ....). I pity Dark Angels players :(

 

No, he got beaten by a human who was given so much power by the Chaos Gods he was practically a daemon prince, and had extensive knowledge of sorcery.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned.

 

However, Russ did walk up and punch him in the face(Perhaps for good reason as he was cussing the lion for leaving their flank unprotected, but the Lion may not have agreed with Russ's assessment).

 

 

Thank you. Everyone seems to forget that Russ sucker punched the Lion first.

 

and you guys seem to forget that you left him high and dry in the middle of battle and were the cause of many deaths among your allies...

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Yeah but that was play fighting. They weren't fighting to kill.

As if Leman Russ was not fighting to win in a purely competitive fight.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yeah but that was play fighting. They weren't fighting to kill.

As if Leman Russ was not fighting to win in a purely competitive fight.

 

i have no doubt he was fighting to win. the Lion was a amazing fighter.

its when russ saw the stupidity of it that he stopped fighting and got cold cocked.

 

WLK

[Pulse]

It didn't quite go like that, Russ started laughing and then got knocked out - the Lion was cr*p then, made worse by the fact he fled after.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Was he evil? Yes.

He was an untrustworthy jerk and regarded everyone with suspicion.

He had his Marines defy The Emperor's orders.

The Marines loyal to The Emperor were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

 

I hope you are trolling.

Not even a little.

 

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human (and lost his homeworld and had his legion rebel against him ....). I pity Dark Angels players :blink:

To be fair, Luther wasn't just a human. He was a super Marine. They couldn't turn him into a Marine using the "modern" process that requires teenagers and geneseed, since he was too old, so they used the old method that takes more time and work while resulting in a higher quality Marine (similar to the way Custodes are made).

[Abaddonshand]

Was he evil? Yes.

He was an untrustworthy jerk and regarded everyone with suspicion.

He had his Marines defy The Emperor's orders.

The Marines loyal to The Emperor were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

 

I hope you are trolling.

Not even a little.

 

The Lion is bad - he got beaten by a human (and lost his homeworld and had his legion rebel against him ....). I pity Dark Angels players :blink:

To be fair, Luther wasn't just a human. He was a super Marine. They couldn't turn him into a Marine using the "modern" process that requires teenagers and geneseed, since he was too old, so they used the old method that takes more time and work while resulting in a higher quality Marine (similar to the way Custodes are made).

 

I thought the adult recruits were lesser than normal astartes, that's certainly the impression that most of the fluff gives, they're more in line with proto-astartes power level.

[Pulse]

I thought the adult recruits were lesser than normal astartes, that's certainly the impression that most of the fluff gives, they're more in line with proto-astartes power level.

Yep your right.

[Dr_Boomstick]

I thought the adult recruits were lesser than normal astartes, that's certainly the impression that most of the fluff gives, they're more in line with proto-astartes power level.

Yep your right.

 

This is why Hadariel becomes all whiny and defensive.

[The Emperor's Champion]

So they made Luthor into a proto-Marine instead of a Terran Marine?

The Terran Marines were created before they had full Primarchs to engineer the mass production process from, and they were better for it.

The proto-Marines were the step before that.

AFAIK, it's only the mass-produced Marine process that requires teenagers (due to the geneseed), so why make Luther a proto-Marine?

[Arioch]

What people seem to forget about the fight between Luther and the Lion, is that the Lion was about to kill Luther when he realised he could not do it (so much for all the "emotionless" primarch theory). The Lions hesitation gave Luther the chance to strike the primarch with the power of the warp (because due to his fall to chaos he had obtained such powers). Luther was never a spacemarine btw. He never recieved any geenseed, but his body was modyfied to near astartes-level, and when the Lion arrived at Caliban, Luther had been further boosted by the powers of chaos.

 

I think many are making the Lion seem more retarded than is actually shown. He is having trouble at reading people from time to time, but I think he is very protective of his honour and ever striving to do the best with the means at his desposal.

 

Im unsure if he wanted to punish Luther and the others. Maybe there where another reason than betrayal. Why would he send Israfael back? The man was loyal to the core.

 

I dont get most of the negative comments, they seems to be based on misconceptions or direct misunderstandings of the Lions character. You see a self serving bastard, willing to go to any length to achieve his goal? I see a warrior in desperate times, able to keep his head clear, fight for his father and the Imperium, while at the same time hoping to gain favour from it. Is it so hard to comprehend that you can fight the good fight and still hope to be honoured for it? Seems very human to me, compared to many other loyal primarchs.

[Jim Shady]

Rightly stated, Luther was made into a semi-marine, much like Kor Phaeron was cause they were both too old to have all the organs needed to turn a man into a Space Marine.