Was the Lion the only truly bad Primarch?

[Lord_Caerolion]

So they made Luthor into a proto-Marine instead of a Terran Marine?

The Terran Marines were created before they had full Primarchs to engineer the mass production process from, and they were better for it.

The proto-Marines were the step before that.

AFAIK, it's only the mass-produced Marine process that requires teenagers (due to the geneseed), so why make Luther a proto-Marine?

 

Nope, the proto-Astartes were simply genetically modified soldiers. They weren't as strong as the subsequent Marines.

[MadDoc]

Not even a little.

So just wrong then.

 

To be fair, Luther wasn't just a human. He was a super Marine. They couldn't turn him into a Marine using the "modern" process that requires teenagers and geneseed, since he was too old, so they used the old method that takes more time and work while resulting in a higher quality Marine (similar to the way Custodes are made).

Much like you are again here.

 

So they made Luthor into a proto-Marine instead of a Terran Marine?

He was always a proto-Marine (as you put it).

 

Your fuzzy background knowledge is doing you no favours. :rolleyes:

[Pulse]

Nope, the proto-Astartes were simply genetically modified soldiers. They weren't as strong as the subsequent Marines.

This.

[Candleshoes]

The Marines loyal to The Emperor were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

 

How do you figure? A more accurate statement would be this:

 

The Marines loyal to Caliban's ideals were on the side that opposed him when his Legion went to war with itself.

[The Emperor's Champion]

So they made Luthor into a proto-Marine instead of a Terran Marine?

The Terran Marines were created before they had full Primarchs to engineer the mass production process from, and they were better for it.

The proto-Marines were the step before that.

AFAIK, it's only the mass-produced Marine process that requires teenagers (due to the geneseed), so why make Luther a proto-Marine?

 

Nope, the proto-Astartes were simply genetically modified soldiers. They weren't as strong as the subsequent Marines.

Obviously, hence what I said.... So why not make him a "Terran" Marine? There's no given reason that process shouldn't have worked on Luther, and it would have left him stronger than a "mass-produced" Marine.

 

Not even a little.

So just wrong then.

Not even a little.

 

 

To be fair, Luther wasn't just a human. He was a super Marine. They couldn't turn him into a Marine using the "modern" process that requires teenagers and geneseed, since he was too old, so they used the old method that takes more time and work while resulting in a higher quality Marine (similar to the way Custodes are made).

Much like you are again here.

I just assumed that if they were going to go the long way around to making Luther a marine, they'd at least not half-ass it. Apparently I was wrong.

[MadDoc]

Not even a little.

For once you're right, you weren't even a little wrong, you were completely wrong.

 

I just assumed that if they were going to go the long way around to making Luther a marine, they'd at least not half-ass it. Apparently I was wrong.

You assumed something which was completely at odds with the established background for Luther, so yes you were very wrong.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Not even a little.

You weren't even a little wrong, you were completely right.

Yep.

 

 

I just assumed that if they were going to go the long way around to making Luther a marine, they'd at least not half-ass it. Apparently I was wrong.

You assumed something which was completely at odds with the established background for Luther, so yes you were very wrong.

Not really.

[Sons of Horus]

Terran Marines are made in the same way the rest of them are (gene-seed). Longfang (prospero burns) had his taken out when he died. Terran marines aren't superior to the astartes from other planets. They didn't make Luther "super" because there was no such process. They did the most they could with an old man.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Obviously, hence what I said.... So why not make him a "Terran" Marine? There's no given reason that process shouldn't have worked on Luther, and it would have left him stronger than a "mass-produced" Marine.

 

It's because you're basing your entire argument on incorrect information. The Terran Astartes weren't as strong as the Primarch-based Marines. They were crude copies of the Marines that would later be made using geneseed from the Primarch Project. They didn't purposefully make him using a lesser method than one that was available, it's just that there are two sorts of marines, pre- and post-Primarch creation.

[MadDoc]

You weren't even a little wrong, you were completely right.

Yep.

That just makes you look immature as well as wrong. You're either ignorant of the facts regarding the Lion's allegiances or are willfully ignoring them, either way you're wrong.

 

You assumed something which was completely at odds with the established background for Luther, so yes you were very wrong.

Not really.

Not really? Thats exactly what you did and it made you totally wrong. You're clearly incapable of admitting that though.

 

Or, as Billuriye guessed earlier, are you in fact just trolling?

[Dr_Boomstick]

Obviously, hence what I said.... So why not make him a "Terran" Marine? There's no given reason that process shouldn't have worked on Luther, and it would have left him stronger than a "mass-produced" Marine.

 

It's because you're basing your entire argument on incorrect information. The Terran Astartes weren't as strong as the Primarch-based Marines. They were crude copies of the Marines that would later be made using geneseed from the Primarch Project. They didn't purposefully make him using a lesser method than one that was available, it's just that there are two sorts of marines, pre- and post-Primarch creation.

 

BUT (and Lord Caerolion probably knows this, I'm just clarifying, since it wasn't clear to me reading the post), there is a difference between the Terran Proto-Marines used in the Unification Wars, and the Terran Marines like Garro that were made after (and in the case of the DA at least, during) the Primarch Project. Marines like Garro, Tarvitz, etc, ARE as strong as Marines from the Primarchs' "Home" planets, because they are still made using their Primarch's geneseed. When the Primarchs were scattered, the Emperor still had samples with which to make Space Marines in their image.

[Lord_Caerolion]

BUT (and Lord Caerolion probably knows this, I'm just clarifying, since it wasn't clear to me reading the post), there is a difference between the Terran Proto-Marines used in the Unification Wars, and the Terran Marines like Garro that were made after (and in the case of the DA at least, during) the Primarch Project. Marines like Garro, Tarvitz, etc, ARE as strong as Marines from the Primarchs' "Home" planets, because they are still made using their Primarch's geneseed. When the Primarchs were scattered, the Emperor still had samples with which to make Space Marines in their image.

 

Yep, you got what I was trying to say. I probably shoudldn't have used the term Terran Marine to mean the proto-Astartes.

[Brother-Kezek]

He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned.

 

However, Russ did walk up and punch him in the face(Perhaps for good reason as he was cussing the lion for leaving their flank unprotected, but the Lion may not have agreed with Russ's assessment).

 

 

Thank you. Everyone seems to forget that Russ sucker punched the Lion first.

 

and you guys seem to forget that you left him high and dry in the middle of battle and were the cause of many deaths among your allies...

 

WLK

 

Thats the Space Wolves point of view. From the Dark Angels view, Russ was about to mess up a well planned mission, so the Lion lauched the attack without him. Either way, it doesn't change anything. Russ threw the first sucker punch.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

He dishonourably took advantage of Russ during their fight to knock him out striking him almost when his back was turned.

 

However, Russ did walk up and punch him in the face(Perhaps for good reason as he was cussing the lion for leaving their flank unprotected, but the Lion may not have agreed with Russ's assessment).

 

 

Thank you. Everyone seems to forget that Russ sucker punched the Lion first.

 

and you guys seem to forget that you left him high and dry in the middle of battle and were the cause of many deaths among your allies...

 

WLK

 

Thats the Space Wolves point of view. From the Dark Angels view, Russ was about to mess up a well planned mission, so the Lion lauched the attack without him. Either way, it doesn't change anything. Russ threw the first sucker punch.

 

and when the fight ended, the Lion threw the last sucker punch.

 

and what part of a well planned mission has you willing to leave your allies taking needless damage?

 

EDIT: this arguemt sounds very obi-wan kenobi to me...

 

WLK

[Brother-Kezek]

We are getting off topic, so this will be my last reply adressing the "sucker punch". Russ threw the first blow, they fight, and the The Lion throws the last blow. I don't see how The Lion is the bad guy in that situation. Its not the Lion's fault Russ couldn't knock him out. And their is two different versions of that story floating around. One has Russ getting too emotional about some guy calling him The Emperor's dog, and wanted to launch a reckless attack. The Lion had been working on a plan to break the siege for a while and wasn't going to let Russ ruin it, so he launched the attack without him. The other story talks about the Dark Angels leaving the Wolves flank un-protected, and the Wolves took some losses. Two stories, two different points of view. Niether makes the Lion a bad guy because the overall mission was a sucess.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

We are getting off topic, so this will be my last reply adressing the "sucker punch". Russ threw the first blow, they fight, and the The Lion throws the last blow. I don't see how The Lion is the bad guy in that situation. Its not the Lion's fault Russ couldn't knock him out. And their is two different versions of that story floating around. One has Russ getting too emotional about some guy calling him The Emperor's dog, and wanted to launch a reckless attack. The Lion had been working on a plan to break the siege for a while and wasn't going to let Russ ruin it, so he launched the attack without him. The other story talks about the Dark Angels leaving the Wolves flank un-protected, and the Wolves took some losses. Two stories, two different points of view. Niether makes the Lion a bad guy because the overall mission was a sucess.

 

maybe that how the Sons of Caliban prefer to fight, but for any Son of Fenris, how we achieve victory is as important as the victory itself.

 

victory gained without honor isnt victory, but merely stalling your defeat.

 

lets get back on topic though. we can agree on that much.

 

WLK

[Brother-Kezek]

The Sons of Caliban are Knights. The very image of honor and duty. To bring this back on topic, What examples do you have of The Lion being "the only truely bad Primarch? I curious to know how The Lion is bad, and how Horus, Logar, Cruz, etc get a free pass. He couldn't have been that bad, since The Lion and Russ became closer after their fight. Or fights, I think they had more than one.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

BWAHAHAHA.

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

BWAHAHAHA.

 

WLK

Yea... :confused:

This whole topic is kinda like that.

[Brother-Kezek]

BWAHAHAHA.

 

WLK

Didn't realize I was telling a joke. But if your response is the best example you can come up with of The Lion being the only truely bad Primarch, I guess I have to accept your answer. It fits well with the other poor examples given in this topic.

[Billuriye]

Didn't realize I was telling a joke. But if your response is the best example you can come up with of The Lion being the only truely bad Primarch, I guess I have to accept your answer. It fits well with the other poor examples given in this topic.

 

I agree. Lesson learned from this topic is that post count ain't worth sh*t.

[Legatus]

Aw, come on, TEC, you should know better than to riff on a Primarch based on popular misconceptions about him or even based on what people who already don't like him prefer to read into stories. After all, that's what people do with Guilliman all the time. Just like Guilliman was not the arrogant jerk people like to read into "The First Heretic" and did not grab power and forced everyone to accept the Codex doctrine after the Heresy, Jonson was not disloyal like people like to read into "Angels of Darkness" and never considered betraying the Emperor for his own gains. People don't like them, and they make up stuff that is not really supported by the fluff. And some BL authors like to stir up some conspiracy theories, which people gobble up even if they are contrary to canon.

[Candleshoes]

Just like Guilliman... did not grab power...

 

'My sons,' he smiled, though it was utterly without warmth. 'It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire.'

--- Primarch Lion El'Jonson speaking of his brother Roboute, Age of Darkness, Savage Weapons

 

I love controversy!

[Legatus]

Yes, don't let hindsight cloud your opinion... :tu: (after the Heresy Guilliman established the reduction in power for all Primarchs, himself included, and then continued to lead a single Chapter for his remaining 100 years)

[Brother-Kezek]

Jonson may have simply returned Luther and the Calibanites to their home planet to ensure his 'base' was secure. Maybe he discerned something was in the works and wanted to keep those he didn't trust close to him, while ensuring the future of the Legion was protect by having those he trusted the most oversee the recruitment and security of the world. He certainly may have had reservations about putting Terrans in charge of Caliban given how they initially treated the world Because of his tendency to see others as chess pieces to be maneuvered, he didn't take into account how those he relegated to this role might react as time went on.

 

I think he sent the Calibanites home because they had the most experience fighting the chaos that lived on the planet. Who better to protect the planet from choas, then the Knights that lived there, and had fought the great beasts all of their lives?