Was the Lion the only truly bad Primarch?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

BWAHAHAHA.

 

WLK

Didn't realize I was telling a joke. But if your response is the best example you can come up with of The Lion being the only truely bad Primarch, I guess I have to accept your answer. It fits well with the other poor examples given in this topic.

 

I was going to ask what part of knightly duty and honor includes screwing over your allies**? then decided against it as your reply would be as biased as mine.

 

and then thought there is no way a person who has even the basic knowledge of the DA could be serious, so you MUST be talling a joke. turns out you werent.

 

**there are many accounts of the DA leaving a ongoing battle to pursue a member of the Fallen, often to the detriment of their allies. there was also the short story that heralded their box set release in 3rd ed with them rescuing a pinned guard unit, that leaving the unit stranded when they discovered it consisted of ogryn.

 

but of course, these examples go against your view of the DA, so must be discounted.

 

(and i actually like the Lion. didnt at first but changed my mind on him. his legion is who i dont like)

 

WLK

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and please go back and read anything i have posted in this thread: other than this debated sucker punch incident, i have nothing negaative to say of the Lion.

 

his loyalty, in my opinion, is to the Emperor and not to be questioned.

 

WLK

[Brother-Kezek]

People have different views of what "honor" is. I believe "Descent of Angels" talks about the Knightly Orders on Caliban. Thats were I got my basic knowledge of the Hersy era Dark Angels. If you want to debate the current era Dark Angels, start a forum and I will be happy to continue our arguement there. Mean while, I'm still waiting on your example of The Lion being the "only truely bad Primarch"

 

I was typing a response and didn't see your second post. You already answered my question.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

People have different views of what "honor" is. I believe "Descent of Angels" talks about the Knightly Orders on Caliban. Thats were I got my basic knowledge of the Hersy era Dark Angels. If you want to debate the current era Dark Angels, start a forum and I will be happy to continue our arguement there. Mean while, I'm still waiting on your example of The Lion being the "only truely bad Primarch"

 

as i never gave a example, your going to be waiting for a long friggin time.

i didnt create this topic.

i already mentioned i like the Lion.

 

so you "waiting for my example" is a waste of time. there isnt any clear examples of the Lion being a bad primarch. heck, of the examples we have of him, most of them are good. (the end of fallen angels can bee seen multiple ways.)

 

WLK

[Brother-Kezek]

I was typing a reply and didn't see you second post. Take deep, slow breaths. It seems like your taking this way too personal.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

not really, but i thought (this being the internet) everything needed to be expressed as clearly as possible to prevent further further confusion.

 

WLK

[Dr_Boomstick]

I don't know that he's really evil. If GW decides to work towards what is hinted by BL, then I think he is the one of the most cold and two-faced Primarchs (and many of them can be those things, by nature of their design). I certainly don't think that his sending Luther and his company of marines back to Caliban was done for altruistic reasons, and that given they were probably left there to rot, Luther has every reason to hate the Lion. I think the Lion is simply one the most unlikeable and slimy Primarchs, maybe besides the Night Haunter half of Curze, and probably Angron as well. The knightly chivalry is just the facade over the animal inside. That's just the impression I get, not what I think is definitely fact. I also suspect that if BL DOES decide to do their little switch-around with the Alpha Legion, making them

"good guys all along" then I can definitely see DA being the traitorous flipside, with elements of the fallen as loyal. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Lion as tainted. That being said, I haven't read all the books, and I don't have an attachment to the legion. They are one of my least favorite groups of space marines, and I'm perfectly happy to have their fluff turned on it's head for the sake of drama, as long as ridiculous retconning doesn't occur (any moreso than normally goes on in 40k.) I'm sort of the DADA (Dark Angels' Devil's Advocate).

[Candleshoes]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Lion as tainted.

 

In the recent "Age of Darkness" HH anthology,

it confirms that the Lion is a loyalist (quite a staunch one with unshakeable willpower), and that it was Konrad Curze who was the first one to bring up a vision (or prophecy) of the idea that when the Imperium looks back on their conflict at the far fringe (they had been waring for over two years at that point), they will surely accuse him of doubt, ask why he was not present at Terra, and whisper of the corruption needed to wait and see who will win/ side with the victor.

The Lion is definitely not friendly, and he is very "un-human" in his dealings with all, even with his own legion, but I don't think he is as "slimy" as you make him out to be.

[Dr_Boomstick]

Yeah, that is actually a great story and I'm cool with that resolution. I just wouldn't have wanted to see them begin to characterise him in such an (arguably) negative light in certain books and then just dump it and say he was loyal. I like that they acknowledge there is a shadiness and doubt there.

[guthmaer]

i like to think he knew about the chaos taint on caliban so left luther and pals there cause there from caliban and might be more resistant ton the taint or relised they where tainted so got rid .i point out i like the lion hes loyal to me even though he will always be second to russ

[Arioch]

As I see it, Luthers example is the classical story of a man sent to guard a great evil, while the leader is of doing something else. But the great evil corrupts him, and when the leader returns he has changed, and the evil is free.

 

This is only my guess, and I could be terrible wrong, but what I always felt with the Dark Angels was the sence of tragedy.

 

The classical pattern in a tragedy is that of good men, who somehow falls or give in to their dark desires. If the Lion sent Luther to root on Caliban, where would the tragedy in that be? If the Lion sent Luther back in the hope of him protecting Caliban, imagine his surprise when he gets back and discovers the truth. Imagine his anger, when he finds that his best friend has joined the enemy, the sence of betrayal in his eyes. The Dark Angels begin a relentless assault on Caliban, blinded by anger they sence nothing else than the desire to destroy their enemies, the enemy that they once called brothers. Decending to the surface of the planet, The Lion confronts Luther, learning the terrible truth: Luther did not realise why he was sent back to Caliban. Not realising his important mission to guard the world from corruption, he instead believed it to be a punishment. The Lions wrath turns to guilt, guilt because the Lion realises its all his fault. He should have talked to Luther, he should have visited Caliban, before it was to late. The two battle on while the planet is destroyed all around them. In the end, none can bear to kill the other, although the Lion is griviously wounded. Luther frees himself from the influence of chaos, and realises that his attempt to protect Caliban ended up destroying the planet and that he has betrayed anything he once stood fore. Thus friendship and brotherhood let to betrayal and strife, honour and pride let to chaos and destruction.

 

Or at least thats how I imagine it mostly. So what went wrong? Maybe lord Cypher was supposed to have told Luther something? But the Lion had picked the wrong guy to do this? I dont know what went wrong, but time will tell.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

there would be a certain irony in luthor being sent to guard caliban by the lion, only not being told what he is guarding against...sorta like the Emperor and the warp to mankind.

 

WLK

[Candleshoes]

sorta like the Emperor and the warp to mankind.

 

Very interesting and always part of the story I never understood.

 

When the Lion lands on Caliban, it was at literally the worst and darkest part imaginable, and for years, he survived in the heart of a warp infused hell, that ran unchecked, like completely unchecked. Fallen Angels made reference to the forests being above mankind on the food chain (read: it killed the stupid and the weak, the foolish and the naive, all that came near it, and inadvertently, this kept the strength of Calabanite humanity safe and away from the worst dangers).

 

The Lion on the other hand knew chaos, he saw the worst of it, what it could do, what it created, and how no good could ever come of it. He had to, living in hell for that long. When he is found by the men of the Order and begins the path of the knight, I doubt he would forget. His crusades on the land itself and the monsters it harbored were treated as such, simple and dutiful. He, like his father, kept what he knew of evil locked deep inside, and chose to have Caliban live in Ignorance of it.

 

His micro machinations always rang of the stuff of the Emperor and humanity, and he fails all the same. The difference is, in the Lion's case, if he signed off on keeping evil in the dark, what reason then, what real reason, did he send back Luther? We know that with mankind now being placed HIGHER on the food chain than the forest and that which lives within, Calabanites now face that evil front and centre, and it wins. Luther truly cares and does what he thinks is right to save his home, but the question still stands, why was he sent back at all?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

what i posted above was a spur of the moment idea that popped into my head...and looking at the grim dark of 40k, might become reality at some point.

 

but why would the Lion, a figure now infamous for his inability to read people, send away a person that almost allowed him to be blown to complete smithereens, who is also the closet thing he has to family, to the sole source of his future soldiers?

 

maybe that Luthor's unquestionable loyalty to the Lion was now circumspect, and the Lion was unable to deal with the idea of that betrayal...but why then return him to corrupt the home you shared and the people you rely on for soldiers?

 

maybe we stumbled across something, and luthor's return had nothing to do with that but rather more to do with his ability to protect caliban from both the Imperium and itself...

 

i dont think we are going to get these questions answered soon, and if we do, then i hope to the All-Father that either abnett or ADB is responsbile for that relevation, because they are the two most able of the HH authors to due so. whichever answer we get, it will be presented in the most amazing and mid blowing way possible with either of them at the helm.

 

WLK

[Arioch]

I think rumor has it that the next DA book is being written by Gav Thorpe. I personally would have preffered Mike Lee again, its a problem not having the books written bye one man, and the quality of the second book was damn solid. And Gavs look on the angels have always been kinda....twosided. But maybe he can redeem himself this time, his book "The purging of Kadillus" was pretty decent.

[GoogleusMaximus]

I am going to say that the Dark Angels have always been my favorite chapter.

 

Now my own personal opinion, I believe that the Lion knew what would happen if the Imperium came to Caliban and found it corrupted with the beasts, perhaps he knew that the crusade wouldn't eliminate the taint but instead hide it from the view of the Emperor...

 

I don't know about evil but I think that he felt very much alone, separated from everyone else around him. He stood above the other men but I wonder if he might have had a fear that the other Primarchs might see past the cold and calculating front to a more bestial side that he kept hidden from all others.

 

I wouldn't say evil but I would say complicated, I don't believe that he knew the Iron Warriors were aligned with Horus, perhaps his distance from others made it hard for him to read his brothers.

[Tybrus]

Am very much looking forward to what mr A D-B has to say about the DA in his forth coming book! Although a staunch IF player, the DA have always intrigued me especially after reading Gav Thorpes Angels of Darkness. Since that lovely little twist Astellan has regarding the Lion just waiting has always played on my mind.

 

The Lion was in the wild yet on his own for the younger years of his life, where as the Night Haunter was also on his own but for all his life growing up. What I always have wondered is what if the Lion like KC and was also not found by people but just raised himself, what would he be like? I think like KC, he would be void of empathy & just as cold having had no 'connection' with people.

 

All Primarchs who were raised by cultures were molded by that culture somehow. As the Lion was found not straight from birth, you wonder what effect did being on his own have on him?? My own honest opinion is that if he grew up totally on his own like KC then he would have become just plain ruthless. He showed loyalty towards the Callianite Astartes & not the Terrans as he grew up with the Knights. Don't think he would have been so predjudiced towards the Terrans if he grew up without the company of the Knights. Just my two bobs worth :ph34r:

 

 

I have to agree, hell Astellan would have won me over with his points...

[Torvak Kyre]

Well you could say i'm being bias since i'm a space wolf player but I do think that the lion was an dis-honourable, arrogant little whatsit but I wouldn't call him specifically evil.

 

I guess it's really a matter of opinion.

[Hrolleif]

I believe the Lion was loyal as any. He may have been a little dastardly at times and had horrid social skills (as has been covered throughout this thread), but this does not make for a traitor.

[Candleshoes]

come on even Angron was more loyal

 

I'm not following your line of thinking, can you explain how Angron was more loyal than the Lion?

[Torvak Kyre]

come on even Angron was more loyal

 

I'm not following your line of thinking, can you explain how Angron was more loyal than the Lion?

 

Well at least Angron looked his foe in the eye before he killed them. The lion would just kill them before they could turn or bombard them. Soz about putting 'Loyal' I ment 'Honourable'

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Explain please, how was he less honourable than a Bezereker...

 

Looking someone in the eye does not make them 'honourable' at all imo, just means you are coming from the front. Honour is veeeery different than just that. And Honour dictates that you try to save lives and win as quickly and easily as possible...so surprise attacks etc: on an enemy force is completely acceptable. And it wasnt like Russ challenged him, russ just *walks up and thumps Lion in the face,* honour dictated that, as Leman was laughing (Lion percieved it to be at him) that you have to satisfy honour, so, in that sense, no the Lion was honourable. He was Loyal. He was definetly not evil/bad, he was just anti-social and socially-awkward, and his bad poeple skills let him down with Luther in the end.

 

My personal theory with the sending back of Luther to Caliban is that who else did he trust?? Luther was, in the Lions opinion the most trustworthy Marine nhe had to keep Caliban safe, unfortunatly, he stuffed up quite a bit in sending him back to Caliban.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

come on even Angron was more loyal

 

I'm not following your line of thinking, can you explain how Angron was more loyal than the Lion?

 

Well at least Angron looked his foe in the eye before he killed them. The lion would just kill them before they could turn or bombard them. Soz about putting 'Loyal' I ment 'Honourable'

 

As a fellow wolf, you really have no stable ground to stand on here.

 

if anything, the Lion relied on people's sworn oaths MORE than his brothers due to his inability to read people. so as long as you were straight with him, youd get the same in return.

 

and angron was a moron, even horus refers to him as the idiot. he has no honor in the traditional sense. (he does respect skill at arms, but this isnt the only place to gain or display your honor)

 

WLK

[Billuriye]

and angron was a moron, even horus refers to him as the idiot. he has no honor in the traditional sense. (he does respect skill at arms, but this isnt the only place to gain or display your honor)

 

That will probably change with ADB's takeover.

[A D-B]

and angron was a moron, even horus refers to him as the idiot. he has no honor in the traditional sense. (he does respect skill at arms, but this isnt the only place to gain or display your honor)

 

That will probably change with ADB's takeover.

 

It will.