Was the Lion the only truly bad Primarch?

[Brannick]

Angron/plot options for A D-B: -

 

1) Loveable rogue whose anger stems from a yearning to be with the woman he fought alongside in the 'pits'.

 

2) A tip of the hat acknowledgement to Phil Mitchell as Angron occasionally uses the word geezer within his dialogue. (A D-B secretly enjoys 'stenders)

 

3) Khârn adopts the tag line 'you won't like him when he is angry.'

 

4) A lectern and half-moon spectacles cause a world-wide audience gasp as we are introduced to Anrgon the lerned.

 

In all seriousness, I hope any Angron/World Eaters book is not just a blood-filled charnal house of constant battle scenes. It's also my wish to see Khorne introduce himself to Angron in some way, shape or form - that would be a great read.

 

Apologies for topic divergence.

 

As it stands, although I have not received my copy of Age of Darkness as I type this, The Lion is the Primarch who the BL HH authors have left us open to any number of plot options, which we are all doing incredible well to attempt to complete in advance! :(

[Ethrion]

Age of Darkness - Savage Weapons (The Lion):

 

 

well thanks to A D-B the situation with where the Lion's loyalties lay has been once and for all put to bed and done in the most awesome way too!

 

[Legatus]

And thanks to Graham McNeill, Roboute Guilliman is now a traitor. ;)

[Pulse]

And thanks to Graham McNeill, Roboute Guilliman is now a traitor. -_-

I bet you cried.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and angron was a moron, even horus refers to him as the idiot. he has no honor in the traditional sense. (he does respect skill at arms, but this isnt the only place to gain or display your honor)

 

That will probably change with ADB's takeover.

 

It will.

 

Thats good.

 

All the primarchs are super powerful beings that have, up until the HH series (and sometimes within), been portrayed as whiny children with a skinned knee.

 

WLK

[Dinks]

Only up until? They are more like whiney children now since the HH novels have come around, not all i admit. but most others have.

 

It has only been Abnett and A B-D that have given the primarchs more character and depth, the other novels by other authors have been very poor when concerning the primarchs.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Only up until? They are more like whiney children now since the HH novels have come around, not all i admit. but most others have.

 

It has only been Abnett and A B-D that have given the primarchs more character and depth, the other novels by other authors have been very poor when concerning the primarchs.

 

i did say

"and sometimes within"

 

WLK

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

and angron was a moron, even horus refers to him as the idiot. he has no honor in the traditional sense. (he does respect skill at arms, but this isnt the only place to gain or display your honor)

 

That will probably change with ADB's takeover.

 

It will.

 

Has A D-B been given the task of the writing more WE HH stuff? I thought this was still TBA? If so, will Varren be in it?

[Ethrion]

And thanks to Graham McNeill, Roboute Guilliman is now a traitor. B)

 

Nah :) I didn't get that impression, though I see what you mean. I took it that considering the events of the time it just looked very suspicious that Guilliman would contact the Lion looking for his support. The unthinkable has happened already, Horus turned traitor, legion against legion, it's an era of mistrusted and subterfuge so no wonder the Lion would view anything with suspicion.

[Legatus]

Guilliman is not a traitor because of what was said in ADB's story (though that was bad enough). He is a trator because he did not intervene for 7 years while the Heresy was raging on. The Emperor might still be alive today if the Ultramarines had joined in from the start. But instead he chose to spend the time writing his book, which according to previous fluff he had been working on for the entire Great Crusade. But now apparently he made it all up "on the spot" during the Heresy, while the Ultramarines where as unfamiliar with that doctrine as anyone else, instead of those doctrines being tested and refined by the Legion throughout the Great Crusade, as earlier sources would have suggsted. All in all a pretty re****** piece of work from McNeill. I was not expecting it would be this bad.

[Walter Payton]

Guilliman is not a traitor because of what was said in ADB's story (though that was bad enough). He is a trator because he did not intervene for 7 years while the Heresy was raging on. The Emperor might still be alive today if the Ultramarines had joined in from the start. But instead he chose to spend the time writing his book, which according to previous fluff he had been working on for the entire Great Crusade. But now apparently he made it all up "on the spot" during the Heresy, while the Ultramarines where as unfamiliar with that doctrine as anyone else, instead of those doctrines being tested and refined by the Legion throughout the Great Crusade, as earlier sources would have suggsted. All in all a pretty re****** piece of work from McNeill. I was not expecting it would be this bad.

 

Explain to me what happens in the story. Slowly. This can't be happening.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Guilliman is not a traitor because of what was said in ADB's story (though that was bad enough). He is a trator because he did not intervene for 7 years while the Heresy was raging on. The Emperor might still be alive today if the Ultramarines had joined in from the start. But instead he chose to spend the time writing his book, which according to previous fluff he had been working on for the entire Great Crusade. But now apparently he made it all up "on the spot" during the Heresy, while the Ultramarines where as unfamiliar with that doctrine as anyone else, instead of those doctrines being tested and refined by the Legion throughout the Great Crusade, as earlier sources would have suggsted. All in all a pretty re****** piece of work from McNeill. I was not expecting it would be this bad.

 

Explain to me what happens in the story. Slowly. This can't be happening.

 

the gist of Rules of Engagement is after the Battle for Calth, Guilliman started a massive retraining of the Ultramarines in order to better combat his brothers (including those that are now known as loyalists. being prepared you see). this culminates in the Codex Astartes.

 

this training was required because Guilliman believed that no matter the outcome of the Heresy, the Imperium as it was known would be destroyed. So instead of rushing off to die on Terra, he began planing for the continued survival of mankind, not the Imperium.

 

Now, what has Legatus screaming into the wind is that while this retraining was taking place, so was the Heresy itself. he believes that the Ultramarine, if they comitted themselves to battle immediately might have had the chance to save the Emperor at Terra.

 

I personally believe that without the massive training the Ultramarines had, and would share amongst their loyalist brethen after the Heresy, we wouldnt have a Imperium of any type by the 41st Mill. so while you can agrue that the delay of the Ultramarines might have caused to Emperor to fall, i see it as the training they undertook allowed them to salvage a Imperium.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Basically...

 

Original continuity:

Guilliman had been compiling the "doctrine" part of the Codex Astartes during the Great Crusade, and the "regulations" part of teh Codex during the Scouring. The Ultramarines only learn about the Heresy while the Battle for Terra is already under way, at which point they race back to Terra.

 

New continuity:

Nothing of the Codex existed prior to the Heresy. The Ultramarines learn of the Heresy at the start, but Guilliman decides not to rush to his brother's aid, and instead starts compiling the Codex Astartes, whose doctrines the Ultramarines are now trying to adapt in field tests and manouvers, while the rest of the Imperium is fighting for survival.

 

 

Edit:

I personally believe that without the massive training the Ultramarines had, and would share amongst their loyalist brethen after the Heresy, we wouldnt have a Imperium of any type by the 41st Mill. so while you can agrue that the delay of the Ultramarines might have caused to Emperor to fall, i see it as the training they undertook allowed them to salvage a Imperium.

In the fluff we had so far, Guilliman had already been working on the Codex Astartes doctrines throughout the Great Crusade (in the IA:AL he suggested to Alpharius to adopt those doctrines, for example, and he is said to have included Perturabos siege tactics. The Ultramarines were also described as "learning from each engagement, and applying that knowledge to the next" in one of the latses SW/TS books), while the regulations and new organisation for the Space Marines and the Imperial armed forces had been developed after the Heresy, during the Scouring.

In this new retcon, the Ultramarines Legion knew nothing of this Codex doctrine, and was wuite unfamiliar with it during their manouvers and tests. Due to this retcon, which is supposed to justify Guilliman's decisions, the entire justification is not very satisfying.

 

Preiously the Ultramarines were said to not have known about the Heres ysooner. They have now been retconned to have known, but having decided not to act. Their reason for not acting is also based on a retcon, since the Codex Astartes is now considered to just now being written, instead of already being used by the Ultramarines Legion, and being tested and refined for the past years of the Crusade. A clums retcon, only to justify an ugly retcon. Not very elegant.

[Candleshoes]

There's a lot to be said about someone with that kind of responsibility making a tough choice when confronted with something that you know is, the long view.

 

Though the explanation and details are different, the spirit and notion of why, and of outcome, are still shared.

 

I like the updated take, and gives a lot more (and in my opinion, the needed) weight behind how and what RG did and contributed after the siege. It makes what he did more meaningful, more flawed, and in all honesty, a lot more interesting. All the primarchs have flaws, some much more apparent than others, some a lot more subtle, and this line of thinking plays into making RG a much more 3 dimensional character.

 

I have more respect for RG and his decisions, after reading this story, and again, really lays the groundwork for why he did what he did (from this new take, compared to the original). I also agree with WLK, what follows his actions is the only reason the Imperium survives, which again, makes this view on his action mean more (not less) than the previous incarnations. To each their own though, of course.

 

*Edit

@ Legatus

RG would likely never have stopped compiling and learning through the crusade, from his mistakes, his peers, his enemies and his brothers. I got the impression that it was the culmination of all that learning, that was applied to the incredible problem/situation he faced when creating the codex (especially its purpose), and that choosing the best, most stable, most appropriate long view answer and the specific codex doctrine/organization, was what filled the time frame. It couldn't have been easy, but who better to choose the outcome and future of the Imperium?

 

(Example, an artist has a personal collection of 12,000 pieces that he/she has made over their entire career. They are faced with picking 10 items to represent their work (under certain outside circumstances), out of the thousands. What will be used takes time, reflection, comparison and thought.)

[Dorns Padawan]

Has A D-B been given the task of the writing more WE HH stuff? I thought this was still TBA? If so, will Varren be in it?

I said at BL live 2011 & I will say it again, will A D-B get to write the WE novel? I bloody well hope so!!!!!!! For me he has to be the dead cert for it surely (though I wouldn't mind Matt Farrer getting it if not)?!

[DocHorror]

I fail to see how one short story can leave the Ultramarines 'ruined 4EVAR!!' - I believe ADB has stated elsewhere that this story line will get a payoff. The series is still pushing forwards so wait & see where it leads.

[Walter Payton]

Guilliman is not a traitor because of what was said in ADB's story (though that was bad enough). He is a trator because he did not intervene for 7 years while the Heresy was raging on. The Emperor might still be alive today if the Ultramarines had joined in from the start. But instead he chose to spend the time writing his book, which according to previous fluff he had been working on for the entire Great Crusade. But now apparently he made it all up "on the spot" during the Heresy, while the Ultramarines where as unfamiliar with that doctrine as anyone else, instead of those doctrines being tested and refined by the Legion throughout the Great Crusade, as earlier sources would have suggsted. All in all a pretty re****** piece of work from McNeill. I was not expecting it would be this bad.

 

Explain to me what happens in the story. Slowly. This can't be happening.

 

the gist of Rules of Engagement is after the Battle for Calth, Guilliman started a massive retraining of the Ultramarines in order to better combat his brothers (including those that are now known as loyalists. being prepared you see). this culminates in the Codex Astartes.

 

this training was required because Guilliman believed that no matter the outcome of the Heresy, the Imperium as it was known would be destroyed. So instead of rushing off to die on Terra, he began planing for the continued survival of mankind, not the Imperium.

 

Now, what has Legatus screaming into the wind is that while this retraining was taking place, so was the Heresy itself. he believes that the Ultramarine, if they comitted themselves to battle immediately might have had the chance to save the Emperor at Terra.

 

I personally believe that without the massive training the Ultramarines had, and would share amongst their loyalist brethen after the Heresy, we wouldnt have a Imperium of any type by the 41st Mill. so while you can agrue that the delay of the Ultramarines might have caused to Emperor to fall, i see it as the training they undertook allowed them to salvage a Imperium.

 

WLK

 

 

Basically...

 

Original continuity:

Guilliman had been compiling the "doctrine" part of the Codex Astartes during the Great Crusade, and the "regulations" part of teh Codex during the Scouring. The Ultramarines only learn about the Heresy while the Battle for Terra is already under way, at which point they race back to Terra.

 

New continuity:

Nothing of the Codex existed prior to the Heresy. The Ultramarines learn of the Heresy at the start, but Guilliman decides not to rush to his brother's aid, and instead starts compiling the Codex Astartes, whose doctrines the Ultramarines are now trying to adapt in field tests and manouvers, while the rest of the Imperium is fighting for survival.

 

 

Edit:

I personally believe that without the massive training the Ultramarines had, and would share amongst their loyalist brethen after the Heresy, we wouldnt have a Imperium of any type by the 41st Mill. so while you can agrue that the delay of the Ultramarines might have caused to Emperor to fall, i see it as the training they undertook allowed them to salvage a Imperium.

In the fluff we had so far, Guilliman had already been working on the Codex Astartes doctrines throughout the Great Crusade (in the IA:AL he suggested to Alpharius to adopt those doctrines, for example, and he is said to have included Perturabos siege tactics. The Ultramarines were also described as "learning from each engagement, and applying that knowledge to the next" in one of the latses SW/TS books), while the regulations and new organisation for the Space Marines and the Imperial armed forces had been developed after the Heresy, during the Scouring.

In this new retcon, the Ultramarines Legion knew nothing of this Codex doctrine, and was wuite unfamiliar with it during their manouvers and tests. Due to this retcon, which is supposed to justify Guilliman's decisions, the entire justification is not very satisfying.

 

Preiously the Ultramarines were said to not have known about the Heres ysooner. They have now been retconned to have known, but having decided not to act. Their reason for not acting is also based on a retcon, since the Codex Astartes is now considered to just now being written, instead of already being used by the Ultramarines Legion, and being tested and refined for the past years of the Crusade. A clums retcon, only to justify an ugly retcon. Not very elegant.

 

Seeing as Godwin's law has already been proved in the discussion about this on the Ultramarine's thread, I might as well make a comparison with WWII.

 

The general historical consensus is that the popular "Guilty Men" view of the appeasers of Britain and France being cowardly dullards is wrong. Many hold that appeasement was a sensible policy given that Britain and France were unready for war. In this regard, appeasement may be seen not as a stupid or cowardly policy but a farsighted and pragmatic approach to a hugely complex problem. What one has to remember is that Britain and France were in little shape to fight even in 1938 at the time of Munich. The British Commonwealth wouldn't go to war (South Africa and Australia especially so), the British and French people unwilling to (Look at the peace ballot and the OU debates), the French Republic politically unstable, the radar system was not in place, French remarmament was only in its infancy, crucially, the USA was isolationist and the USSR politically unnacceptable thus preventing any hope of the duo acquiring reliable allies.

 

In the same way, Guilliman knew little of the galactic situation. He knew that the Imperium must not also win the war but also win the peace. He had no way of knowing who was on what side. He had no way of knowing the broad military situation. In this regard, I personally feel my respect deepen for Guilliman if what WLK and Legatus told me is true.

 

Traitor, no. Pragmatist, yes.

 

EDIT: Candleshoes has already said it for me. Good man.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i havent checked the UM's subforum debate in a few hours, but somebody broke Godwin's Law already???

 

and i do agree with the Legatus on one thing, i was under the belief the Codex Astartes was already being used by the Ultramarines prior to the outbreak of the Heresy. but as this series is supposed to be doing, we are really learning what occured during the Heresy.

 

apparently everything we know at this point isnt factually accurate. which we already knew. so the release of the Codex was off by a 100 years of so. that doesnt invalidate everything done by Guilliman now. I am taking it as the Codex Astartes was written already, the basic tenets atleast, but the Heresy was so galaxy changing that it warranted a complete new edition with info that previously was unthinkable to the author.

 

and finally, this is the vast grimdark. nothing is safe. just look at the Wolves and how the percertion of them has changed due to Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons.

 

WLK

[Epistolary Exander]

Im not entirely sure Guilliman didnt know what was going on outside of Ultramar during the Heresy. If Garro could travel to & from Calth then its feasible that Guilliman could have sent and/ or recieve messengers from the wider Imperium. Guilliman certainly sent out Nicodemus one of his Hounour Guard to communicate & help loyalist Iron Warriors. That is not exactly appeasement, but its not exactly saving the Big E. Considering the power of the Big E I think it would be far more productive to the Imperium having the Emperor strut around the galaxy for 10k years than forcing the legions to fight in smaller numbers (for which we know the legions did also do). It doesnt make complete sense for Guilliman to appear to be seating on the fence, it makes him open to kind attacks which the Lion endures in current 40k time line.