Masters and Grand Masters and Azrael, oh my!

[FerociousBeast]

I am interested in what the titles of rank in the Inner Circle signify, but as far as I know it's never been clearly defined by GW and the codexes have always presented the ranks somewhat contradictorily. For example, in some places the Chapter Masters of the other Unforgiven chapters are referred to as "Supreme Grand Masters," but in others they are referred to as "Grand Masters." In Azrael's entry in the current codex, it states that he is master even of the Grand Masters of the other Unforgiven chapters. So... if there are Supreme Grand Masters in the other chapters, does this mean that Azrael is master over their subordinates, but not them themselves? Or should we think of the other SGMs as Grand Masters, meaning that Azrael is in charge of the entire Legion? The latter seems clearly to be the intended interpretation, but the lack of consistency in naming conventions casts this conclusion in shadow.

 

Furthermore, another important question is this: are the ranks Master and Grand Master tied to the Chapter command structure, or are they solely related to the person's level of revelation in the mysteries of the Inner Circle? Or could there be parallel tracks, one for command and one for revelation, that employ similar titles?

 

I'm going to attempt to draw a coherent structure out of this morass of possibilities and contradictions. To start with, I will present some information that we do know, all drawn from the most current hard source of official fluff we possess, Codex Dark Angels, 4E:

 

1) There are four known titles: Master, Company Master, Grand Master, Supreme Grand Master.

2) Azrael, the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, is called the Supreme Grand Master and is said to be master over the Grand Masters of the other chapters.

3) Therefore, there are at least Grand Masters in the other chapters.

4) Ezekiel is the Grand Master of the Librarium.

5) Sammael is NOT a Grand Master. The Master of the Ravenwing is never referred to as a Grand Master.

6) Molochia, an Interrogator-Chaplain, is referred to as a Master.

7) Company Masters lead Companies.

8) Everyone who has been referred to as a Master or greater is a part of the Inner Circle.

 

My first conclusion that I would like to draw from this information is that separating level of revelation from Chapter hierarchy is probably not wise. If an Inner Circularian (coined a new name there) is not entrusted with command, they are not entrusted with knowledge, and vice versa. There are some problems with this idea, though. There is the example of the apothecary in Angels of Darkness who is apparently a high-ranking member of the IC, at least as high as the Interrogator-Chaplain in command. However, there is no mention that I can remember that either is even a Master, let alone a Grand Master. So perhaps they are both simply mid-level Inner Circularians, like Brother Bethor (who is not mentioned as a Master).

 

Conclusion 1: In the Inner Circle, command and revelation always come together, never apart.

 

So, with Conclusion 1, Conclusion 2 becomes easy: Master rank is granted to brothers who have been granted some measure of authority in their specialty, and Grand Master rank is granted to those who are in command of their area of specialty. So Master Molochia and Master Asmodai would be Chaplains of rank and authority, and Grand Master Sapphon would be their immediate superior as well as the overall commander of the Reclusiam. Similarly, an Epistolary would probably be of Master rank, and would be under the command of the Grand Master of the Librarium, Ezekiel.

 

Conclusion 2: Masters are brothers who have been granted authority in their area of specialty, and Grand Masters are those who occupy the highest level of command and responsibility in their area of specialty.

 

Where does this leave Company Masters? Company Masters are simply Masters who are in charge of a Company. So Master Sammael of the 2nd Company and Master Gesundheit of the 7th Company would be peers of Master Asmodai of the Reclusiam. But who is the Grand Master of the Company Masters? Well, we know that the Master of the Deathwing is a Grand Master, so let us assume that the Grand Master of the 1st Company is the Grand Master of all the fighting companies.

 

Conclusion 3: Company Masters are Masters in the soldier specialty who have been given command of a Company. The Grand Master of the Deathwing is the commander of all the Company Masters.

 

Finally, what about the Chapter Master? What is his rank? Is he a Grand Master or a Supreme Grand Master? If he is in command of all the Grand Masters, shouldn't that make him a Supreme Grand Master? Well, perhaps, and the fluff has occasionally indicated this. However, the freshest fluff calls the Chapter Masters of other chapters Grand Masters only. The bit in CDA4E that mentions SGMs in other Chapters is copied from older sources. And, if Azrael is indeed the Supreme Grand Master of all Grand Masters, it would seem most logical to assume that there can only be one Supreme. So I conclude that the other chapters are led by Grand Masters who also possess the title Chapter Master. In matters of organization and warfare, he is supreme within his own chapter. But in the secret sanctum of his Chapter's Inner Circle, he occupies the more complicated position of "first among equals," a Grand Master like the Masters of the Deathwing, Reclusiam, Librarium, and Apothecarian. His counsel on matters relating to the secret quests of the Inner Circle is officially of equal weight. On the field of battle, though, his word is supreme.

 

Conclusion 4: Each Successor Chapter of the Dark Angels is led by a Chapter Master who, in his Inner Circle, is ranked as a Grand Master.

 

Conclusion 5: The Supreme Grand Master possesses both the command of the entire former Legion and its most hidden secrets.

 

So to bring all of our conclusions together:

 

1) In the Inner Circle, command and revelation always come together, never apart.

 

2) Masters are brothers who have been granted authority in their area of specialty, and Grand Masters are those who occupy the highest level of command and responsibility in their area of specialty.

 

3) Company Masters are Masters in the soldier specialty who have been given command of a Company. The Grand Master of the Deathwing is the commander of all the Company Masters.

 

4) Each Successor Chapter of the Dark Angels is led by a Chapter Master who, in his Inner Circle, is ranked as a Grand Master.

 

5) The Supreme Grand Master possesses both the command of the entire former Legion and its most hidden secrets.

 

 

There we have it! My attempt at demystifying the Masters of the Inner Circle. Thoughts? Comments? Disagreements?

[GlauG]

Makes sense at a cursory glance. So we get;

 

Librarium:

 

Grand Master Ezekiel

Masters (Epistolary level Librarians)

Other Librarians who are presumably members of the Deathwing by default.

 

Reclusiam;

 

Grand Master Sapphon

Masters (Interrogator Chaplains)

Chaplains, who again are members of the Deathwing, but know only lesser mysteries.

 

 

And presumably the Apothecaries have their own similar level of organisation, perhaps lacking a Grand Master.

[FerociousBeast]

I would not place the Librarians and Chaplains automatically in the Deathwing. Some may have served in the 1st Company, but I don't think all do. Also, I think the current codex is clear that company Chaplains are not privy to knowledge of the Fall, and so were never part of the Deathwing.

 

I would certainly place the Apothecarian in this structure. There would be a Grand Master of the Apothecarian, Master Apothecaries, and then lesser Apothecaries, some of whom may know nothing of the Fall.

 

The Techmarines, however, are interesting. We know there's a Master of the Forge who is initiated into the secret knowledge of the Chapter, but who is not privy to the most important secrets. Which would coincide nicely with his rank of Master. The Techmarines alone do not have a Grand Master among their ranks, but instead are led at the highest level by a relatively lowly Master.

 

 

EDIT: In dwelling on the uninitiated apothecaries, I remembered that the Reclusiam has uninitiated members as well, the company chaplains. It would also make sense for the Librarium to withhold certain information from its newest members, the Lexicaniums, who are just beginning to explore their psychic potential. You certainly wouldn't want to give delicate information to someone who is just learning telepathy, for example!

 

If true that Librarians, Chaplains, and Apothecaries often aren't knowledgeable of the Fall, that would parallel very nicely with the fact that the lowest level of the fighting formations--the Battle-Brother of the 3rd through 10th Companies--also aren't knowledgeable of the Fall.

[The Shadow Guard]

Hey FB, the idea is not to unravel the confusion, which keeps outsiders utterley confused about the inner workings of the unforgiven!! :blush: Pretty good take you have.

 

One factor I ave always tried to emphasize is that the titles Master, Grandmaster and Supreme Grandmaster are titles of rank similar to Captain, Major and Lieutenant (That's looteant for some of you) General while the position Master of a Company is a title of position ( ie commander of a brigade or division). Just as a brigade be commanded by a major, or captain or general depending on the exigencies of the circumstances, so the Master of a particular company may be a batle brother holding the rank of Master or Grandmaster.

 

Thus, the Master of the Reclusium is the Grandmaster of Chaplians, the Master of the Librarium is the Grandmaster of Librarians, Master of the first company is usually a Master and not a grandmaster level and so on and so forth...

 

May be makes sense amy be not....

 

SG

[Brother Landrain]

I think I agree with just about everything...

 

In the Inner Circle, command and revelation always come together, never apart.

 

Supreme Grand Master: possesses both the command of the entire former Legion and its most hidden secrets.

 

Grand Master: is the Chapter Master of Successor Chapters of the Dark Angels.

 

Grand Master of the Deathwing: The commander of all the Company Masters.

 

Master of the X Company: are given command of a Company.

 

Grand Master: Grand Masters are those who occupy the highest level of command and responsibility in their area of specialty.

• Librarium
  
• Reclusiarch
  
• Apothecarium
  

 

Master: are brothers who have been granted authority in their area of specialty.

 

Deathwing: is Introductory level to the Circles..

 

All other DA Are Battle Brothers.

 

 

To expand some on other positions.

 

Chaplains are Not in the Inner Circle normally, but they may be at DW level of introduction. they need to become Interogator Chaplains to join the IC. C:DA p37 par.3

 

Interogator Chaplains are Always Inner Circle. Would be a Master.

 

With no real description of the Command Squad and their relation to the Inner Circle, I would assume that they are Deathwing level, Circle, as they would be each Masters consuel. And would thus know more that Battle Brothers.

 

Company Veterans, I am torn on, I assume they are Deathwing.

 

Vet Sergeants, Not Deathwing.

 

Techmarines, Never Inner Circle, there should be a few Deathwing Techmarines though.

 

Master of the Forge, Always Inner Circle, ~ Master level. (someone has to keep the inside of the rock working)

 

Librarians Always Inner Circle although ~ Master Level

 

Epistolary Librarian would be a Master.

 

 

Note: When I say Deathwing, I do not necessarilly mean 1st company. It is just the first circle of initiation, for lack of a better term. Since we know Deathwing know SOME secrets..

[Frater Uriah]

Company Veterans, I am torn on, I assume they are Deathwing.

I was always of the impression that the Company Veterans were still waiting in the wings, so to speak, to become Deathwing, and that they weren't included in that body yet.

[FerociousBeast]

It's pretty clear in the codex that Company Veterans are not and have never been part of the Deathwing.

[con-fusion]

Because this is a different part of the forum, I will repeat my thoughts here.

 

There are a whole lot of layers that must be considered to make sense of this, and, I think, C:DA4 is an imperfect guide because it is contradicted in other sources and does not give a complete picture.

 

I think there is an Unforgiven-level Inner Circle. This is led by Azrael as the Supreme Grand Master and is made up of each Chapter's Grand Master (Chapter Master), Master of DW (also called Grand Master in some places), Master of RW (also called Grand Master in some places but not C:DA4), Master of the Librarians (also called a Grand Master in some places), and Master of the Chaplains (also called a Grand Master in some places). It is unclear whether Apothecaries and Techmarines would be represented at this level (though the Techmarines effectively would be if we go for a blast from the past and make the highest level techmarines Chaplain Artificers). The line-up for the DA in the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle would be Azrael, Belial, Sammael, Ezekiel, and Sapphon. We don't have any special characters for the other Unforgiven Chapters yet, so the line-up for them at this level would be generic.

 

In addition to the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle, I think there is are Chapter-level Inner Circles. Each Chapter-level Inner Circle is led by the Chapter's Grand Master (Chapter Master), and includes all Masters (Company Captains), Master of Librarians, Master of Claplains, Master of the Techmarines, Interrogator Chaplains, and many, if not all, Librarians. It is unclear whether Apothecaries would be represented at this level. Techmarines (other than the MotF) and regular Chaplains in the past have not been included here, but we could play with that some with the change to Chaplain Artificers and a shift in the status of Chaplains. The line-up for the DA would include be Azrael, Belial, Sammael, the other Masters, Ezekiel, Sapphon, Asmodai, etc. The other Unforgiven Chapters are limited to generics at this time.

 

Next, I see Company-level Inner Circles. These are made up of each Master (Company Captain), anybody in his Company who has been inducted into Deathwing and, possibly, non-Deathwing ICs assigned to his Company. Inner Circles at this level are probably fairly fluid as marines die, are promoted, get moved to other Companies, etc.

 

Although the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle sets policy for the Unforgiven as a whole, and may take direct control of certain operations (notably the Hunt for the Fallen, but maybe more), the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle does not generally directly control the actions of each Unforgiven Chapter. This is refected at the Chapter-level and Company-level Inner Circles. For example, the Unforgven-level Inner Circle believes that an Unforgiven presence is necessary on a particular world, and determines that the Angels of Absolution are in range and have availability. The Inner Circle of the Angels of Absolution decides who to send and what their overall mission goals will be in order to achieve the goals of the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle. The Master in charge of the force sent to said planet decides what to do when he gets there to achieve the specific mission goals set out by the Angels of Absolution Inner Circle. At each level, the Unforgiven operate independently but are part of a greater whole.

 

So, here's what I think this means:

 

Azrael = Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Supreme Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle, in RT terms this would be the equivalent rank of Lt Commmander as he would be the 2nd in command to the Lion and the leader of a Battle Company.

 

Generic Chapter Master = Grand Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Supreme Grand Master of a Successor Chapter's Inner Circle, in RT terms this would be the equivalent rank of Major as he would be the leader of a Battle Company.

 

Belial = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle, Master of the DA DW Inner Circle, in RT Terms this would be the equivalent rank of Captain as he would be the leader of a Company; however, it is arguable that he would carry more weight than an ordinary Captain because he is Azrael's most likely successor and may, therefore, have some seniority over the Masters of the other DA Companies and possible over Masters of Companies of the Successor Chapters in joint operations.

 

Generic Master of the DW = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Successor Chapter Inner Circle, Master of a Successor Chapter DW Inner Circle, in RT Terms this would be the equivalent rank of Captain as he would be the leader of a Company but with seniority similar to Belial

 

Sammael = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle (Maybe not in here at all?), Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle (Maybe a Master of the DA Inner Circle instead?), Master of the DA RW Inner Circle, in RT Terms this would be the equivalent rank of Captain as he would be the leader of a Company, but, again, with special seniority and power in certain situations, and may have the right to lead in multiple-Chapter joint RW operations.

 

Generic Master of the RW = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle (Maybe not in here at all?), Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle (Maybe a Master of the DA Inner Circle instead?), Master of the DA RW Inner Circle, in RT Terms this would be the equivalent rank of Captain as he would be the leader of a Company, but with seniority similar to Sammael.

 

Generic Master of # Company = Master of particular Chapter's Inner Circle, Master of particular Company's Inner Circle, in RT Terms this would be the equivalent rank of Captain

 

Ezekiel = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle, Grand Master of the DA Librarians (Chief Librarian), might have seniority over all other Unforgiven Librarians

 

Generic Grand Master Librarians = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Successor Chapter Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Successor Chapter's Librarians (Chief Librarian)

 

Sapphon = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of the DA Inner Circle, Grand Master of the DA Chaplains (Reclusiarch), might have seniority over all other Unforgiven Librarians

 

Generic Grand Master Chaplains = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Successor Chapter Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Successor Chapter's Chaplains (Reclusiarch)

 

Generic Grand Master Apothecary = Master of the Unforgiven Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Chapter Inner Circle, Grand Master of a Chapter's Apothecaries, maybe DA version has seniority over other Unforgiven Apothecaries (NOTE: None of this is supported textualy, but it makes sense).

 

Asmodai = Master of the DA Inner Circle, Interrogator Chaplain, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

Generic Interrogator Chaplains = Master of a particular Chapter Inner Circle, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

Generic Epistolary = Master of a particular Chapter Inner Circle, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

Generic Master Apothecary = Master of a particular Chapter Inner Circle, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

Generic Chaplain = Lots of room for argument here, I would go against the C:DA4 fluff and say that they are inducted into Deathwing in the "little d" sense of the term but agree that they are not part of the Unforgiven or Chapter-level Inner Circles, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

Generic Lexicanum = Lots of room for argument here and the fluff is all over the place, I would say that they are inducted into Deathwing in the "little d" sense of the term but that they are not part of the Unforgiven or Chapter-level Inner Circles, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

Generic Apothecary = Lots of room for argument here and the fluff is all over the place, I would say that they are inducted into Deathwing in the "little d" sense of the term but that they are not part of the Unforgiven or Chapter-level Inner Circles, when assigned to a particular Company included in Company Inner Circle

 

This brings me to Techmarines, where the least development has been done by GW and the approach makes little or no sense (see the Project:Unforgiven threads for detailed discussion).

 

I would switch things up a bit here and do away with the MotF (per C:DA4 follows Mars and is part of the Inner Circle, but not trusted and not really part of the Inner Circle) as being an idiotic implementation of C:SM4 ideas without proper vetting in terms of the Unforgiven.

 

I would argue that the Unforgiven have a structure that harkens back to the RT days when the keepers and maintainers of a Chapter's most secret and sacred technology was placed in the hands of Chaplain Artificers (GW's term, not mine). I would still have Techmarines trained on Mars, and the basic Techmarine would not be trusted enough for inclusion in any Inner Circle, including teh Inner Circles of the Companies to which they are assigned. Techmarines are given orders and consulted regarding the capabilities of the technology available. That's it. Master Techmarines are those that the Chaplains and Librarians have found to be truly loyal to the Unforgiven, and this is one of their duties. Master Techmarines may be inducted into the "little d" Deathwing, but they still are not trusted enough to be part of any Inner Circle outside of a Company-level Inner Circle. Chaplain Artificers are the top of the heap and are included in the Chapter-level Inner Circles in the same way as Masters. They are represented at the Unforgiven-level Inner Circle by the Grand Master of the Chaplains (similar to Interrogator Chaplains). I would be interested in creating a Chaplain Artificer special character who is also the Grand Master of his Chapter's Chaplains (see the Project:Unforgiven thread for my preliminary proposals for a special character named The Consecrator).

 

++ Added bolding to make it easier to follow. I ++

[Octavulg]

I generally agree with all of this (con-fusion's structure seems solid), though I think individual charisma and various Chapters of course play some degree of havoc with official structure - some Masters may be more influential than some Grand Masters, and I would expect lots of it may be convention rather than explicitly acknowledged structure.

 

That said, the Ravenwing know some secrets, so are presumably the real "introductory" level. The Deathwing, I would say, know what happened, but not all the details of why or what happened after.

 

I'd say lower-level Lexicanii are likely in, low-level Chaplains are out, and other specialists are out as well (generally).

[con-fusion]

Agreed. Personaly charisma, heroic status, and certain special designations would move things around a bit. For example, if the Lord Cypher was still in the structure, where would he fit in? Would there be only one, or one for each chapter?

 

And, thanks to Isiah (I believe) for the bolding. I didn't realize how big that post had gotten.

[Octavulg]

Oh hell, I'll inflict my suppositions upon you all anyway. :D

 

Structure:

 

Supreme Grand Master - ranges somewhere between absolute master and first-among-equals, depending on who you ask and the particular SGM. Held by the Grand Master of the Dark Angels.

 

Grand Master of the Chapter, the First Company, the Librarium, the Apothecarion, and the Reclusiam. There might be a few others, depending on an individual chapter's structure or individual achievement. Things like Grand Master of the Fleet (whether chapter fleets or the fleet of the Unforgiven as a whole), or Grand Master of the Monastery, or something like that.

 

Masters - as others have mentioned, these titles need not necessarily come with a rank, though the Company Masters obviously do. They would make up the 'executive council' of the Inner Circle of a Chapter. The Initiates get to watch the meetings, but these guys get to talk. They may be allowed to attend the meetings of the Unforgiven Inner Circle (though I would suspect it's invitation-only).

 

'Initiate' - Basically, Deathwing members. All the people who know about the Fallen but aren't Masters. I'd say they'd formally be members of the Deathwing (or equivalent), even if they never wore TDA and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a power sword.

 

'Acolyte' - Ravenwing members and others partially initiated into the Serious Secrets.

 

Brothers - Everybody else.

 

The three levels of Inner Circle make sense to me, but I'd also see lots of sub-circles and unofficial circles. I'd say the natural tendency of the Dark Angels is to form a circle when in doubt, so while there might be the two big Inner Circles in a chapter (the Chapter's Inner Circle and the Unforgiven Inner Circle), I'd see Reclusiam circles, Company circles, etc, formed for varying reasons and lasting varying times.

 

EDIT: As FB pointed out, the MotRW is not the GMotRW. Edited accordingly.

[con-fusion]

The three levels of Inner Circle make sense to me, but I'd also see lots of sub-circles and unofficial circles. I'd say the natural tendency of the Dark Angels is to form a circle when in doubt, so while there might be the two big Inner Circles in a chapter (the Chapter's Inner Circle and the Unforgiven Inner Circle), I'd see Reclusiam circles, Company circles, etc, formed for varying reasons and lasting varying times.

 

Absolutely agree. Throw a couple of Unforgiven together, and you will invariably get a circle. Who is in charge, the purpose of the circle, and its status as official depend on the circle.

[Lion El Jason]

As far as I remember, the term "Supreme Grand Master" is only Azrael, none of the successor chapters call their commander Supreme Grand Master.

 

Company Master is just an extra title, not a rank. Belial is a company master as he commands a company, he is a grand master in rank though.

A company master could also be a master.

 

Similarly the Dark Angels have a Grand Master of Librarians, Grand Master of chaplains etc... Other chapters have only a Master of Librarians as their chief librarian rank.

 

Company veterans... well they were forced on us and really don't fit with any previous background but the name implies they are just the best the battle company has to offer, but not yet 1st company material.

 

Remember in the most recent codex a "Tidying" change was made so that the Deathwing refers to the first company. The "Club" that all the librarians, chaplains and commanders are in is now the inner circle.

[FerociousBeast]

Grand Master of ... the Second Company

Agreed more or less with everything except this. The Second Company's Master is nowhere said to be a Grand Master in the current codex. I know cause I looked, thinking that surely Sammael must also be a GM. When I didn't find him in there, that's what solidified my thinking about the Master of the Deathwing, being the only GM in the companies, as the immediate commander of all the Dark Angels' fighting formations.

[Octavulg]

FB:

 

Good point. Edited accordingly.

 

LEJ:

 

Similarly the Dark Angels have a Grand Master of Librarians, Grand Master of chaplains etc... Other chapters have only a Master of Librarians as their chief librarian rank.

 

Er...proof of that?

[con-fusion]

Grand Master of ... the Second Company

Agreed more or less with everything except this. The Second Company's Master is nowhere said to be a Grand Master in the current codex. I know cause I looked, thinking that surely Sammael must also be a GM. When I didn't find him in there, that's what solidified my thinking about the Master of the Deathwing, being the only GM in the companies, as the immediate commander of all the Dark Angels' fighting formations.

 

This is correct. Sammael was once mentioned as a Grand Master, but not in C:DA4 where he is only referred to as Master. Then again, C:DA4 is a complete mess. Depending on where you look Belial is a Master or a Grand Master, Azrael is a Supreme Grand Master or a Grand Master, etc. Dealing with this was a big topic of discussion in the Project Unforgiven threads. No decisions were ever made, but it was agreed to leave things ambiguous as the mystery is part of the fun. My mega post above is merely my take. It ties up neatly with the totality of the fluff, but so do a whole pile of other structures from complete independence for the Chapters and no role for the Inner Circle (taken as a lone monolithic group) outside of the Hunt for the Fallen to complete dominance of the Inner Circle over everything all the Unforgiven Chapters do.

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought it went

 

Chapter Command-

Supreme Grand Master (Dark Angel Only)

 

Grand Master (Successor Chapters CM)

 

Master (Co Masters)

 

Deathwing-

Grand Master of the Deathwing (Dark Angels 1st Co Master, PH 1st Cpt Equiv)

 

Master of the Deathwing (Successors)

 

Ravenwing-

Master of the Ravenwings (Dark Angels and Successors)

 

Librarius-

Grand Master of the Librarians (Dark Angels only)

 

Master of the Librarians (Successors)

 

Chaplains-

Grand Master of Chaplains (Dark Angels only)

 

Master of Chaplains (Successors only)

 

I've always thought the Deathwing and Successor DWs to be more akin to a literal army in service of the Inner Circle, each portion spread across the galaxy, reporting to Belial ultimately.

 

From this you can make several unit entries and special characters:

HQ:

-Grand Masters (CM equivalent entry)

-Masters (Cpt Equiv)

-Master of the Librarians (Epistolary Equiv)

-Master of the Chaplains (Reclusiarch Equiv)

 

Special Characters:

-Azrael, Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven

-Belial, Grand Master of the Deathwing

-Sammael, Master of the Dark Angels Ravenwing

-Ezekial, Grand Master of Librarians

-Sapphon/Asmodai, Grand Master of Chaplains

 

Elites

-Librarian (Lib Equiv)

-Interrogator-Chaplain (Chap Equiv)

 

This would give you the option to use counts as to represent a rough and tough character or the actual character itself.

[con-fusion]

This would represent a more monolithic structure, where the DA Inner Circle is the Inner Circle, and controls the Unforgiven as a whole.

[Isiah]

The use of 'Master' and 'Grand Master' is used pretty haphazardly by GW, only 'Supreme Grand Master' seems strictly defined (although even Azrael is referred to as 'Commander' in the Codex).

 

However, reading page 73 of the Codex – it would seem that the Chapter Masters of Successor chapters are also known as Supreme Grand Masters – just to complicate the issue :D.

 

As SG stated earlier – I too think that some of these titles are honoury. If you look at the Chapter org chart on page 15,

you will see both Belial and Sammy hold the rank of Master of their respective companies, but Belial and a predecessor, Bekenel, are called 'Grand Masters of the Deathwing' as a matter of honour and respect.

 

So my IC rankings are thus:

 

Supreme Grand Master

• The Commander of the Dark Angels [but possibly an Unforgiven Chapter Commander too].

 

Grand Masters

• [Possibly the Commanders of Successor Chapters if they aren't SGMs]

• Master (leader) of the Chaplaincy and Master (leader) of the Librarius (other arms too like the Fleet, Armoury, The Rock etc).

• Also the honoury title for the incumbent Master of the Deathwing.

 

By the way – GMs are privy to all but the most secret of secrets – only the Commander of the DA knows more.

 

Masters

• Those who lead and serve within a Company.

• Those of high rank within the Chaplaincy, Librarius etc etc. Giving those arms a bit of a career ladder.

 

 

To me it makes more sense that each Successor chapter would have its own SGM otherwise their ranking systems don;t really work. Azrael would then be the SGM of SGMs :P.

 

 

 

Much simplifed and de-stratisfied, but I've no doubt that within the ranks of the IC there are subtle differences within the Grand Master hierarchy.

 

 

Cheers

I

[Brother Landrain]

It's pretty clear in the codex that Company Veterans are not and have never been part of the Deathwing.

 

But that is Deathwing the company.. or deathwing the organization?

 

Company Veterans are fearless, so they are beyond being just a battle brother status...

 

That's what i was saying in the heirchy, it gets sketchy from Deathwing to veterans to Ravenwing to battle brothers...

[Octavulg]

Company Veterans are Deathwing-level experience in an untrustworthy package. Fearless is thus justifiable. Though I think Stubborn fits better.

[puck]

I had never thought of the organization of the IC like this before. I'd always thought it to be much larger. That means that assuming 10 known successors there are only about 1000-1100 IC members total with only about 100-110 above master level and presumably heavily involved with the fallen search. No wonder they've captured so few fallen comparatively speaking (they've had 10k years). Space Marines aren't known for being chatty Dark Angels least of all. Maybe they should recruit more members into the IC. Seems like its a lot easier to find something when the people helping you know what it looks like.

[FerociousBeast]

But that is Deathwing the company.. or deathwing the organization?

It's not helpful to make this distinction. In the current codex, Deathwing means only one thing: the 1st Company. Azrael is not a part of the Deathwing, despite his rules in 2nd and 3rd edition. According to the Chapter organization chart, he is a member only of the Inner Circle.

 

 

Another reason why I object to thinking of the Inner Circle as part of the Deathwing, according to the short story "Deathwing," the actual term Deathwing itself comes from the Plains Indians of whatever planet it was that the terminators were rescuing from the Genestealers. But we know that the Inner Circle is far older, dating back to a time when the Dark Angels recruited from Caliban. So the Inner Circle would have been instituted long before the name Deathwing was applied to the 1st Company.

[Octavulg]

That story was never particularly clear whether the Deathwing was named after the bird or the bird was named after the Deathwing.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

That story was never particularly clear whether the Deathwing was named after the bird or the bird was named after the Deathwing.

 

Either way, when I think "Deathwing" I think of the First Company.. That is the organisation.