Brother iKon Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Codex Dark Angels page 14 "The Chapter relies on a large support staff, and highly ranked members include the Victuallers and the Grand Masters of the Fleet, the Arsenal, Recruits and the Watch" Perhaps these Grand Masters are not masters of a company but additional officers on page 15 all of the companys are listed as having "Masters" and "Grand Masters" are listed seperatly in the Inner circle box. Incidetally also listed it the Inner Circle box is the "Master of the Forge" Whom i took to be the senior Techmarine in the chapter but Page 11 states "Natably, the Techmarines are not members of the Inner Circle, for thier oaths to the Mechanicus of Mars are incompatable with those required by the Inner Circle." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2643810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Good catch on those other Grand Masters. The senior Techmarine is a member of the Inner Circle, and so is listed there. The relevant reference is: "Only the highest ranking Techmarine, the Master of the Forge, is trusted enough to be part to some of the secrets of the Inner Circle, and it is his duty to maintain the dungeons and secret places in the Rock." So, the Master of the Forge is privy to some information, but only enough for him to aid in keeping the dark secret places of the Chapter oiled and running properly. Accordingly he bears only the title of "Master" rather than "Grand Master", as he has not been let in on enough information to be worthy of the rank "Grand Master of the Forge". Sapphon is "Grand Master of Chaplains". As there are many "Grand Masters" within a Chapter, and the Chapter Master is also a "Grand Master"(with Azrael being a "Supreme Grand Master" to denote primacy over the Unforgiven). As has been noted, none of the Company level commanders are Grand Masters. Grand Masters are only found among command personnel that serve outside of the Company structure, and as the codex notes they are all space marines. That command structure is the Inner Circle. Among the Unforgiven Chapters, these are the known ranks(somebody add to them if they find any more), and the groups to which they belong: Inner Circle Titles/Members *Supreme Grand Master, Keeper of the Truth(a.k.a. Azrael; presumably the Successors call their main leaders "Grand Master of the Chapter" or something similar) *Grand Master of the Librarium, Holder of the Keys *Grand Master of Chaplains, Finder of Secrets *Grand Master of the Fleet *Grand Master of the Arsenal *Grand Master of Recruits *Grand Master of the Watch *Master of the Forge *Grand Master of the Deathwing *Master of the Ravenwing *Master of the 3rd Company *Master of the 4th Company *Master of the 5th Company *Master of the 6th Company *Master of the 7th Company *Master of the 8th Company *Master of the 9th Company *Master of the 10th Company *All Librarians *Interrogator-Chaplains Deathwing Members *All members of the 1st Company other than Belial Non-Deathwing/Inner Circle *Everyone else not already mentioned Older codices give a bit more info in saying that any Master or Grand Master is a member of the Inner Circle. That can be used to vet the Grand Masters of the Fleet, Arsenal, Recruits, and Watch as members of the Inner Circle. The status of Librarians, Chaplains, and Interrogator Chaplains greatly changed in the current codex, with most of them being bumped from Deathwing to Inner Circle. Only the status of Chaplains now remains in question, as no firm answer is given as to whether or not they begin outside of the Deathwing or within it; just that their journey to becoming Interrogator-Chaplains, and thus a part of the Inner Circle, is convoluted. Lovely. As to the Deathwing /Inner Circle thing, various codices refer to individuals progressing through the ranks of the Deathwing to join the Inner Circle. Inner Circle members would therefore refer to themselves as a member of the Inner Circle. Inner Circle is beyond Deathwing. It would now seems to be simply graduating to a new level. You don’t need to say you are Deathwing when you are Inner Circle, as the only way to get there is to have progressed through the Deathwing and so go beyond it. It is a requirement. I think the rules are what muddle things. “Unit X has the Deathwing rule.”, but is described as being a member of the Inner Circle. The latest codex, having done away with the Deathwing rule, no longer references Deathwing membership for Inner Circle members, but the codex does still mention progression from Deathwing to Inner Circle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2643916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 based on what i have read brothers get promoted to deathwing from whichever company then work through the ranks of DW before being given command of their own company presumably once they are promoted out of the deathwing they then become members of the inner circle as natural human curiosity which i presume would also become superhuman would l;ead them to enquire into rumours and discover more secrets as for librarians and chaplains i would presume that just like battle brothers they are seen first and foremost as weapons of the astartes and wouldhave a role to perform before even being considered for dw or inner circle Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2644719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Note, though, that in other chapters the Masters of the Watch, Arsenal, Fleet etc. are normal Captains (or at least they are in the Ultramarines). So there may be some overlap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2644771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 There's likely overlap, because you have two different organization tables you're trying to superimpose on each other. There's the DA/Unforgiven chain of command and the Inncer Circle. While higher rank does generally mean that a person knows more about the Inner Circle and its goal, I've yet to see anything that specifies that Grand Master/Master/etc. is anything other than a term of military rank. Why would the IC, who are trying to keep their secret kept, blatantly label high ranking members with titles that are known to everyone? "Hey, Cassiel, weren't you just Master of the 3rd Company yesterday? Why is everyone calling you Grand Master today? Did I miss the promotion ceremony?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2644909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Being known as a Grand Master doesn't mean everyone knows that you know some secret. It just means that you are now a part of the Chapter's upper command structure that is resposnible fo rthe entire chapter as whole, not just for single Company. Also, the only ranks that would be open for a Company Master to achieve a Grand Master title would be: *Supreme Grand Master, Keeper of the Truth(a.k.a. Azrael; presumably the Successors call their main leaders "Grand Master of the Chapter" or something similar) *Grand Master of the Fleet *Grand Master of the Arsenal *Grand Master of Recruits *Grand Master of the Watch Each of those positions has obvious responsibilities completely unrelated to just knowing some secrets that others don't. I find it a bit uninteresting that practically everything has now been crammed into the Inner Circle in the latest codex. Chaplains/Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarians are mostly affected by these changes. Under the current rendition of things, the Inner Circle really needs to be mapped out on flow chart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2645087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Being convoluted is the point. I think of medieval Christendom were a Bishop at place A could hold more influence than an Archbishop at place B. Especially considering that the inner circle power is not based in command structure, albeit it probably helps. I personally feel that, in regards to at least the any Chapter that sees themselves part of the Unforgiven, Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven. Then you have a Supreme Grand Master of each Chapter. The supreme is there to throw away confusion; as many titles seem only traditional. So while you may have Grand Masters of different departments, everyone knows the Supreme is the Supreme :) My two cents ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2645765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 what if the innermost circle was azrael, ezekiel and sapphon as supreme grandmasters of their respective job role after that you then have the master of the 1st company is also the grand master of the respective chapter so belial would be the grandmaster of the dark angels and so on. asmodai would be the grandmaster of the 'clergy' for the dark angels and an as yet unnamed librarian would be the grand master of the librarium of the dark angels (each successor would have their own versions) forming an outer circle from the supreme grandmasters then you have the master of each corresponding company, chaplain and librarian who then form another layer of the circle then you have deathwing veterans followed by deathwing initiates will see if i can come up with a diagram to help better show what i mean when i have time over the weekend Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2646021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Also, the only ranks that would be open for a Company Master to achieve a Grand Master title would be: *Supreme Grand Master, Keeper of the Truth(a.k.a. Azrael; presumably the Successors call their main leaders "Grand Master of the Chapter" or something similar) *Grand Master of the Fleet *Grand Master of the Arsenal *Grand Master of Recruits *Grand Master of the Watch Grand Master of the Deathwing. The pages of the codex dealing with Belial give his title as Grand Master and mention his predecessor as also being Grand Master of the Deathwing. The Master of the Ravenwing, however, has no such distinction mentioned in Sammael's pages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2646986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Also, the only ranks that would be open for a Company Master to achieve a Grand Master title would be: *Supreme Grand Master, Keeper of the Truth(a.k.a. Azrael; presumably the Successors call their main leaders "Grand Master of the Chapter" or something similar) *Grand Master of the Fleet *Grand Master of the Arsenal *Grand Master of Recruits *Grand Master of the Watch Grand Master of the Deathwing. The pages of the codex dealing with Belial give his title as Grand Master and mention his predecessor as also being Grand Master of the Deathwing. The Master of the Ravenwing, however, has no such distinction mentioned in Sammael's pages. this also supports what i mentioned in the previous post. presuming that only the master of the 1st company is called grandmaster. i would assume also that his own circle would contain grandmasters of their personal role within the chapter as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2647213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Yes, Belial is a Grand Master. So much for GW's headers, let alone consistency. That leaves only one out of the ten, and with the importance of the Deathwing, that is not surprising. Time for some previous post editing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2647540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Another factor to consider is this: Sammael's entry says something about how "the Company and Grand Masters" affirmed his promotion to head the Ravenwing unanimously. While this isn't definitive one way or the other, it is interesting that GW makes a distinction between Company Masters and Grand Masters. At the very least, this is definite proof that one can be a Company Master without also being a Grand Master. It is not proof, however, that you cannot be both a Company and Grand Master. Another factor: in the Company Master entry, it describes how Company Masters have other titles, some of which correspond to the Grand Masters mentioned in shabbadoo's post. That would indicate that a Company Master might also be a Grand Master if he's been given command of the Watch. Or, perhaps, since it says "Grand Master of the Watch" in one place and "Master of the Watch" in other, this is yet another instance of two people writing fluff from two different perspectives, or copy/pasting old fluff into juxtaposition with new fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2647862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jainar Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I am just more inclined to believe that GW just doesn't have a consistent method for applying those titles... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2648105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 GW have never been consistent with applying anything but hopefully we can find a way around this with the DA and they might take note for a change Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2648112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 While possible, for the Dark Angels the special Grand Master positions seem more likely to all be separate postings. *Grand Master of the Fleet- effectively the Chapter's fleet admiral, so it's not like this would be a Company Master who would ever lead troops in battle on the ground. That would be like asking a navy admiral to lead the Marines Corps in battle. Practically guaranteed to be a completely separate posting for a veteran commander with a knack for fleet tactics. **Grand Master of the Arsenal- being responsible for the equipping of, and resupply of, weapons, armor, ammo, etc. to the entire Chapter would seemingly preclude having enough spare time to fly out into the universe and command armies in the field. Very likely a separate posting. *Grand Master of Recruits- could be an additional title for the 10th Company Master, though this does not seem as likely with the Dark Angels as it would with other Chapters that recruit from a single home world. For example, the Grand Master of Recruits might be solely responsible for visiting the many worlds that the Dark Angels recruit from, and then for beginning the training of such recruits while in transit back to The Rock(or to link up with the 10th Company fleet). The recruits are turned over to the 10th Company Master, and then the Grand Master of Recruits then leaves to travel the recruiting circuit once more. Seldom would the Grand Master of Recruits actually lead Scouts in battle though, let alone have the time to oversee both full Scout training, recruiting, and battlefield command duties. Maybe they do though, and the whole process is instead that the 10th Company fleet travels around gathering up recruits, trains them on their ships, and then travels among the other Company fleets dropping off Scout squads as support units. Sounds plausible enough to me. Of any of these titles, this one seems mostly likely to be held by a standing Company Master. *Grand Master of the Watch- assumes responsibility of making sure that all DA holdings are well guarded. This seems more likely to be a separate posting, as the DA are known for having outposts scattered all over the place so as to keep a watch on their recruiting planets and other areas of interest. Then there are also all of the hidden outposts responsible for tracking information related to the Fallen. For Dark Angels at least, being the Grand Master of the Watch has a whole other connotation to it so for as what is being watched. This position could very much be the Dark Angels equivalent of a spymaster, which is a cool idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2648133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jainar Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Fair enough, I appreciate the efforts of fellow brothers in untangling the puzzle! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2648145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 *Grand Master of Recruits- could be an additional title for the 10th Company Master, though this does not seem as likely with the Dark Angels as it would with other Chapters that recruit from a single home world. For example, the Grand Master of Recruits might be solely responsible for visiting the many worlds that the Dark Angels recruit from, and then for beginning the training of such recruits while in transit back to The Rock(or to link up with the 10th Company fleet). The recruits are turned over to the 10th Company Master, and then the Grand Master of Recruits then leaves to travel the recruiting circuit once more. Seldom would the Grand Master of Recruits actually lead Scouts in battle though, let alone have the time to oversee both full Scout training, recruiting, and battlefield command duties. Maybe they do though, and the whole process is instead that the 10th Company fleet travels around gathering up recruits, trains them on their ships, and then travels among the other Company fleets dropping off Scout squads as support units. Sounds plausible enough to me. Of any of these titles, this one seems mostly likely to be held by a standing Company Master. i would think that this would be the only one that could work as a title within a chapter so is completely plausable *Grand Master of the Watch- assumes responsibility of making sure that all DA holdings are well guarded. This seems more likely to be a separate posting, as the DA are known for having outposts scattered all over the place so as to keep a watch on their recruiting planets and other areas of interest. Then there are also all of the hidden outposts responsible for tacking information related to the Fallen. For Dark Angels at least, being the Grand Master of the Watch has a whole other connotation to it so for as what is being watched. This position could very much be the Dark Angels equivalent of a spymaster, which is a cool idea. this sounds really interesting actually. i could see this working really well having served in the british army i doubt that grand master of the arsenal would work. i lie to think of him as a quartermaster sergeant. they are never found on the front line and hang back re-organising and distributing weaponry and supplies where needed so i think this one would be out grandmaster of the fleet i would completely agree with. although navy, army and air force work closely together they could never truely work on that kind of a scale Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2648155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother iKon Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I was thinking about inner circle and robes and why a secret group would have such an overt sign of there membership and it struck me that it may be nesicary. The practical advantage is that brothers can be trained to report anything hinky (read clues to the location of a fallen) directly to a member of the inner circle, otherwise this seemingly pointless information could be overlooked by a superior that is not privy to the hunt for the fallen. although i do come from a time when squad sgt's had to be upgraded to Veterans (which gave them terminator honours making them members of the deathwing and thus privy to the hunt for the fallen) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2651106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I was thinking about inner circle and robes and why a secret group would have such an overt sign of there membership and it struck me that it may be nesicary. I like that this kind of hierarchy/almost feudal tradition remains in the Chapter. They are a a breed apart, and whats more, regular battle brothers know it. I also like all the snippet sentences that have come through the years about how at different stages in a marines life, from scout, to full fledged veteran, certain myths/stories/legends are told by the circle members. It allows them to, even after centuries, regulate who is worthy enough to make the connections and follow the path of the Lion, you either understand it, or you never will, much like the Order's take on entry to the knighthood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2651472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Deathwing Members*All members of the 2nd Company other than Belial Just a point, the Deathwing is the 1st Company, not the 2nd company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2651795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, yeah. Missed the editing on that cut-n-paste. You think I typed out every single "Xth Company" bit in there? Lots of copy-pasting there. Of course I neglect to notice that one. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2652621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Neo Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 as promised here is an image to better show what i was describing http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9930/circleswithincircles.png Uploaded with ImageShack.us the way i see it the inner most circle would contain: supreme grandmaster of the dark angels azrael (holds secrets that none of the other unforgiven knows of) grandmaster of the librarium ezekiel grandmaster of the reclusiarch sapphon master of the forge the outher circles would have circles within containing: inner circle: master of the 1st company (grandmaster of relevant chapter) master of the librarium master of the reclusiarch master of the apothecarium second circle: master of each 2-10 company librarian of each 2-10 company chaplain of each 2-10 company apothecary of each 2-10 company company circles: master librarian chaplain apothecary company outer circle: command squad veteran sergeants Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2671173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Just reading through this and came across a couple of things that made me first double take and then shale my head... Firstly, all Dark Angels Librarians are inducted into the Inner Circle, one of their primary duties is to help in the interrogation of captured prisoners/Fallen. If they weren't inducted into some of the deeper mysteries they might just come across something in the line of said duties that made them go " :D What the...?". This really should be common knowledge to any Dark Angels/Unforgiven player. :) Secondly, @Brother Landrain - Company Veterans have And They Shall No Know Fear, they are not Fearless, so I'm not quite sure what point either of you was trying to make. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2672148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Do they all assist in the interrogations? Chaplains have a non-Deathwing rank either, I thought, and are first made normal chaplains, and later interrogator-chaplains. Likewise, couldn't there be librarians who are inducted into the deathwing and some who aren't, where obviously only those who are inducted would assist in the interrogations? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2672154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Do they all assist in the interrogations? Chaplains have a non-Deathwing rank either, I thought, and are first made normal chaplains, and later interrogator-chaplains. Likewise, couldn't there be librarians who are inducted into the deathwing and some who aren't, where obviously only those who are inducted would assist in the interrogations? Good questions. However, Chaplains are not Librarians, they're a different breed altogether. Also, even those that wouldn't necessarily be assisting in interrogations would be exposed to their brother Librarians who were. All of which is moot, as its stated categorically in Angels of Death that all Librarians are inducted into the Deathwing, and the fact that the 4E Codex still includes references to them guarding the Dungeons/Cells within the Rock, and a Librarian always being present at the interrogation of one of the Fallen, and their being Fearless (the common trait of all Inner Circle/Deathwing units) would suggest this is still the case even though it isn't explicitly stated. Which to me looks like yet another example of GW omitting major/important parts of the background they shouldn't have from the 4E Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/220668-masters-and-grand-masters-and-azrael-oh-my/page/2/#findComment-2672171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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