Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Me and my group of friends play that you need to be able to see the Torso of a model to shoot at it. It stops models being punished for having ''LOOK AT ME I AM DANGEROUS AND HEROIC'' poses. Have to agree with this. It says right in the book that models shouldn't get penalised for being impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hmm...that would also take bio-weapons out of the picture. So a carnifex with four talons could be completely hidden, even if the four massive talons are 100% visible. Or a Keeper of Secrets' claws sticking out but the body hidden. Doesn't sit right with me... And wiping out an entire squad because one person's thumb is visible does? Common sense should really prevail in situations like this. And if anyone gets picky then, as already pointed out, strictly speaking feet and hands are not part of the leg/arm and therefore do not form part of the 'body' as defined in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Me and my group of friends play that you need to be able to see the Torso of a model to shoot at it. It stops models being punished for having ''LOOK AT ME I AM DANGEROUS AND HEROIC'' poses. Have to agree with this. It says right in the book that models shouldn't get penalised for being impressive. Except even then they get penalized! I've heard about a guy who has a guard army where most of the models are crouched or sprawled on the ground.... This was done before true LOS so wasn't modelling for an advantage... but his models make it much easier to hide the torso. Also it is all good with standard humanoid bodies but you wait till you play against a guy who has made an army of warrior henchmen out of servo skulls and then rules that (if that was actually the rule) that they have no torso and so you can't target them :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 If you can see a thumb, you can shoot them. You'll be shooting them through a wall or something (whatever is obscuring them) but your models know where they are; they'll get a cover save of course. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 This is what I don't get. You need to check each firing model to see that they have LOS (I bet they couldn't all see the bloody thumb!) but you don't check it to each target. One model in LOS and the entire unit can be wiped out. What's so hard about saying that yes they can shoot that unit but 9 out of 10 of the targets are out of LOS and can't be damaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 arm - noun - 1: a human upper limb; especially: the part between the shoulder and the wrist hand - noun - 1a (1): the terminal part of the vertebrate forelimb when modified (as in humans) as a grasping organ finger - noun - 1: any of the five terminating members of the hand thumb - noun - 1: the short thick digit of the human hand that is analogous in position to the big toe and differs from the other fingers in having only two phalanges, allowing greater freedom of movement, and being opposable to each of them Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to anypart of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head, torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body), In these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive standards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc. RAW - A thumb or finger is a part of the hand. The hand is attached to but is not part of the arm - RAW + english language definitions. RAI - I don't believe that just because a model is posed such that his "thumbs up" victory pose makes his thumb visible that he should be penalized for the dramatic pose. In actuality the unit would be moving around, ducking behind cover and not posing triumphantly whilest being shot at. If you can see one or more of the listed "body" parts, then by all means take the shot with appropriate cover saves. But claiming that your unit knows where an enemy is by a glimpse of a thumb is, in my opinion, reaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Erm... many posts about the same thing, different wording xD Can I shoot you thumb marine RAW? Yes Edit: you can read why all the work dswanick put in this post ^ xDD Is it cheap, frownable (word?) and would I pack my minis if someone did that a friendly game? You bet. IMO, not much more to say about the thumb marine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 The main issue, is we model our models how we like, and then we have true line of sight. Now obviously if they were "real" they would duck and hide behind terrain, but they aren't, they are stuck in one pose. Many a time I move a squad into what I think is cover, only to find out that an enemy has clear line of sight, or can see the majority of the squad fine, though I've been using TEQ (terminators) so I don't really need cover that often. Personally, I wouldn't shoot at an enemy squad if I could only see a thumb/fingers from one model in the squad, but I do think it is within the rules to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Many a time I move a squad into what I think is cover, only to find out that an enemy has clear line of sight, or can see the majority of the squad fine, though I've been using TEQ (terminators) so I don't really need cover that often. That's why when a cover is important to me or the opponent not having LOS, I'll move 1 model from the squad, place it and ask "LOS? Cover?"... it might seem to slow down things up, but it saves sooooooooooooooooo much time later... plus the nasty feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thematically it does make a lot of sense; a seasoned team of soldiers upon seeing a hand or top of a head behind a window will make educated guesses as to where the rest of that enemy group is and fire at them through the wall (if they have weapons that can penetrate it: many modern automatic rifles can easily punch through drywall and still maim or kill those hiding behind it). It's more or less blind fire, which is why they get a cover save. <3 If you stress about whether a spot will award your guys a cover save, take a note from Silent Requiem: set a dice or two out where your guys will be and ask your opponent if they agree your models would get a cover save were they there. While you might think this practice would take too much time, consider how much time is saved by never arguing as to whether or not a cover save is had. :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Aye that's what I do, when I remember to ask, I say, do I get cover from those x/z/whatever's? however, if I forget to ask and then don't receive a cover save, I only have myself to blame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Aye that's what I do, when I remember to ask, I say, do I get cover from those x/z/whatever's? however, if I forget to ask and then don't receive a cover save, I only have myself to blame... Don't take it too hard. We all forget simple things from time to time when playing. It's okay! It's a game. <3 Your models will live to fight another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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