Wound allocation

[wulfric_1066]

Okay; I have ten sternguard; four bolters, four combi-meltas, two combi-plasma.

 

I take some firing that means I have to take six saves. I have three pools to allocate the saves to; I understand that. I can allocate up to four saves to the bolters, four to the combi-melta and two to the combi-plasma (to a total of six), and if I have any fails, I can remove any figure from that pool. No problem.

 

It's now later in the game. I still have the same ten sternguard, but two of the combi-meltas have been fired.

 

Do I have three pools (4 bolter, 4 combi-melta, 2 combi-plasma) or four (4 bolta, 2 unused combi-melta, 2 used combi-melta, 2 combi-plasma). Or a different three pools (6 bolter (2 of which are used combi-meltas), 2 unused combi-melta, 2 unused combi-plasma)?

 

And if it is the initial (4/4/2) can I choose to take the used combi-melta in preference to the unused combi-meltas?

[LPetersson]

I would roll it as 3 pools since the combis you fired are now effectively bolters, but if someone wanted to roll 4 pools, I wouldn't care.

 

I naturally wouldn't (And wouldn't let someone else) roll the used and unused combis in one pool...

[DarkGuard]

I would agree with LPetersson about this. The phrase used in the rulebook IIRC is something like "models which are different in gaming terms". Now, a combi-melta that hasn't fired yet is different in gaming terms to a boltgun, as it can fire as a meltagun. A combi-melta that has fired is no different in gaming terms to a boltgun, as they both do exactly the same thing. However, it is different to a combi-melta that hasn't fire, for obvious reasons.

 

I do often still roll combi-meltas together, as I go by what I see, so as I have some spare Vets with boltguns, I am considering switching out combi-melta models that have fired to boltgun models, much easier to see who has fired and who hasn't, and keeps wound allocation fair.

[nurglez]

I remember a multi page thread about this and dont remember it being sorted out, as the 2 sides were rather set in their ways.

 

I run combi weps on my logan wing termies, but I generally have 2-3 per squad, and are almost always the same (got 2 combi melta 1 combi flamer in 1 squad). I dont have enough combi weps to fire only a few, its generally all or nothing.

[DarkGuard]

I think I might recall that thread. In the end, people just have to do what they think is best for them, and what they think is right, but to keep an open mind. It's a grey area rule, so discuss it with your opponent before the game, and wait for the FAQ.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I tend to seperate used/unused for alocation purposes, as the only multiwound models that can take combi weapons are IC, and thus their own target anyway, the cases were it will cause allocation sheninagans are few and far between.

[trefenwyd]

@ Frosty - that's just because you're not a SW player! Huge implications for my 10-man combi-melta drop team...

[shatter]

I got the feeling from the longish thread before that the folks thinking they're not the same, used and boltguns, were in the minority despite wanting to repeat their opinion endlessly in the face of those quoting rules against this opinion.

 

In short, used combi = boltgun unless you don't like it in which case you can ignore the rules relevant and simply support your opinion with rubbish until you browbeat acceptance from your opponent.

 

I applauded Legatus's effort in the previous thread.

[wulfric_1066]

Sorry to rake this one up; I must have missed the previous thread.

 

Thanks for the responses. I will go with 'used combi = bolter'; it seems closest to the spirit of the game.

[wulfric_1066]

Sorry to rake this one up; I must have missed the previous thread.

 

Thanks for the responses. I will go with 'used combi = bolter'; it seems closest to the spirit of the game.

[wulfric_1066]

Sorry to rake this one up; I must have missed the previous thread.

 

Thanks for the responses. I will go with 'used combi = bolter'; it seems closest to the spirit of the game.

[wulfric_1066]

Sorry to rake this one up; I must have missed the previous thread.

 

Thanks for the responses. I will go with 'used combi = bolter'; it seems closest to the spirit of the game.

[Wildfire]

A combi-melta is still a combi-melta after it's fired. The type of equipment doesn't change, just because you've shot already. Thus, in your example, you will always have 4 bolter, 4 combi-melta, and 2 combi-plasma models, no matter how many fire their combi-weapons.

[stinkenheim]

Agree^^

 

However I can see the other side but whether the weapon can be fired or not it is still a combi-melta and nothing within the rules says it suddenly changes type.

 

Iirc the rules about dealing with casualties says to look at wargear and weapons. They do mention ones that are identical in game terns but they then clarify what those terns are by giving you the breakdown of what to look for.

If anything you would have more luck arguing that you had an extra group of combi-meltas that had been fired rather than claiming they were in fact suddenly bolter armed marines.

[DarkGuard]

The point being that in gaming terms a used combi-melta is a boltgun, same as the chaps who took boltguns. I think you'd have trouble trying to argue that you now have a separate group of used combi-meltas, as that would give you a distinct advantage. You could clump AP1/2 weapons on this group, and as a result you could lose less people due to the fact that wounds don't carry over. Of course, you're opponent would prefer all combi-meltas being in the same group, but then that gives them a distinct advantage as they could take out the rest of your combis due to this. So the logical way, and the way that seems fairest, is to treat used combi-weapons as boltguns, and are therefore in the same group. That is at least how I see it.

[JamesI]

Personally, I don't care how this is ruled. I rarely use combi-weapons and most squads that do have them only have them on the sergeant.

 

Its most important for units like Sternguard/Chaos terminators.

 

I think there are two options.

1) A combi-weapon is a combi-weapon whether its fired or not. All combi-meltas (fired and not fired) are in the same group.

2) A fired combi-weapon is functionally a bolter and should be grouped with the plain bolters.

 

I can't see an argument for a fired combi-weapon forms its own grouping for would allocation.

 

I will go see if I can find the thread shatter referenced, as I'm curious as to the posts there.

[Grey Mage]

THe fired/unfired combiweapons being different comes from 2 basic things:

 

1) Combiweapons are listed as being TWO weapons, not one, in their rules.

2) One-shot weapons dissapear after they are fired- at the time of the debate this was informed conjecture, it has been confirmed by the BRB FAQ.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I can't see an argument for a fired combi-weapon forms its own grouping for would allocation.

 

 

if victory points were in play it might make sense in that a fired combi is still 5 pts more but still different rules wise.

[waaanial00]

I can't see an argument for a fired combi-weapon forms its own grouping for would allocation.

 

 

if victory points were in play it might make sense in that a fired combi is still 5 pts more but still different rules wise.

 

Only if you are playing victory points as exactly what you have killed. Generally speaking victory points are half for half the squad or full for whole squad. It shouldnt make any difference if you have killed a guy with a fired combi or not.

[Wildfire]

I don't have my BRB anywhere accessible at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it's weapons and wargear that matter. Saying a combi-bolter turns into a boltgun is just silly. It may not be able to be used again, but it's still a combi-weapon. The actual rules for them don't matter, it's the equipment as listed on the model that does.

[Grey Mage]

Except that combi-weapons are two weapons, not one.

[TheMouth]

i look at the combi-bolter like the hunterkiller in vehicles. Once fired it no longer counts as wargear. I think that would apply to the combi, you fired the melta aspect of it, and is no longer a melta. It is now the bolter part of the combi.

[Wildfire]

Except that combi-weapons are two weapons, not one.

 

No, they're not. They're combi-weapons. They have two different functions which use the rules of two different weapons, but when you're purchasing them you trade your bolter (or whatever) for a combi-weapon. Not a bolter and combi-attachment, just a combi-weapon.

[dswanick]

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y322/jd12370/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Grey Mage]

Except that combi-weapons are two weapons, not one.

 

No, they're not. They're combi-weapons. They have two different functions which use the rules of two different weapons, but when you're purchasing them you trade your bolter (or whatever) for a combi-weapon. Not a bolter and combi-attachment, just a combi-weapon.

Yes, they are. "This extra weapon carries only a limited charge," and "can choose to fire either the bolter or the secondary weapon" and "the secondary weapon can only be fired once per battle" and "you cannot fire both weapons in the same turn."

 

4 times in the rules it states that it is two weapons. Whether you purchase them as a package deal or not, its still two weapons.

 

Further examples: purchasing a pair of lightning claws, as some codexs can. Or purchasing heavy bolter sponsons. Or How about a TLPG+LC turret, etc etc.

 

Or my favorite example- the servo-harness.

 

1 listing, 2 weapons.