Chaplains - Worth it?

[LardO'Blood]

Quite simply, do you take vanilla chaplains? Are they worth taking over other HQ choices like a librarian or captain?

For 100 points you get a chaplain with a power weapon and a 4++. He gives his squad fearless and rerolls to hit on the charge.

For 100 points you can get a librarian with a force weapon and two psychic powers that can accomplish a variety of tasks.

For 115 points you can get a captain with a power weapon, a 4++ and good close combat abilities.

 

So, a chaplain works best accompanying close combat units, right?

TH/SS terminators don't need a chaplain, they will wreck it either way.

Vanguard are usually even more pricey and unviable if you add a chaplain.

Command squads require you to take a captain also, so the chaplain is filling your only other HQ slot.

Honor guard require you to take a chapter master, so the chaplain is filling your only other HQ slot and adding to the price of an already expensive unit.

Assault squads benefit the most, but can turn into a bit of a pricey deathstar if you are running a jump pack chaplain, 10 assault marines, two flamers and a powerfist. Not only is it pricey, but doesn't perform many roles other than killing light/medium infantry.

Scout squads lose infiltrate and move through cover, it might just not be worth it.

Regular terminators are more for a shooty role and Cassius can do the same job as a regular chaplain or a TDA chaplain better.

Tactical squads don't have many attacks and are often better at a close range rapid fire.

Sternguard squads have a nice amount of attacks, but they will almost always be better off rapid firing their special ammo.

[MagicMan]

I like them because they have skull faces.

[Arkios]

I like them because they have skull faces.

[Jackelope King]

Nah, Chaplains are almost never worth it. They boost only one squad, and Codex: Space Marines has very few squads that have a neat Threat Profile of 1 across the board in melee who would benefit from getting to reroll attacks. We either have units that are already dead-killy (Assault Terminators with TH/SS don't need any help killing everything they come across) or are very limited (Assault Marines do good against light infantry, but can't handle heavy infantry) or cost waaaaay too much.

 

Codex: Space Marines have Librarians as our go-to HQs (with Captains on Bikes and Masters of the Forge and Special Characters for specific armies), and you only need one of each of those to augment your entire force, whereas you need to roll two Chaplains to get adequate coverage (one super-unit is easily blocked).

[DarkGuard]

Chaplains can be worth it as a cheap combat HQ. Although a Captain can take a power weapon for 15pts, I'd still prefer the Chaplain, as he would add a lot more to the squad for the same amount of points as Cassius or with digi weapons. Chaplains are especially handy in Assault squads, as with a jump pack and digi weapons they are 125pts, and mean everyone gets to re-roll their failed to hit rolls. Much cheaper than a Captain who would probably cost about 195pts.

 

That's the point I'm trying to make and failing I feel, if Captain's are going to be good in CC, they nearly always need to take a relic blade and storm shield. So they're 145pts at least. Add on digi weapons, arty and possibly a jump pack, and you've got a lot of points in that one character. Chaplains would be the kings of low point games therefore, and are incredibly useful for making Assault squads better for a moderate points increase. Unfortunately for them, in larger point games Captains are more desirable in CC, and in all games Libbys are just desirable, so they don't get much of a look in.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Have to agree with Darkguard, except that if I do use them at all, I use them to beef up my tacticals/Terminator's, as an assualt detterent and a booster since both of these units are going to be in medium to close range anyway.

Captains, as said above, are better in CC but they are pricey if you really pimp him out. Librarians are also great all-rounders and can be good help to any squad.

my 2 cents

[Zynk Kaladin]

Really I've only seen them as useful in a full squad of assault marines or CC scouts. However, a libby or captain is almost always a better choice albeit lacking in skull faces.

 

EDIT: If I remember tomorrow I'll write a better explanation as to why.

[Meatman]

I take one for my 10 man assault squad with thunderhammer.

 

I normally play low points games, 1,500 or less, but mainly 1,000 points. A cheap HQ in the form of a chaplain with jump pack lets you take more other stuff and he provides a major boost to your counter assault unit.

 

My local meta is not mech heavy, so assault marines really kick ass against most squads. Over the dozens of games I've played with my assault squad and chaplain they have always played their part magnificently. Re-rolling "to hit" rolls on the thunderhammer is my favourite part.

[Aron]

I personaly think chaplains aren't really any good for codex marines.

Black templar chaplains are allright and BA chaplains are quite good(eg. Lemartes).

I think that chaplains in general are not worth their points.

[MagicMan]

I personaly think chaplains aren't really any good for codex marines.

Black templar chaplains are allright and BA chaplains are quite good(eg. Lemartes).

I think that chaplains in general are not worth their points.

 

 

 

....but the skulls. The skulls for faces.

[Mysticaria]

There is also a pretty good Chaplain option at 125 points. [EDIT... just saw you want to discuss only vanilla chaplains... sorry]

 

And... the terminator chaplain is one of the sickest models around. Not so powerful in the "Tactics" section, but totally worth it in the "my army is cooler than yours" department.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

Unfortunately no one takes the Terminator Chaplain because Cassius is better value for the same points. It seems the general consensus is take Cassius, unless you need a jump pack, which is a shame. For me, a Chaplain with a jump pack, digi weapons and sometimes meltabombs has worked well in an Assault squad. Unfortunately I rarely have a place for it in my games, at it costs more than 350pts to field, and there's better things I can use the points on. I suppose it's one of those things GW got wrong. IMO all they would have needed to do is up his attacks and initiative by one, and he would have been a more viable option.

[chaplain belisarius]

Personally i love chaplains-i like the models and the fluff for them but in the current C:SM they have diluted them too much in my opinion. If i only have 100pts to spend on a HQ now, i get a librarian as they are far more useful...

 

sad really...chaplains are one of my favourite things about marines...:sweat:

[Jackelope King]

I suppose it's one of those things GW got wrong. IMO all they would have needed to do is up his attacks and initiative by one, and he would have been a more viable option.

I'm not convinced, honestly. It'd be nice, sure, but Codex: Space Marines has scant few lone butt-kickers. We don't do it well, shy of monsters like Lysander. We also have precious little distinction between the "Kill Everything" Melee units of TH/SS Terminators and "Kill Light Infantry and Little Else" with our Assault Marines. Rather than expanding a unit's Threat Profile, they accentuate it, and that means they let Assault Marines kill Light Infantry even better, while still being largely ineffectual against Heavy Infantry on up. They'd love to run around with a unit like Vanguard Vets, but those are still super-expensive and don't even get discounted Power Weapons. They'd love to hang out with a Command Squad, but they don't unlock the unit, meaning you're paying for a Captain too. They're all dressed up with no place to go.

 

If Chaplains granted a 6" bubble of Favored Enemy, then I honestly think they'd be a much more competitive choice. Being able to boost a few nearby units would be phenomenal, even at an increased price and with their limited personal close-combat ability. As it is, Codex: Space Marines will never make lone butt-kickers like the Tyranids, Space Wolves or Dark Eldar can. Pound-for-pound, a Hive Tyrant, reasonably tooled-up Thunderwolf Hero, or reasonably tooled-up Archon will all make more of an impact that any lone model we can field in assault.

 

As it is, Librarians support your whole force, and choices like Bike Captains, Vulkan, and Masters of the Forge all unlock novel approaches to the Codex at an army-wide level. A Chaplain accentuates a single unit's Threat Profile in melee. Codex: Space Marines have actual leaders who actually support your army and shape its strategy in their HQ slots. Leave the choppy to the Space Puppies and the Bugs and the Evil Elves.

[chaplain belisarius]

still...i wish they kept chaplains how they used to be...they were able to spearhead an assault back then. I just feel they swung the nerf bat a bit too hard there...:(

[spartan249]

Chaplains are not worth it anymore, not in 5th edition.

1. Gimped profile. They're nearly useless in close combat by themselves now.
   
2. Other HQs were improved significantly compared to the Chaplain. Even though Librarians got the shaft too in terms of statistics, they got some very nice psychic powers to compensate.
   
3. As others have mentioned, they do not suit the army very well. C:SM operates very well when playing the mobile firepower game. Chaplains lend nothing to this strategy.
   

 

I think the only way to make them work in C:SM is as a very cheap counter-assault buff. Have a list that's focused on shooting, and back it up with a small counter-assault unit led by a chaplain. I still think a Librarian would do much better in the same slot (Null Zone gives invul save tottin units something to think about when they go into the killzone, while Vortex of Doom gives you an extra small blast to throw at a unit close by in an emergency). Even in this config, the chaplain lends nothing to the army's shooting; he simply provides the get-out-of-jail-free card that works half the time (unless he's with assault terminators, which takes even more firepower away from your lineup).

[Leonaides]

TBH, in 4th ed no-one took captains because Chaplains were just too good in comparison. now everyones got chaplains which simply arent as good any more. Now the HQ units arent simply auto-choices. A chaplain can be useful since he's cheap, makes a reasonable unit better, reliably, and doesnt need too much extra kit to do his job.

 

In a 1k army, 100pts on a chaplain as your HQ leaves you plenty of points left for the rest of your army, and he will make your counter-assault/assault unit better. Whats not to love?

[Machine God]

Iron Hands!

 

To mis-quote:

 

"Chaplains, Chaplains, we don't need no stinking Chaplains!"

[LardO'Blood]

Something I forgot to mention, what do you chaps think about chaplains with LC terminators? Are they worth it then? They can deal with all types of infantry and some MCs.

[Mysticaria]

Something I forgot to mention, what do you chaps think about chaplains with LC terminators? Are they worth it then? They can deal with all types of infantry and some MCs.

It's super fun! It is effective, but honestly people will tell you there are more competative options. Still, if you like rolling tons of dice over and over again that combo is hard to beat. It's also a good place for that TDA chaplain that looks so cool. Not sure it is top tier strategy for Ard Boys, but it's been more than strong enough for me through a number of FLGS tournament scenes.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

I dunno Myst, that combo is still viable in Black Templars. Or might not be anymore since they got 3++ storm shields and new Preferred Enemy. In the old Codex it was the stuff of nightmares, a Chaplain in Termy armour with two lightning claws, with 7 Terminators with twin lightning claws, jumping out of an LRC into combat. Plus Furious Charge. So many high-strength re-roll at high init, was horrible. And it's cheaper for them now, as they have Preferred Enemy thanks to the Emperor's Champion, so you can just have 8 lightning claw Termiantors now as well.

 

One would suppose Blood Angels can do this as well, with their Reclusiarchs and Sanguinary Priests. In Space Marines though, it's less effective due to not having Furious Charge. You could always add Khan, but then we're going into a lot of points, and many people would say you might as well have gone for TH/SS Terminators. Still, if you need an Ork horde thinning then I suppose a Chaplain (poss Cassius) with Khan and 7 lightning claw Terminators in an LRC is your unit...

[their kin]

I don't get why everyone is so dead set against chaplains w/ hammernators. You go from an average of 50% hits (at best 66%) to, staggeringly, 81.3% hits (almost 90% for hitting on 3+) according to the math. And with strength 8 you are almost always a 2+ to hit. Outside of the hammernator list I'm building, in which I'm not really expecting to get the charge, why would I ever use hammernators without a chaplain. If you take a killy unit, why leave it at a half measure? You're basically hamstringing yourself.

 

And before anyone decries my math, think about it:

-You, hit on average, with 4+, meany 50% chance to hit.

-On the charge with the chaplain, you then receive a reroll on those misses, which is no longer an even 50/50 because in the first iteration you've already rolled 1 of the 3 possible outcomes which cause failure and therefore with each of those misses, the probibility of rolling the same number for that hit again is 1:36. So now you have a 113 in 180 chance of hitting with each of those dice, which is just under 3/5.

-Now add those two together(adjusting the second percentage based on the percentage it was originally taken from (50%) and you have your adjusted chance to hit: >81.3% per hit.

 

That's the chance of each die in isolation, so it would change with each hit or miss accordingly, but that translates to a big difference in wounds: 7-9 w/o chaplain, 11-13 w/ chaplain (based on 7 terminators charging, not factoring in the chaplain himself or casualties taken before they can attack)

 

That translates to a statistical minimum of 2 more wounds, and as much as 6 more (almost double) before factoring in the chaplains himself. That's the difference between hurting a unit and obliterating it.

[spartan249]

There's still something wrong with your method here. In this case, it's pretty simple for 4+ (50% of your attacks miss, of which 50% will hit thanks to the reroll) which nets you a 75% chance to hit with each roll, and 3+, which nets a 87.78% chance to hit. I don't know where you're getting the extra numbers, but you're going to have to show your work more throughly to prove your hypothesis.

 

That being said, chaplains do increase the capability of anything in assault, but the sacrifice is apparent when trying to augment your defense through psychic powers or offense through chapter tactics, as you'll have one less HQ slot to fit that stuff in. It's a trade-off now, whereas before, Chaplains were king, since chapter tactics were nonexistant.

[meatball]

If you are planning to take a Chaplain alongside 5 TH/SS terminators then you are better off leaving the Chappy home and for he same points buy three additional terminators which give you, considering also the Chaplain, 33% more attacks, one extra wounds and a better invul save. Hitting on 4's, without the charge, 5 TH/SS termies with Chapie hit 7.5 times + 1.5 Chaplain attacks, while eight TH/SS termies hit 8 times.

 

The only time I would really consider taking a Chaplain is when I would need his fearless trait (vs. IG psyker battle squad for example)

[their kin]

Spartan, you were right, my math was off. It's closer to 78.6, and a squad of 7 w/ chaplain on the charge would net 16.5 hits. If you agree with me there, sorry for the bad math on my part, and please skip the next paragraph.

 

The math isn't straight "i have a 50/50 chance of hitting, then get to roll the misses which also have a 50/50." Because all the dice you pick up (or even new dice that you roll in their stead, although statistically that's a bad move) have now rolled one of the three permutations that result in failure (a 1, 2, or 3) and the chance of those same five dice rolling another failure is considerably lower.

 

The math goes as follows:

1/2 chance of rolling a 4+

after failure, rerolling now has a probability of 2/5 of rolling a different failure, in addition to the 1/36 chance of rolling the exact same number. So, that is a 77/180 chance of failure, leaving 113/180 chance of success, which represents 113 out of 360 of the total possible outcomes.

this means that (combined) you have a 293/360 chance of succeeding with each individual die, which translates to an 78.6% chance of success with each die, which becomes more and more apparent the larger you sample is.

 

Your argument against their utility when compared to other characters is by no means wrong, and comes down to preference, I'm simply trying to show everyone that that reroll is better than many may think.

 

Meatball, those 3 hammernators that you buy instead of a chaplain are not a direct comparison. A 7 man hammernator squad, w/ chaplain, versus a 10 man squad on the charge, will hit 1.5 times more not counting the chaplain's attacks, which would make it a total increase between 3-4. Doesn't seem like a lot, but still added benefit, and then it becomes a question of "how do I value my 15 points?" That does not necessarily account for a godwynn carrying 5 and a chaplain versus a crusader with 8, which would actually favor the 8 man squad at that point. Additionally, that Chaplain, even at a loss of points, is a force multiplier when you consider the prescriptive size of land raiders and the number of models they may carry. For a loss of 1 terminator you get between 2.79-4.51 additional hits on the charge.

 

So, my argument goes, based on points cost and the method you hope to use it in, there is a definite place for chaplains in my army, that is backed up by the math and the dice.