Blood Angels and Fangs

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Hah wow... I've been saying this for years and getting torn to pieces for it... would I only had that quote. I remember the internet-gaming community, which was small(er) at the time, always blamed the "horrible 3rd edition codex fluff" for turning the BA's into blood-thirsty vampires, but they have always been just that.

[Plague Angel]

I like the vampire thing, because — while I realize 40k has become its own unique setting — I appreciate the fantasy elements.

 

This is a game about knights, orks, vikings, demons, and elves. In space. Vampires are just another fantasy race.

[Enzephalon]

This guy maximized the vampiric theme, and I must admit it is awesome!

Although I wouldn't do it myself.

 

Flesh Eaters

[BrotherMoses]

The Black Rage refers to the hallucinations suffered by members of the Death Company.

 

The Red Thirst refers to this "blood lust" that we're discussing.

 

Brothers showing signs of the Black Rage are pulled from their company by the chaplains and placed into the Death Company.

 

Those showing the symptoms of the Red Thirst are free to discuss it with their Sanguinary Priest for treatment.

[Demoulius]

tbh blood angels arent vampires (they dont disintirgate when hit by sunlight or "have to be invited in" for example ;))

 

what we ARE however is vampiric. we drink blood, no use in trying to deny that because its a huge trait of our chapter. our "apothecaries" use blood transfusion INTENSIVLY because blood angel's gain strength from said blood.

 

the legacy of Sanguinius isent just bound to geneseed. its bound by the very lifeblood of the chapter as well. only the complete and utter devastation of every blood angel would see the chapter erased from the stars. and until that time the blood angels will be a thorn in the side of the emperor's foes.

 

-edit-

made a dumb typo ;)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think in the case of BA, they're yin yang like their towers, priests and chaplains.

not really. the blood angels lust for blood but not necessarily battle, the blood lust is often taken care of during battle.

 

Now I think you're confusing Red Thirst for the phrase blood lust as I used it. I think Red Thirst is a process caused by the 'warp trance' (the great hallucination of Sanguinius) and ritual blood drinking (ensanguination at creation) causing feedback with while acting upon ye olde blood lust/battle lust present in man generally. When a whole squad drinks or tastes at raining blood, it could be considered mere mass hysteria magnifying the frequency of the confluence of combined reasons for this mental 'snap'. That this happens to all of them eventually, and they're in a permanent state of obsession... one can't help but wonder how emo they really must be. Emo guys looking to destroy everything that's wrong and save the little guy because simply living is too much to bear.

 

Sometimes, everyone drinks the wine.

 

Certainly much more than just vampires. Bestial and angelic, assuredly. Emotional and tragic, absolutely. Holy and wise, unimaginably. Glorious and heroic, always.

 

Gothic and kinda-vampirey-in-a-way?

Whatever, it's pretty tertiary as far as I'm concerned. Just one of many factors.

 

Gosh I ramble.

blood lust means the lust for blood. red thirst is how that blood lust is represented.

[Plague Angel]

tbh blood angels arent vampires (they dont disintirgate when hit by sunlight or "have to be invited in" for example ;))

 

Neither did Dracula.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

if having fangs = vampire

 

Nope.

 

But having fangs, drinking blood, having death cults, and sleeping in coffins...

 

 

Hi my name is Plague Angel...I like ruin fun. : DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA : ;)

 

I was poking at ops post about having the long fangs, and no other discussion about the other bits about the BA. But seriously I dont remember hearing any of this vampire fluff getting so hardcore till like ...I want to say 3rd or 4th? I need to go dig out my Angels of Death codex and see if its mentioned in there...its been years since I read it. LOLOL

angels of death codex, mephiston had a rule that required him to take (leadership?) roll after H2H combat to see if he would drink the blood of his fallen victims or not, and woe be to those who interfere. hell the oh so famous pic of mephiston bats and all should seal it beyond a shadow of a doubt that mephiston is the character that embodies the blood sucking habits of the blood angels.

 

edit.

not to mention other than the new inclusion of the sanguinor and the SG the only link to angels we have is that our primarch had feathery white wings, and the word angel in our name (and no accuses the dark angels of having an angelic theme) so i'd say there's much more of a vampire influence present in the BA history than that of angels. (however i'm not denying the angelic theme/influence, just stating facts)

[Pavement Artist]

Having Vampiric qualities does not make you a vampire. Much in the same way space wolves arent quite wolves (as much as they try)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Having Vampiric qualities does not make you a vampire. Much in the same way space wolves arent quite wolves (as much as they try)

nobody is really saying "BLOOD ANGELS ARE SPACE VAMPIRES!" we're saying there is a strong influence from traditional vampire stories. just like they're not 'angels in space' or 'renaissance poets/artists in space' either"

[Plague Angel]

The distinction between "vampire" and "vampiric" is completely arbitrary, as there isn't a single universally accepted definition of "vampire" that applies across all stories. Every setting, every culture, every myth defines "vampire" differently. Saying that the Blood Angels aren't vampires because they don't exhibit quality X doesn't make sense, because quality X is irrelevant. Some vampires don't even drink blood.

 

nobody is really saying "BLOOD ANGELS ARE SPACE VAMPIRES!"

 

I am.

[BrotherMoses]

The distinction between "vampire" and "vampiric" is completely arbitrary, as there isn't a single universally accepted definition of "vampire" that applies across all stories. Every setting, every culture, every myth defines "vampire" differently. Saying that the Blood Angels aren't vampires because they don't exhibit quality X doesn't make sense, because quality X is irrelevant. Some vampires don't even drink blood.

 

nobody is really saying "BLOOD ANGELS ARE SPACE VAMPIRES!"

 

I am.

 

 

Then I agree that Blood Angels are in fact vampires. I must also assert that Ultramarines are also vampires. Not only are they vampires, but they're far better vampires than the Blood Angels will ever be. They're ULTRAVAMPIRES.

[Demoulius]

to just note something what i think people take offense to (if it offense) is that the word vampire is typically assosiated with an evil undead harbringer of doom who needs the blood of the living in order to stay alive.

 

just to note though, in our own ecology we got vampires as well. vampire bats to name the most obvious one here :P and these little beasties arent evil at all (unless your asking the farm owners, whose livestock theyre chewing on ;) )

 

leaches, lice etc all feed on blood. its quite a logical foodsource tbh, so long as your target is well fed :P

 

what makes the trait bad in space marines though is...well theyre supposed to protect people, not suck them dry :lol:

 

i find it a small downside to an awesome chapter :lol: besides we all know the rumors of corpses drained of blood and such are planted by cultists to begin with :P

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The distinction between "vampire" and "vampiric" is completely arbitrary, as there isn't a single universally accepted definition of "vampire" that applies across all stories. Every setting, every culture, every myth defines "vampire" differently. Saying that the Blood Angels aren't vampires because they don't exhibit quality X doesn't make sense, because quality X is irrelevant. Some vampires don't even drink blood.

 

nobody is really saying "BLOOD ANGELS ARE SPACE VAMPIRES!"

 

I am.

 

 

Then I agree that Blood Angels are in fact vampires. I must also assert that Ultramarines are also vampires. Not only are they vampires, but they're far better vampires than the Blood Angels will ever be. They're ULTRAVAMPIRES.

please do explain the vampiric qualities of the smurfs. the eating the enemy to learn about him thingy that all marines can do? is that it?

[Pavement Artist]

I think that may have been a reference to the Wardian trend for Ultramarines and their "Anything you can do, i can do better." depiction as of 5th ed

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Actually all of the astartes do have a vampiric quality... they all have a special implanted gland or organ that allows them to learn about their enemy by tasting their blood. In the very first 40k books, in the 'creation of a space marine' passages they mention how some chapters (Blood Drinkers are specifically named) have enlarged or enhanced versions of this gland/organ and thirst for blood rather than just use it instructively.

[Plague Angel]

to just note something what i think people take offense to (if it offense) is that the word vampire is typically assosiated with an evil undead harbringer of doom who needs the blood of the living in order to stay alive.

 

You mean like this?

 

The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in thus haunted, desolate place.

 

There have been incidents when the Blood Angels have been stationed on distant worlds where members of the local population have gone missing only to turn up later drained of blood. It is possible that this is the work of cultists seeking to discredit the Chapter. It may even be that some of the more superstitious local citizens have taken to offering up sacrifices to their god-like visitors. It may also be possible that these folk have been killed by Blood Angels overcome by the Red Thirst.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Actually all of the astartes do have a vampiric quality... they all have a special implanted gland or organ that allows them to learn about their enemy by tasting their blood. In the very first 40k books, in the 'creation of a space marine' passages they mention how some chapters (Blood Drinkers are specifically named) have enlarged or enhanced versions of this gland/organ and thirst for blood rather than just use it instructively.

but they don't yearn for the blood of others, the blood angels do as represented by the red thirst, not to mention the other previously mentioned vampiric qualities.

 

modern easy to understand example, just because some one drinks alcohol doesn't make them an alcoholic, unless they show other signs/symptoms of the disease

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Actually all of the astartes do have a vampiric quality... they all have a special implanted gland or organ that allows them to learn about their enemy by tasting their blood. In the very first 40k books, in the 'creation of a space marine' passages they mention how some chapters (Blood Drinkers are specifically named) have enlarged or enhanced versions of this gland/organ and thirst for blood rather than just use it instructively.

but they don't yearn for the blood of others, the blood angels do as represented by the red thirst, not to mention the other previously mentioned vampiric qualities.

 

modern easy to understand example, just because some one drinks alcohol doesn't make them an alcoholic, unless they show other signs/symptoms of the disease

 

Well I'd say someone that is constantly thirsting for alcohol, would at least, have an 'alcohol problem'. <_<

 

Here is some 1st edition stuff:

 

"... For example, the omophagea gene-seed of the Blood Drinkers has mutated so that all Blood Drinkers have an unnatural craving for blood."

 

Also from Index Astartes (first volume)

 

"... Another chapter about whom there is widespread rumor regarding their gene-seed are the Blood Angels. They often lapse into a battle-induced frenzy, known as the Black Rage, and can become berserk warriors who thirst for blood and raw flesh."

[LordOfSkyfall]

Yup, the Vampiric theme has always been there and I'm certain it will continue to be this way. Heck, even Codex: Imperialis (1993) which laid down the foundations for the major Chapters we know and love today, outright said the Blood Angels are Vampires (using this very word). It's an epic piece of fluff by the way. :D

 

But anyways, too often it is forgotten that the BAs are also so much more in addition to their Vampiric theme. It really is up to each individual player to decide how much they want to play up this particular theme, as one might just as easily want to focus on the Angelic theme we have going on. We have many different influences and I don't it's fair for our awesomeness to be hammered into a single category.

 

Aye, we are indeed the Berserk Space Vampire Angels!!!

[Mezkh]

I gotta say I never understood the 'Vampire deniers' either. The Vampire is strong within the BAs. :D

[Brother Tyler]

Ah, it appears that some have misunderstood my point.

 

Do the Blood Angels have elements of vampirism in their background and theme? Absolutely. There have been numerous discussions on this topic, notably here ("notably" in this case meaning that I participated in that discussion :D ). My main issue with the vampire thing has been in making that element too overt - what I consider "over-theming". When the 3rd edition Space Hulk game was previewed and everyone got to see the (fantastic) minis, I was among those that complained about the fangs, as can be seen in this thread (I didn't say "fangs", but that was what I meant when I referred to the "Space Vampire route"). In the first discussion I linked above I posted one of my usual long posts, ending with comments about Lorenzo's fangs and how I planned to file them down (here), because I didn't (and still don't) like fangs on Blood Angels. While I can appreciate the vampiric elements to the Chapter's background, I think that giving them fangs is one way to take the theme too far.

 

Does the "suggestion of fangs" make them vampires? Of course not. It merely serves to be a visible element of the vampiric theme - one element among many. Previously I would have (and may have) asserted that the Blood Angels don't have fangs, that fangs are the province of the Space Wolves. The point of my original post was simply to say that I was wrong, that Jes Goodwin indicates that there is the "suggestion of fangs" - possibly just with Cloten, but more likely with either a large segment of or the entirety of the Chapter. If Jes Goodwin says it is so, then as far as I'm concerned, it is so (no matter how much I don't like it).

 

And looking back over one of the posts that I linked, I see that I failed to articulate something effectively. The end result was that what I said implies something is quite incorrect. I'll let you figure out what it was. :D

[Plague Angel]

I believe I understand, Brother Tyler.

 

On the one hand, saying that the Blood Angels aren't vampires is like saying that the Space Wolves aren't vikings, or Black Templar aren't templar knights, or that Orks aren't orcs, or that the Eldar aren't elves, or that Chaos Daemons aren't demons (though I actually have seen people argue for that last one, for some reason).

 

On the other hand, it's an aspect of our Chapter's history that doesn't have to be played up. One could easily emphasize the angel aspect, with an all Sanguinary Guard army, or the Renaissance aspect — perhaps by recreating Italian paintings or murals on vehicle siege shields?

 

Also, even I, who chose the army for the vampire theme, never thought that the Blood Angels had actual fangs. So I can understand some dismay at finding sources that say they do. I was quite surprised when I read Bloodquest.

 

Also also: no one will ever be as overthemed as the Space Wolves. As long as they're around, everything else feels modest. ;)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Actually all of the astartes do have a vampiric quality... they all have a special implanted gland or organ that allows them to learn about their enemy by tasting their blood. In the very first 40k books, in the 'creation of a space marine' passages they mention how some chapters (Blood Drinkers are specifically named) have enlarged or enhanced versions of this gland/organ and thirst for blood rather than just use it instructively.

but they don't yearn for the blood of others, the blood angels do as represented by the red thirst, not to mention the other previously mentioned vampiric qualities.

 

modern easy to understand example, just because some one drinks alcohol doesn't make them an alcoholic, unless they show other signs/symptoms of the disease

 

Well I'd say someone that is constantly thirsting for alcohol, would at least, have an 'alcohol problem'. :P

 

Here is some 1st edition stuff:

 

"... For example, the omophagea gene-seed of the Blood Drinkers has mutated so that all Blood Drinkers have an unnatural craving for blood."

 

Also from Index Astartes (first volume)

 

"... Another chapter about whom there is widespread rumor regarding their gene-seed are the Blood Angels. They often lapse into a battle-induced frenzy, known as the Black Rage, and can become berserk warriors who thirst for blood and raw flesh."

i'm constantly thirsting for mt.dew but i don't have a problem, i just like the way it tastes, there is a difference between want and need. in the case of an alcoholic they feel they NEED alcohol (though we know they don't, but that's how they feel) which is different than having a few beers with the boys because you like to.

 

besides aren't the blood drinkers a BA successor anyway? (edit, just double checked my 'dex and they are which makes the discussion a moot point.)

[Brother Tyler]

I'll be honest, we've been round and round about the vampirism. I've linked to one of the more lengthy discussions. I don't think there's any real added value to tread over that ground again.

 

All I wanted to do was point out how any previous assertions I may have made about the Blood Angels not having fangs were incorrect (insofar as they have the "suggestion of fangs").

 

That's all I was saying. :)