ant1clock Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi I had a quick look on the interweb thingy to see if this question has been asked before. We are all going to be getting our Stormravens soon, I just wanted some guidance on the location of the "hull" on our Raven. An IG player I know and have played against does not consider the wings of the Valk/Vend the hull. This seems OK to me in the real world, but given that our SR will be flying soon, what is the hull of a flyer and does it include the wings. Feel free to shout at me if this has been discussed to death before. Cheers ant1clock Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 My gaming group and also the local tourneys all play the wings and such as Hull. We use Base for disembarking and obj. claiming/contesting but always measure range to some part of the vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 well the hull is the...hull. Wings do not equal hull. Captain, I think your gaming group needs to go back and re-read what is defined as hull of a vehicle. Rules state hull and turrent are the only target able options. Though my own statement does bring up a question...since you can not target weapons, you can not target the blood strike missiles on the wings. Since the missiles are not a turret nor a hull. RAW the only thing you can shoot, same with valk, would be the BOX part of the model, not the tail, fin, or wings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinarian Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Here we go 'round the mulberry bush again!?! IMHO, I do not believe wings of either should be LOS exempt especially because of the weapons. In regard to the BRB, I don't believe Valks were included in that decision, so then we should probably defer to the specific IA that includes the Valk. But, even with that said, James I moved a similar post to the OFFICIAL RULES forum not too long ago, so let's see what the rest of our PA cousins decided, shall we? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The wings shoot you, you shoot the wings. Heck, my Valk-kitbashed Storm Raven doesn't have weapons on its wings but I still think you should be able to shoot at them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhx711 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The wings shoot you, you shoot the wings. Why does it seem like this statement should have bee preceded by "In mother Russia...."? EDIT: More importantly (to me anyway) are the Blood Strike Missles considered as 1 weapon or 4 for the purposes of weapon destroyed results? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 This has been discussed often, without conclusion. We can keep it going for now, but if it just becomes circular arguments I'll close it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The wings shoot you, you shoot the wings. Why does it seem like this statement should have bee preceded by "In mother Russia...."? EDIT: More importantly (to me anyway) are the Blood Strike Missles considered as 1 weapon or 4 for the purposes of weapon destroyed results? The missiles would be 4 slots for weapon destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezartfox Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 So by the same reasoning... you can't shoot the wings on my landspeeders either? Or the engines on a tau skimmer? With such big models.. I think you can hit the wings. They are quite big.. and getting one shot off will definitely hurt you.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 well the hull is the...hull. Wings do not equal hull. Captain, I think your gaming group needs to go back and re-read what is defined as hull of a vehicle. Rules state hull and turrent are the only target able options. Though my own statement does bring up a question...since you can not target weapons, you can not target the blood strike missiles on the wings. Since the missiles are not a turret nor a hull. RAW the only thing you can shoot, same with valk, would be the BOX part of the model, not the tail, fin, or wings. Ok then, so what do you shoot for Drop Pods? Seeing as you exclude fins and such what do you fire at as there is no "hull" persay on a DP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The rules are really clear about this. Hull and turret. Wings are not hull and turret. Sponsons are not hull and turret Tails are not hull and turret. Hull and Turret are hull and turret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherTim Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 well the hull is the...hull. Wings do not equal hull. Captain, I think your gaming group needs to go back and re-read what is defined as hull of a vehicle. Rules state hull and turrent are the only target able options. Though my own statement does bring up a question...since you can not target weapons, you can not target the blood strike missiles on the wings. Since the missiles are not a turret nor a hull. RAW the only thing you can shoot, same with valk, would be the BOX part of the model, not the tail, fin, or wings. Ok then, so what do you shoot for Drop Pods? Seeing as you exclude fins and such what do you fire at as there is no "hull" persay on a DP. Because the "fins" form the main structure (or hull) of the drop pod I would be inclined to say you can safely target them, however the doors should be excluded just as the wings from any flyer. Granted, it doesn't make sense, but i think this is how the rule was intended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 If it can shoot you, then you can fire at it. Simples :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 That is NOT how TLOS works. Please read your rulebooks. It is a very very simple rule. You cannot shoot anything you can see, you can ONLY target the hull and turrets of a vehicle, and the body of an infantry model. No wings, tails, sponsons, backpacks, weapons or jumpacks/wings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yes but the problem is is what is defined as "hull" for ravens, valks and pods then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The hull is defined as the hull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In aeronautical terms, Hull is interchangeable with fuselage in that it is the main body of the craft. It's not that confusing: Is it the part of the Stormraven that houses the crew or passengers? Yes-shoot it No- You cant shoot it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 well the hull is the...hull. Wings do not equal hull. Captain, I think your gaming group needs to go back and re-read what is defined as hull of a vehicle. Rules state hull and turrent are the only target able options. Though my own statement does bring up a question...since you can not target weapons, you can not target the blood strike missiles on the wings. Since the missiles are not a turret nor a hull. RAW the only thing you can shoot, same with valk, would be the BOX part of the model, not the tail, fin, or wings. Ok then, so what do you shoot for Drop Pods? Seeing as you exclude fins and such what do you fire at as there is no "hull" persay on a DP. The hull would consist of basically everything but the doors, and storm bolter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 well the hull is the...hull. Wings do not equal hull. Captain, I think your gaming group needs to go back and re-read what is defined as hull of a vehicle. Rules state hull and turrent are the only target able options. Though my own statement does bring up a question...since you can not target weapons, you can not target the blood strike missiles on the wings. Since the missiles are not a turret nor a hull. RAW the only thing you can shoot, same with valk, would be the BOX part of the model, not the tail, fin, or wings. Ok then, so what do you shoot for Drop Pods? Seeing as you exclude fins and such what do you fire at as there is no "hull" persay on a DP. The hull would consist of basically everything but the doors, and storm bolter. This basically I reckon, The wings of an aircraft are very often considered part of the fuselage and certainly as part of the basic supporting structure of the aircraft (in the real world). If you want to get really pedantic flyers dont have a hull in the strictest sense, certainly "hull" isent a generally used term where aviation is concerned (there isent even an airport there). So when we refer to the "hull" of a stormraven what exactly do we mean? Presumably we mean the superstructure of the aircraft, i.e. the main bit we attatch all the extras (that are not essential to structural integrity) to. This definition would most certainly include the ravens ample wings (shes not a slim girl by any stretch). I would argue that the "wings" on a landspeeder are fundamentaly different being neither the thing that keeps them in the air nor a part of the superstructure. Wheras the raven would fall appart without its wings, they carry the engines (6 of them!) and appear to form part of the backbone of the aircraft. We might however mean "the bit that looks like the hull of a tank" in which case I guess the wings wouldn't count as they dont look like the main bit of a tank. (I tried re-wording that so it dosent sound like such a straw man and failed, but I think maybe its cause the man really is made of straw!) One of those arguements makes alot more sense to me, but this is FAQ material if ever there was! Does GW not realise there is no such thing as common sense where interpreting 40k rules are concerned?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealadin Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm with Chairman_woo. What happens when you say to a random, big, mean and violent looking gamer the following "Uh no sorry Sir, you can't shoot my Raven because that 60% of the model doesn't actually count as part of the model for targetting" A) He punches you in the face. ^_^ He laughs in your face with spittle going all over you, then punches you in the face. c) He snaps the wings of your Raven, laughs in your face, covering you in spittle, then punches you in the face. Whats wrong with the above situation? Nothing. The big mean violent gamer was basically within his rights. If GWS wanted the model to have a smaller battlefeild aspect then they could have made it a bit more elegant, smaller and not but ugly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Agreed, it's the same with all veichles, apart from weaponary the hull refers to the outer shell of the veichle, not a particular part of it. I found this out after I wasn't allowed to shoot at a soul grinder 'because I was only in range of it's legs'. Total nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2643957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm with Chairman_woo. What happens when you say to a random, big, mean and violent looking gamer the following "Uh no sorry Sir, you can't shoot my Raven because that 60% of the model doesn't actually count as part of the model for targetting" A) He punches you in the face. :lol: He laughs in your face with spittle going all over you, then punches you in the face. c) He snaps the wings of your Raven, laughs in your face, covering you in spittle, then punches you in the face. Whats wrong with the above situation? Nothing. The big mean violent gamer was basically within his rights. If GWS wanted the model to have a smaller battlefeild aspect then they could have made it a bit more elegant, smaller and not but ugly. Targetting issues aside, if said gamer starts breaking my property, he's going to get a fortress of redemption shoved so far up his arse he'll be using the lascannons as a replacement tongue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage Note the areas shaded in brown. Thats the hull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2644032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebsolom Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'd say that wings and tail are fair game for targetting purposes as well as the fuselage. Q. What happens if you blow a wing off an aircraft? A. It crashes! Simples :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2644041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well they're just not fair game at all are they? It's in print: You target the hull. The hull is a specific part of the craft, the main body of it. The wings are not the hull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2644049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Can we move this one to the Official Rules forum, or does it already have a few of them in it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221305-stormraven-hull/#findComment-2644191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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