My second try, very basic outline

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Right, my first try at an IA was okay-ish, but I wasn't happy with it in the end, and trying to clean it up I made it more complicated, so I decided to throw it overboard and start over. Now the first time I wrote a complete IA, then posted; this time, I will do it the other way round. I have an idea, I like it, and I want to know whether you like it and/or whether you have a few ideas what could be better.

And I really need help finding a name, too.

So, first of all, colour scheme and iconography:

- Brother Sergeant, 3rd Co.:

- Most recently painted models (tactical half-squad from 3rd Co. - there is a lot more in the works, the first project is a small mech platoon plus 3 preds)

- Common icons include the red templar cross, swords, wings, and the Dark Angel chapter icon.

- There's generally a lot of the holy-ish looking bits and bobs, like incense, scrolls, parchments, purity seals, and I want some models to have braziers on their backpacks.

- Veteran Marines often wear tabards and robes.

History and characteristics, a bit mixed up

- DA successor chapter, cadre from the Guardians of the Covenant (for their especially monastic character, supporting the new chapter's piety)

- Homeworld populated by deeply religious people --> the chapter believes in the divinity of the emperor

- Due to that strong religious aspect, the chapter crusade a lot

- When the supreme grand master of the Dark Angels (of that time) orders them to withdraw their forces from a major conflict to support the DA in hunting a small group of Fallen, the chapter's grand master refuses, reasoning that 1. the chance of his support making a difference in the hunt is small, 2. the whole crusade would falter without them and 3. committing a new sin to hush up an old one won't do before the omniscient judgement of the emperor.

- That hunt is a disaster, the chapter's grand master is summoned to the rock. He explains his reasoning to the supreme grand master, but is judged a heretic by the latter, and executed as such.

- News of that reach the chapter via a Master of the Dark Angels chapter, who is sent to take command of the chapter because the supreme grand master does not trust the former grand master's designated successor to be loyal.

- The chapter's masters however rally behind that designated successor, overwhelm the Dark Angel and send him back to The Rock via the next rogue trader with a message that the chapter will not continue committing more sins in order to cover up an old sin and that they consider the Dark Angel chapter heretics and traitors.

- Contingents of the Dark Angels and several successors attack the chapter's homeworld in order to destroy them; the chapter asks an other, 'normal' chapter for help, the DA try to destroy those, too, still trying to cover it all up, but when a second chapter comes to assist and my chapter threatens to reveal the DA secret, the DA accept a truce.

- Said truce says that my chapter will not tell anyone of the secret, but will continue keeping that secret via several ranks of initiation, both as the chapter's tradition and as a safety against further DA aggression. They will not otherwise meddle in Unforgiven affairs anymore.

- The chapter now consider themselves the only loyal remnant of the 1. Legion. To make up for the DA legion's sins in their own way, they decide to embark on an eternal crusade of penitence, each strike force only visiting their homeworld for resupply and repairs, and for taking on new recruits.

- Since they do not hunt for the Fallen anymore, they do not employ Death- or Ravenwing formations, but follow the codex organisation pattern in this regard.

Name

Now one of the first things I want to do is give them a name; however, most names I made up do not sound right. But since their chapter symbol is a cross, and they are a DA successor, things with "cross", "angels", and anything alluding to redemption, crusading or the divinity of the emperor could fit. On the other hand, the crusading and divinity part would not have been known to the founders - who would have chosen the name. I am open for any ideas, really. I want a name that sounds good and does a cool, holy-ish, crusading chapter justice.

[Comabat Apothecary]

Ok, so just a few ideas whilst I'm stuck at my desk. The Redemptors or Redeemers, Dark Redemptors or Lions Of Truth? And I was wondering, if your marines are worshiping the Emperor and his divinity rather than following the usual Astartes fluff of distant patriarch, then maybe your chapter could also be chaplain heavy? I think it adds to the religious aspect. Food for thought.

 

CA

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Hey,

yep, many chaplains sounds cool. Hadn't thought of it yet, but I do like those guys in black. Redemptors sounds cool, too, I'll put that on my list. And the truth motive is inspiring, I might incorporate that somehow.

[Marshal Renatus]

Names: the Verdian Blades, the Emperor's Disciples, the Evictors, the Excoriators, Disciples/Broterhood of the Veridian Lance...Green Machine?

 

Also, I think you're going too heavy into your conflict with the DA. Simply refusing to aid in the hunt would make you near-heretical to them. Everything else you've put down would see to your complete and total destruction by the Unforgiven. You'd be up to your eyeballs in murderous,hate-filled, bone-white Terminators.

 

Other than that, it's a solid start. I like the schism with the DA. It just has to be carefully approached. It's like Nepal thumbing its nose at China...you might get an inch, but beyond that you're a part of the next series of history books.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I see where you are coming from, and I agree that it is a fine line. But I really want that actual war between them in my fluff, so instead of leaving it, I shall try to find better reasons why it is feasible.

 

The one thing why I think it is feasible is because of the involvement of other chapters. The DA would want to get too much attention from other imperial authorities, so if enough non-DA forces get involved, the likelihood of the DA standing down is much bigger. Aside from other SM, the chapter could, even before the schism, have had connections to other imperial organisations, for example the ecclesiarchy, due to their population's piety.

 

O, to put it another way: unlike on most SM homeworlds, they could have had the normal ecclesiarchy institutions there, which would mean the DA's attack would have been seen as an attack by the ecclesiarchy, and some diplomatic shuffling later, everyone stops fighting each other and are allowed to live, a bitter hatred remaining.

 

Thoughts?

 

p.s.: the '(Mean) Green (Killing) Machine' is an awesome name, but probably not for marines. :P Knights of the Crimson Cross could be nice, and I also like the word Viridian (I think it is written like that, non?).

[Marshal Renatus]

The one thing why I think it is feasible is because of the involvement of other chapters.

The Dark Angels, or some of their ilk, threatened to open fire on a crusade of the black templars unless they handed over "a prisoner" that the DA wanted. Then, after giving them what they wanted, the BTs disappear enroute to a warp jump point. Now the BTs are an incredibly famous, massively powerful Second Founding Chapter...like 6,000 space marines strong if they ever wanted to harness them all. And the DA didn't even blink to threaten them, and most likely destroy them.

 

Point of all that? Your Chapter is manned by marines who know the truth behind the DA history. They went to war with th BTs over just the possibility that the BT Marshall suspected. You would be swept from existence along with everything else on your planet, and it would look like anything except the DA had done it. And even if they got caught...they'd claim you turned heretic. For they are a former legion and Founding Chapter, and have at least another dozen chapters of almost as equal reknown to corroborate any alibi they want. And you? You have none of these things, lol.

 

Not trying to harsh your vibe, because I like the concept of th schism, but you need to understand just how powerful a Chapter like the DA are going to be. They don't forget and they don't forgive.

 

P.S. You can spell it however you want that works for the Chapter. It just means...well, green.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

I understand why you are so 'harsh', and I find your arguments valid. But the way I see it, what you say is that the DA would not blink to start a full-scale war against another chapter, and I agree. That is exactly what they do in my storyline. Now what I need is a way for my chapter, and preferably their homeworld, to survive that war somehow.

 

A schism without a war is not bad, but it is not what I want. So either I have to find a believable way my chapter survived, or a different reason for the schism that would allow the war to be fought about a less volatile matter. The following is another take on the first option, but I am open to ideas for implementing the second way.

 

 

The idea I had was that the involvement of other institutions might stop the DA. I can see that simply having other marines in the game won't stop them.

However, even in your example, the DA made sure it was not on record that they had actually destroyed the BT crusade.

 

So I can think of several situations where even the DA would probably agree to a truce, and that's where I want to get: any situation in which destruction of parties with dangerous knowledge will not work because they could get the knowledge out before their demise.

 

So, for example if at any point, the last desperate marines of my chapter threaten to reveal the secret, and can realistically be able to do so, for example because they already sent a small group of Deathwing members to the next ecclesiarchical fortress with orders to reveal the secret if they do not hear from their chapter within some agreed-upon period, then imo this could lead to a truce.

 

 

Edit: Maybe a different, less problematic reason for schism would be the matter of the divinity of the emperor. I realise, though, that I still want there to be some tragedy and treason involved, like the grand master simply being executed without any actual hearing, and the newly appointed guy being attacked by the masters and so on.

 

Any schism that would result in my chapter splitting of from the Unforgiven, however, would also mean the DA would want to see them dead for knowing what they should not know, right?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

*climbs out of the box*

 

You want Dark Angels? Look at it from a different angle...

 

Young Chapter, see no reason why the should pay for the sins of their forebears and so only make a small observance of hunting the Fallen.. You know, how when the boss turns up you look busy?

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

*climbs out of the box*

 

You want Dark Angels? Look at it from a different angle...

 

Young Chapter, see no reason why the should pay for the sins of their forebears and so only make a small observance of hunting the Fallen.. You know, how when the boss turns up you look busy?

 

Nah, that is exactly not what I want. If I just wanted a random DA successor, I'd go with one of the six in the codex. They are friggin cool. I'd probably choose the .. nah, I'd make a combined force of several Unforgiven chapters. Go me!

 

But I don't want that, I want a chapter that is descended from DA, but decides, out of piety, ie religious devotion to the divine emperor, that hunting the fallen and covering up their ancient sin is wrong and that only by being saints in the present can they gain his forgiveness. And I want that to be 'discussed' with the rest of the Unforgiven via a somewhat tragic story of betrayal and war.

 

So... yeah, thanks for making me express my goal in so few words. :P That will make me start to think again.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Two major problems with that premise, for me.

 

One - The Emperor isnt divine to basically 99.99% of Astartes.

 

Two - The Dark Angels would have a heavy influence on the early life of the Chapter, an influence hard to overcome.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Two major problems with that premise, for me.

 

One - The Emperor isnt divine to basically 99.99% of Astartes.

 

Where does it say that? It says somewhere that most Astartes view him as the greatest of men, but not that all think so. In fact, I think one or two of the badab war chapters believe in his divinity.

 

Two - The Dark Angels would have a heavy influence on the early life of the Chapter, an influence hard to overcome.

 

Yes, and in good stories, things go against the odds. I think I didn't flesh that out enough in the first post, so here goes:

- they are trained by the guardians of the covenant, who put special emphasis on the monkish character of space marines in general and the DA in particular and who study as much as they train for war

- they are assigned a homeworld, the population of which - and thus their recruitment base - is extremely religious. Let us make this extreme, as that always works well in 40k, and let us say that the first words of most children born there are "Holy Emperor of Mankind" or "The Emperor Protects" (btw, I just love that quote).

- so the first generations studied all the imperial the scriptures they could lay their hands on, including many religious texts from their homeworld, all the time recruiting deeply religious people and trying to make them believe the emperor was not a god.

- at some point, there are more believers in the chapter than 'atheists', and done.

- from there, the route to "let us not waste time hunting the fallen when there is an imperium of man to save in the name of the holy emperor" is a short one.

 

 

I think this part is actually quite believable.

[Marshal Renatus]

You really need to read Dark Apostle Thirst's IA: Lords of Shadow. He is wrestling with the same issues, but from 180 degrees. Many of the comments he received would help you better understand why you are receiving the resistance to this idea that you are.

 

Ulimately, it's your chapter and your IA. If you really want them to go to war with the DA, then have at it. Remember, we're only here to provide advice and opinion. If you aren't hearing what you want to, then feel free to tune those posts out. No harm, no foul. ;)

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

You really need to read Dark Apostle Thirst's IA: Lords of Shadow. He is wrestling with the same issues, but from 180 degrees. Many of the comments he received would help you better understand why you are receiving the resistance to this idea that you are.

 

Ulimately, it's your chapter and your IA. If you really want them to go to war with the DA, then have at it. Remember, we're only here to provide advice and opinion. If you aren't hearing what you want to, then feel free to tune those posts out. No harm, no foul. ;)

 

I will have a look at it. And I know I do not need to make you happy with my ideas. I may after all just go with my story regardless of your opinion, but I would not have posted here if I didn't enjoy reading your opinions and if your input wouldn't help me develop those ideas. So please go on. :pinch:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Two major problems with that premise, for me.

 

One - The Emperor isnt divine to basically 99.99% of Astartes.

 

Where does it say that? It says somewhere that most Astartes view him as the greatest of men, but not that all think so. In fact, I think one or two of the badab war chapters believe in his divinity.

 

You actually prove my point.. Out of all the Chapters who participated in the Badab War, maybe one or two worshipped the Emperor - one or two out of about forty Chapters. Worship of the Emperor is an exception to the rule.

 

Also, the Astartes agreement with the Eccleisarchy points to it as well.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Two major problems with that premise, for me.

 

One - The Emperor isnt divine to basically 99.99% of Astartes.

 

Where does it say that? It says somewhere that most Astartes view him as the greatest of men, but not that all think so. In fact, I think one or two of the badab war chapters believe in his divinity.

 

You actually prove my point.. Out of all the Chapters who participated in the Badab War, maybe one or two worshipped the Emperor - one or two out of about forty Chapters. Worship of the Emperor is an exception to the rule.

 

Also, the Astartes agreement with the Eccleisarchy points to it as well.

 

1. One or two out of about fifteen that are described in detail.

 

2. Even if it is one out of forty, that is a lot more than 0.01% (2.5%, to be exact).

 

3. If choosing the exception to the rule as you chapter would make a DIY-chapter bad, we'd all play ultras.

 

Their belief is one of the two major points of the backstory. Arguing against that is arguing against the whole concept. If I drop the whole divinity issue, I can start from scratch - and I don't want to.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Their belief is one of the two major points of the backstory. Arguing against that is arguing against the whole concept. If I drop the whole divinity issue, I can start from scratch - and I don't want to.

 

Which is entirely your choice, but you put it here for critique.. It'd be pointless saying what I think you want to hear :cuss

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

As said above, I want opinions. But I don't want to change the basic premises of the concept: divinity and schism. I would change the paths to achieve these two pillars, though.

 

But I do not understand why the matter of their belief would make the concept bad. If it had no reason, if there was no connection to the rest of the theme. If it was a tacked-on afterthought "Oh, and I like religious fanatics, so let's go with divinity of the emperor, too". Then I'd understand why you think it is bad. But it is not so, it is one of the two major points, and they are connected. That whole schism idea is based on the idea that they'd re-evaluate the Unforgiven dogma in the context of their differing belief.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

There is no relevant and considered source for this belief to come from, it appears from nowhere - unless I'm just really blind.

 

They re-evaluate because they recruit from a religious planet? A Marine retains very little, if anything, of his former personality or characteristics.. That is what hypno-conditioning is for.. So strong religious beliefs - in a child!? - wouldn't hold true.

 

Chapters do absorb culture and beliefs that can alter the way that Chapter acts or fights, but there needs to be a cast-iron reason for Astartes to worship the Emperor.. "Because the natives do it.." doesn't cut it in my opinion.

 

Also, a world where religion was such a central and important part would most likely come under the aegis of the Eccliesiarchy.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Religion, in my experience, especially if it is supported by a whole culture of religiousness, is far harder to remove than anything else in the human psyche. And if stuff like war paint can pass the hypno-conditioning intact, religion certainly can. So I think my reason for them being so religious is quite relevant and considered.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. I see no major violation of canon, and certainly not one so strong that it would break the suspension of disbelief.

[Comabat Apothecary]

There is no relevant and considered source for this belief to come from, it appears from nowhere - unless I'm just really blind.

 

They re-evaluate because they recruit from a religious planet? A Marine retains very little, if anything, of his former personality or characteristics.. That is what hypno-conditioning is for.. So strong religious beliefs - in a child!? - wouldn't hold true.

 

Chapters do absorb culture and beliefs that can alter the way that Chapter acts or fights, but there needs to be a cast-iron reason for Astartes to worship the Emperor.. "Because the natives do it.." doesn't cut it in my opinion.

 

Also, a world where religion was such a central and important part would most likely come under the aegis of the Eccliesiarchy.

 

 

Remember he's not just saying His chapter comes form a religious planet, and has a religious recruitment pool so therefore - religious marines, more that they are very studious chapter to begin with, and more than likely adopt the Eccliesiarchy cult as time goes by, becoming more and more religious as a result of study, the population and culture and maybe other things, like seeing results come to pass from the emperors’ tarot and such like.

 

Hey, chapters can turn to chaos quickly enough, so to turn to religion, I can buy that no problems. Plus it doesn't have to be 100% cannon, it's a home brew chapter after all.

 

 

edit for: mong spelling

[Grand Master Tyrak]

As said above, I want opinions. But I don't want to change the basic premises of the concept: divinity and schism. I would change the paths to achieve these two pillars, though.

 

The problem I have with that is that the paths don't stop once you've achieved your aims. You still have the deal with the in-universe consequences.

 

I'm not keen on how you achieve the split from the DA - it's a bit too overt. The DA aren't likely to risk being found out like that. However, the basic idea is workable.

 

As I see it there are two possible sets of consequences. The first is that the DA use their reputation to engineer your Chapter's downfall (details can be worked out at another time) which results in your Chapter being declared renegade and hunted across the galaxy. That get's you a fairly reasonable "renegade but still loyal to the Emperor" angle, although personally I think that idea's been done to death.

The second idea is that the DA are unable to stop your Chapter overtly and so have to work secretly. That basically means that you are still hunted across the Imperium by the Unforgiven, but without you having to go renegade. That leaves you with a Chapter that's stuck in a permanent stern chase and constantly has to stay on the move, unable to face the Unforgiven through force and without enough influence to seek help from anyone in the Imperium without running the risk of being excommunicated and killed.

 

The first angle is self-explanatory, so I'll elaborate on the second one. The best way to stop an overt attack would be a friendship with a major Imperial organisation, and since you're going with a Chapter that follows the Imperial Cult that means the Ecclesiarchy. You don't actually have to be closely allied with them in order to get this effect (IMO an actual alliance would be going too far), you just need to make the Unforgiven think that attacking you openly wouldn't work. The Ecclesiarchy might actually be gently trying to push you away to prevent a breach of the ban on an Ecclesiarchy military force, but the Unforgiven aren't going to know that. It's their perception of things that matters, and that means you can use this to justify this underground war.

Since your Chapter is going to have to do a lot of running, would it break your heart to have a fleet-based Chapter and have the religious angle introduced from another source? It means you won't have to explain what happened to your homeworld and make your Chapter more mobile. I'm not suggesting you get it from the Ecclesiarchy though; it makes more sense to bring them in after the Chapter embraces the Imperial Cult, as a consequence of the Chapter's new mindset.

 

Lastly you're going to have to keep this subtle. This could easily provoke a major change to the background of the DA, and that's not really an option that's open to you. Spread it out so it's the Unforgiven that are hunting you, not just the DA, in order to minimise the impact. Remove any chance of you being able to spill the beans about the Fallen, or else you transform your Chapter into a loaded gun pointed straight at the Unforgiven. If you want to make this work, you need to be an unresolved problem for the DA, but not an immediate problem - you won't cooperate on the Fallen but you can't threaten the DA by telling the rest of the Imperium either. The only way out is for you to gain a sufficiently high reputation to openly challenge the DA. Since you'd need to serve till about M46 to do that, it won't disrupt the current universe. You need to play for time for many millennia, but there's no pressing need for the DA to take you out. They don't even have to be actively pursuing you - as long as your Chapter believes that it's being hunted with no way to defeat the hunters it will keep running. They could just be sending small diplomatic teams to try and convince you of the error of your ways. They may not even be pursuing you at all. Your Chapter could just be running to minimise the risk and preserve the knowledge of the truth so that one day the Unforgiven might be redeemed. Who knows? All your Chapter needs is to perceive that it is under threat from the Unforgiven.

 

 

I don't know whether this is what you were looking for, but as far as I can see this is the only way to put both your ideas into a workable form whilst still fitting into the shared universe. :devil:

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Thank you for the ideas. I still want some kind of war fought between them about the schism, and I am not really a fan of running away. Especially not as a space marine commander. So I'll have to think of something else.

[BloodWulf]

some points that I keep coming to.

 

You would be facing all of the Unforgiven, not just the DA. Bringing in another chapter seems a bit cowardly but also, what Chapter would come to your aid vs the DA and their other Successor chapters? Imagine your back is to the wall and you put out a distress call and Chapter X picks it up.

"This chapter, The Knights Viridian, are calling for assistance."

"Who are they?" "A Dark Angels successor"

"What do they need assistance with?" "The Dark Angles and their successors"

 

The Unforgiven have enough power that even 2 chpaters vs. them doesnt seem like much of a challenge. Plus it seems just as easy that if you split, all the Unforgiven masters could spin a tale of your fall to Heresy and it would be your one chapter vs. all of them and any inquisition forces they can get to bear on you.

 

You get declared Heretics and the DA doesnt care if you reveal their "secrets" as these tales come from one Rogue chapter.

 

 

the other point I see: say you get this 2nd chapter to come to your aid. They aren't going to stay there with you near your homeworld and defend you. Eventually they will leave. Aside from a signed "truce" I dont see the Unforgiven from coming back to take care of the loose end that is your chapter.

 

I am not saying your concept isn't doable but I think its going to take more work than you expected. To be Honest the whole time I wsa reading this I was wondering why you didnt just play a Black Templars Crusade who happens to like to paint their armor green.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Because I like Librarians. :mellow:

[BloodWulf]

Fair enough, they are pretty cool. ;)

 

as for a name, how did Knights Viridian grab you? or Knights Verdant? Angels Viridian, etc...Angels Errant? Angels of Sanctity?

 

I love the color scheme you have picked.