Iron Warriors and Iron Hands

[tiberium40k]

A few weeks ago I saw a comment on another website about the Iron Hands Legion and Iron Warriors Legion being practically the same Legion split between two Primarchs and later loyalties. Of course this isnt true, but I thought about it further and concluded that perhaps this wold be a somwhat common fallacy amongst in-universe humans. Both Legions have close relations to Mars, have a better relation to technology then other Legion, and finally both have the word "Iron" in their titles.

 

Now I know there are quite a few differences (ex. IWs better with war engines while IHs are better at forging weapons), but would these differences really be as clearly visible to pre-heresy Imperials as they are to us?

[Xisor]

I think this calls up a lot of the 'culture' of the two legions. On the face of it (and given the points you put), it's a pretty fair case to make: they're similarly named and don't exactly carry themselves with immense distinction compared to other legions (Space Wolves & World Eaters being renowned as 'loose cannons', presumably, and the Night Lords just being thoroughly unpleasant would make them mightily distinctive due to the prejudices).

 

But, on a deeper more speculative level, I wonder what the distinctions between the two really are. At least as far as Mechanicum goes, it's the Salamanders who're noted as particularly close/valued by the Mechanicum (perhaps due to Nocturne's wealth?) and I'd be partially inclined to speculate that, because not much was made of it in Fulgrim, that Ferrus Manus' legion prior-to-his-death wasn't actually too close to the Martians. Liken it to the development of the Imperial Creed over time. It'd have to be underground. There's the old speculation about Ferrus' body being returned to Mars. Perhaps it was a Martian team who found Ferrus' body and used that as a bargaining chip to get their talons into their very own Astartes Chapter? Certainly, after the death of their primarch and veterans, it wouldn't be surprising to see the Martians make a move on at least one of the tech-eminent legions (Salamanders and Raven Guard being the others?).

 

So in that regard, I could see the Iron Hands-Mechanicus relationship being very much a post-heresy thing, whilst pre-heresy they might be much more of a 'classic' Legion (and certainly in regards to their portrayal in Fulgrim, they're not exactly that distinct from the Death Guard as presented early in Flight of the Eisenstein).

 

[NB: I see a few legions being somewhat 'unremarkable/generic' in that regard. The Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Death Guard, Salamanders, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists don't really have 'Unique Selling Points' pre-Heresy. The Luna Wolves also come into this category, save for their legacy and their leader. Sure, the IF/IW have the old 'siege' thing going on, but that's hardly that remarkable compared to, say, the Luna Wolves and Dark Angels just being some of the most successful legions existent. Note that that's why I wouldn't include the Ultras/Word Bearers on the generic list because they're simply gargantuan organisations that manage to still lag behind the DAs/LWs, and that they do have USPs [slow&faith/empire building]]

 

But with the Iron Warriors? Love Storm of Iron as much as I did, it's very much a 'renegades siege' novel (in the style of Gav Thorpe's 5th Edition Codex ideology: the Legion's a shadow/parody of itself, what happens in 40k is something very different from the actual legacy of 30k) contrasted with the Night Lords in Soul Hunter and the portrayal of traitors in Cadian Blood.

 

So, pre-Heresy Iron Warriors? They got a good send-up in After Desh'ea where they are very much just Astartes. But in the way that makes you go "oooh, space marines!". Culturally? Philosophically?

 

There's almost nothing to them. They are indeed Astartes. They don't even have the morbid-endurance shtick of the Death Guard. I think that stands to reason why they could be perceived as having a very close relation with the Mechanicum. Spread a legion across the galaxy, who do they have to turn to for friends? Humans and the Mechanicum. It's hardly surprising they chose the Mechanicum.

 

Philosophically, I can see a lot in common between the two. Not a pursuit of knowledge or a veneration of technology, not that sort of ideology, but a more simple and bare-bones adherence to efficiency, applications of strength, capability and prowess. An infinite, iron-like patience, you might say.

 

In that way the Iron Hands have their 'background', but it's yet to even really begin fermenting. With the Iron Warriors it's that very mundane and somewhat unappealing 'boring' quality that makes them distinctive. Of course, I don't think they're actually boring, look at the preview for their short in Age of Darkness, for instance. There's oodles of interesting things that can be done with, to and by them...but it's not because of who they are. They make compelling protagonists and candidates for stories, IMO, not because of some pre-existing theme or USP to them, but because they're actually pretty close to a blank slate. You could tell an immense tale about an astartes via an Iron Warrior, without it being befuddled by obscure hangups and history that needs to be shoehorned into the story.

 

No Cypher, no bloodnouns or wolfnouns or synonyms of fire, no focus on Horus and no very omnipresent aspect to them (like sorcery). They're a pretty hands-down, baseline legion. That they get to have a reputation as 'into the Mechanicum' is a curious but providential by-product.

 

I think I just sold myself on being really interested in Iron Warriors.

[Dominicus]

Honestly, if you want to compare legions pre-heresy, this is how I personally would connect them:

Imperial Fists----Iron Warriors

Iron Hands----Salamanders

Night Lords----Raven Guard

Dark Angels----Luna Wolves

Space Wolves-----World Eaters

All the other Legions were pretty much incomparable to one another.

[Kassill]

Honestly, if you want to compare legions pre-heresy, this is how I personally would connect them:

Imperial Fists----Iron Warriors

Iron Hands----Salamanders

Night Lords----Raven Guard

Dark Angels----Luna Wolves

Space Wolves-----World Eaters

All the other Legions were pretty much incomparable to one another.

 

 

Always heard it like,

 

IF--IW(seige/fortifyers)

IH--Sallies(forgers)

AL--RG(recon)

BA--WE(CC)

SW--TS(wild cards)

etc, etc...

[Dominicus]

Honestly, if you want to compare legions pre-heresy, this is how I personally would connect them:

Imperial Fists----Iron Warriors

Iron Hands----Salamanders

Night Lords----Raven Guard

Dark Angels----Luna Wolves

Space Wolves-----World Eaters

All the other Legions were pretty much incomparable to one another.

 

 

Always heard it like,

 

IF--IW(seige/fortifyers)

IH--Sallies(forgers)

AL--RG(recon)

BA--WE(CC)

SW--TS(wild cards)

etc, etc...

 

Space Wolves and Thousand Sons really aren't very comparable. Yes, they may be wild cards, but the Space Wolves despised, and still despise, sorcery or psychic powers in any form save those of their own Rune Priest, who believe that they harness their power through the living energy of their home world of Fenris, not rough the Warp. The Thousand Sons were psykers all, manipulators of the Warp, and for that, the Wolves would be their anti-thesis. It's like Khorne and Tzeentch.

Alpha Legion and Raven Guard would be correct, as they both employed trickery and recon.

Blood Angels and World Eaters could be compared to an extent. The World Eaters were much more vicious in CC fighting than the Blood Angels, making them similar to the Space Wolves.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That, and too many Legions have a unique method of fighting that isn't simply "oh, X? They're a Traitor/Loyalist version of Y!" For example, the Night Lords don't have any real "twin Legion", other than possibly the World Eaters or Luna Wolves, as their preferred tactic was a single heavy strike, utterly annihilating the enemy and leaving others in no doubt what would come for them if they fought too. They aren't, and never have been, (except in misinterpreted fan opinion, repeated and repeated ad nauseam until people think it's true) "those Chaos guys with lots of jump-packs."

 

 

Rune Priests, who harness their power through the living energy of their home world of Fenris.

 

Yes, which is why the Rune Priests can use their powers even when they're not on Fenris. The whole "living energy" stuff is just the Wolves shamanistic rationalisation of how their psykers use their powers, based on the Fenrisian tribesmens ignorance of the Warp, leading to a superstition which has been passed over into the actual Legion.

[Billuriye]

Space Wolves and Thousand Sons really aren't very comparable. Yes, they may be wild cards, but the Space Wolves despised, and still despise, sorcery or psychic powers in any form save those of their own Rune Priest, who harness their power through the living energy of their home world of Fenris. The Thousand Sons were psykers all, manipulators of the Warp, and for that, the Wolves would be their anti-thesis. It's like Khorne and Tzeentch.

 

A rune priest taps into warp just as a psyker does. Fenris mumbo jumbo is conjured by Leman's hypocritical mindset.

[Dominicus]

Space Wolves and Thousand Sons really aren't very comparable. Yes, they may be wild cards, but the Space Wolves despised, and still despise, sorcery or psychic powers in any form save those of their own Rune Priest, who harness their power through the living energy of their home world of Fenris. The Thousand Sons were psykers all, manipulators of the Warp, and for that, the Wolves would be their anti-thesis. It's like Khorne and Tzeentch.

 

A rune priest taps into warp just as a psyker does. Fenris mumbo jumbo is conjured by Leman's hypocritical mindset.

Nonetheless, the Wolves still despise sorcery in any form.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

A few weeks ago I saw a comment on another website about the Iron Hands Legion and Iron Warriors Legion being practically the same Legion split between two Primarchs and later loyalties. Of course this isnt true, but I thought about it further and concluded that perhaps this wold be a somwhat common fallacy amongst in-universe humans. Both Legions have close relations to Mars, have a better relation to technology then other Legion, and finally both have the word "Iron" in their titles.

 

Now I know there are quite a few differences (ex. IWs better with war engines while IHs are better at forging weapons), but would these differences really be as clearly visible to pre-heresy Imperials as they are to us?

 

I think their differences would be quite clear to pre-heresy imperials (not to mention post heresy XD)

The Iron Warriors first and foremost are seige masters. They were and are, fortress breakers. The Iron Hands are cyborg marines for all intents and purposes. Their infantry are insanely tough and hard to kill. not to mention the extreme use of Terminator Armor. The Salamanders are just as capable technologicaly as the IH and IW but know one compares them to said legions...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Both "Iron" Legions and the Salamanders are all technologically-minded legions, the difference is how they go about it. The Irons Hands & Warriors have a Mechanicum-style feel, very industrial, mass-produced theme. The Sallies are all about blacksmiths rather than production lines -- a quality over quantity theme. That's why they're excluded from this sort of discussion; they don't fit in.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

Both "Iron" Legions and the Salamanders are all technologically-minded legions, the difference is how they go about it. The Irons Hands & Warriors have a Mechanicum-style feel, very industrial, mass-produced theme. The Sallies are all about blacksmiths rather than production lines -- a quality over quantity theme. That's why they're excluded from this sort of discussion; they don't fit in.

 

I see your point, however Ferrus Manus was a blacksmith. ^^

[Dominicus]

Both "Iron" Legions and the Salamanders are all technologically-minded legions, the difference is how they go about it. The Irons Hands & Warriors have a Mechanicum-style feel, very industrial, mass-produced theme. The Sallies are all about blacksmiths rather than production lines -- a quality over quantity theme. That's why they're excluded from this sort of discussion; they don't fit in.

 

I see your point, however Ferrus Manus was a blacksmith. ^^

Exactly why it makes more sense to put the Salamanders and Iron Hands as similar, and the Iron Warriors are more siege-minded, like the Imperial Fists.

[Aegnor]

Think they would have been quite notably different in reality but whether humans who had not spent time with them would appreciate the differences seems doubtful - as Legolas said in LoTR, when you yourself are not a sheep, one sheep looks much like another.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Both "Iron" Legions and the Salamanders are all technologically-minded legions, the difference is how they go about it. The Irons Hands & Warriors have a Mechanicum-style feel, very industrial, mass-produced theme. The Sallies are all about blacksmiths rather than production lines -- a quality over quantity theme. That's why they're excluded from this sort of discussion; they don't fit in.

 

I see your point, however Ferrus Manus was a blacksmith. ^^

 

 

Incorrect. Go back and read Fulgrim, where Ferrus was putting the Fireblade back together after Fulgrim snapped it. He wasn't smithing anything; his C'tan-skin hands let him manipulate the metal without putting it to fire or anvil. He even remarks to someone (I forget who and don't have a book handy) about the combi-flamer he built for Vulkan that Vulkan gave it back because he didn't like using a weapon that wasn't built with a hammer or some such. Maybe I'm taking the term blacksmith too literally, but to me Vulkan is the smith and Ferrus represents machinery.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Incorrect. Go back and read Fulgrim, where Ferrus was putting the Fireblade back together after Fulgrim snapped it. He wasn't smithing anything; his C'tan-skin hands let him manipulate the metal without putting it to fire or anvil. He even remarks to someone (I forget who and don't have a book handy) about the combi-flamer he built for Vulkan that Vulkan gave it back because he didn't like using a weapon that wasn't built with a hammer or some such. Maybe I'm taking the term blacksmith too literally, but to me Vulkan is the smith and Ferrus represents machinery.

 

Counterpoint: The First Heretic and his forging of Illuminarum for Lorgar was done through smithing. I would say he was an adept enough shaper to know whether or not what he was crafting would require hands or tools, and I suspect he used his hands as hammers themselves. But there's definitely forge, fire, and anvil present on that occasion.

[tiberium40k]

Counterpoint: The First Heretic and his forging of Illuminarum for Lorgar was done through smithing. I would say he was an adept enough shaper to know whether or not what he was crafting would require hands or tools, and I suspect he used his hands as hammers themselves. But there's definitely forge, fire, and anvil present on that occasion.

 

Yes, but blacksmith is not the first thing most people would think when thinking about the Iron Hands. That would be bionics and machines. The Salamanders dont use bionics and machinery as much as the "Iron" Legions do. So you could say the Salamanders and Iron Hands have a common trait in forgeworks while the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists have a common trait in siege warfare, but neither the Imperial Fists nor the Salamanders integrate technology in their Legions as much as the IHs and IWs. Even in The First Heretic the Tech-Adept lauds the IHs and IWs as the "technological Legions", and doesn`t mention the Sallies at all. The common theme between the IHs and IWs is extensive use and knowledge of technology and this marks them out.

[Aegnor]

Sallies like to make things because they feel the process itself is of worth - it's the process, not the product Vulkan wanted his sons to appreciate and value, as a method of learning discipline and endurance. Iron Hands like the product itself - the process is important in that it be done well and efficiently, but it is strictly a means to an end - the end being cool gear that made them stronger.

[Xisor]

Even in The First Heretic the Tech-Adept lauds the IHs and IWs as the "technological Legions", and doesn`t mention the Sallies at all. The common theme between the IHs and IWs is extensive use and knowledge of technology and this marks them out.

 

It did? Mechanicum has Fabricator-Locum Kain remark on a Salamanders being particularly favourable Legion for the Martians to work with.

 

All said and done though, I do see the point that the Salamanders 'game' isn't about machines, it's about other stuff. But, as I mentioned earlier, in Heresy era the Iron Warriors do seem to have been heavily pro machine, yet what we've seen of the Iron Hands and their role with the Mechanicus is largely post heresy. Indeed, except for Ferrus himself being quite adept at the old 'making top-knotch stuff' game, the Iron Hands don't seem to have a huge investment in it in the HH era.

[tiberium40k]

It did? Mechanicum has Fabricator-Locum Kain remark on a Salamanders being particularly favourable Legion for the Martians to work with.

 

Here is the quote:

It was said other Legions worked more harmoniously with the Martian Cybernatica cult, especially the blessed Iron Hands and unbreakable Iron Warriors - both of whom enjoyed the Mechanicum`s immense (and immensly valuable) respect from the first days their forces joined the Terran Emperor`s crusade.

 

[Yogi]

Every legion is a unique snowflake!

 

haha

 

None of the legions fit well as mirrors unless all you look at is one factor, like combat style etc.