Captain Zamiel Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Okay the way I see it is that Librarians are the psyker marines in the chapter who also look after all the knowledge the chapter has accumulated. Chaplains are the spiritual leaders of the chapter and are in charge of the chapter's cult. My question is this, could they be one and the same in a chapter, like a Librarian- Chaplain? The Librarians are already looking after the knowledge of the chapter so it shouldn't be such a large leap for them to also be in charge of their cult if the marines in their chapter were particularly accepting of psykers. I could see connections being drawn between a marines soul or spirit and their presence in the warp. Also the Emperor is the most potent psyker that the human race ever produced so I could see a spiritual connection there... And yes before anyone asks I am trying to do this in my own IA... :rolleyes: So what does everyone else think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Gonna say no here. The Chaplains are the Spiritual Guardians of the Chapter, overseeing the health and well-being of their brothers in matters of faith and purity. The Librarians are the most vulnerable to corruption and therefore would be a poor choice to become Chaplains, because if corrupted, they could allow it foster in their brothers in a twisted faith. Much like the Word Bearers. Combining the two would detract from the Chapter overall as the watchers of purity would be the most easily corrupted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I agree with Shinzaren here. Too much chance of corruption (maybe that's what you want?). Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In fact, the Chaplains were first created to be the polar opposites of Librarians. However, you could always shift some things around here and there to make something interesting. For example, the Stormseers of the White Scars (their Librarians) are thought by some to incorporate certain priestly responsibilities that are more commonly associated with Chaplains, while that Chapter still has Chaplains. Likewise, the Iron Fathers of the Iron Hands combine both Techmarine and Chaplain into a single package, whereas both the Space Wolves and Blood Angels have mish-mashed the roles of their Chaplains and Apothecaries (Wolf Priests and Sanguinary Priests, respectively). It probably wouldn't be totally beyond the pale to see a Chapter in which Librarians have assumed a more "priestly" aspect while retaining the Chaplains in their pure forms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shiny One Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I had the same idea, and I would say its difficult but not imposible. The Iron Hands combine the Chaplains and Techmarines, so the chapter cult can be looked after while doing other things. If your chapter got an odd Librarian cult like the White Scars Stormseers, or the Space Wolves Runepriests, its more likely than using a chapter that mistrusts there Librarians. The Runepriests by narrating the sagas, they are already part of the chapter cult. And the Stormseers are part of the recruiting process so have a very high influence on the chapters development. And as they both see the psykic powers more as a connection to the planets and not to the warp, the risk argument doesn't count for this specific chapters. So if you are careful and orientate on the things above, why not? The Novamarines and Crimeson Shades are mentioned to have odd librarians, but its not elaborated how they work. Combining Chaplains and Librarians could be one... Edit: Sorry for posting the same thing, just took to long writing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 i agree, its not impossible, just seemingly insurmountable LOL. i thought of doing that with my Librarians and Chaplains in my children of eternity. i decided against presenting such an idea, for simple reason is it completely waters down both their roles, and the fluff and flavor of the characters themselves. the stormseers and wolf priests seem to be combined more on a cultural belief level of the respective chapters homeworld and people. The Blood Angels sanguinary priests arent really chaplains at all, just apothecaries that focus more on blood ritual, so there not really apothecary-chaplain combinations. the Iron Father is Chaplain-Techmarine and I believe some apothecary skill but they still have typical apothecaries if i recall properly. Based on iron hand belief and ethos, i can understand why the techmarine would need to have a basic understanding of biology like an apothecary, flesh and machine are mixed with them so heavily. librarian chaplain, i dont see it working, period. the chapter that is all psyker based is grey knights, and if i remember correctly, ive never heard of an instance of them fielding chaplains, or even see people modeling GK Chaplains. im afraid this combination just isnt workable. you can have both librarian and chaplain work closely together but not in the same person In my opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The Librarians are the most vulnerable to corruption I disagree, I think that is a common misconception. Librarians have the most training in regards to resisting the influence of the Warp and can percieve it's influence, and I think that the regular Battle Brothers are far more vulnerable because they lack much of that training and totally lack that level of perception. In fact I use this idea myself in my Falcon Knights Chapter, when the rest of the Chapter falls under the influence of an extremely powerful curse it is the Librarians that remain strong and "uncursed". the chapter that is all psyker based is grey knights, and if i remember correctly, ive never heard of an instance of them fielding chaplains, or even see people modeling GK Chaplains. We don't know what we are going to see in their new Codex yet, it is highly unlikely in my opinion that they don't have some form of Chaplain type looking after the spiritual and mental well-being of even the Grey Knights, it may just be that they don't field their Chaplains in battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2643995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Heru, I agree I would find it definitely odd for the Grey Knights, all psyker to NOT have a reclusiarchy. above all they would need it to most, i mean if we were to put it in reality perspective if 40k existed. What astarte deal with on common basis in comparison to what Grey Knights deal with is a world of difference. They would need Chaplains like we need water LOL :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 With the Grey Knights - at least in the novels - they are given the appearance of having a bond within the squads that transcends that of regular Astartes, which aids in the use of "communion" style psychic powers.. Which might explain that lack of Chaplains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In the Grey Knights novels, they do have Chaplains. Alaric seeks his advice in the beginning of book one. He is described as wearing termie armor with lightning claws, and has one arm painted all black. In regards to Librarians being more easily corrupted, it's just a matter of fact. They draw on the powers of the Warp to use their abilities and each time they do, their soul flares like a beacon, drawing the malevolent gaze of the warp. Thus, they have a hugely increased risk of possession,, madness, insanity, and any other debilitating affects that a regular marine, whose presence in the Warp is near minimal, wouldn't have. They might be stronger against the corruption of fighting a Chaos force, but even that is up to discussion since they feel the presence of the Warp and the temptation more greatly than their brothers. Just my thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In regards to Librarians being more easily corrupted, it's just a matter of fact. "Easier" should be replaced by "more likely"... They possess the ability to deny the Warp, but their powers act as a beacon to draw entities to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 so what would the reason be as to why GK have never had a single brother fall? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 so what would the reason be as to why GK have never had a single brother fall? At the heart of every GK's soul is a diamond hard core of pure faith. This, combines with the stripped identity, hexagrammic wards, litanies, and the Aegis suit, make it physically painful for demonic entities to even be near a GK, much less possess one. Their faith is a literal weapon against the demonic and against corruption. Their lives belong completely to the Emperor, and so the normal corruption and temptation that befalls lesser troops has no effect on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Most likely to be seen isn't the same as more easily possessed. If you put a regular Battle Brother and a Librarian infront of two possession Daemons that are completely equal, the regular Battle Brother is going to be more easily possessed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 so what would the reason be as to why GK have never had a single brother fall? At the heart of every GK's soul is a diamond hard core of pure faith. This, combines with the stripped identity, hexagrammic wards, litanies, and the Aegis suit, make it physically painful for demonic entities to even be near a GK, much less possess one. Their faith is a literal weapon against the demonic and against corruption. Their lives belong completely to the Emperor, and so the normal corruption and temptation that befalls lesser troops has no effect on them. how come no other chapter can come to this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Most likely to be seen isn't the same as more easily possessed. If you put a regular Battle Brother and a Librarian infront of two possession Daemons that are completely equal, the regular Battle Brother is going to be more easily possessed. true, i think the difference is 1. the librarian is trained to deal with them but 2. a librarian will be more targeted then other astartes because of their psyker signature. its like a target on their head Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I believe that the larger the presence in the warp the more likely that you gain the attention of something attempting to corrupt you. Librarians are a larger presence in the warp due to their power. However, they are trained to guard themselves against corruption, so it is a two way street. Because they are Librarians, they have a bigger presence in the warp, but because they are Librarians they know how to guard themselves. Think of it like this: Blanks (no warp signature) are standing on the beach - it is pretty impossible for them to drown in the sea. Normals (weak warp signature) are in the water but not too deep - they can drawn, and don't know how to swim, it is more likely that if they fall in they are going to drown. Librarians (strong warp signature) are in the deep water but know how to swim - they are more likely to be in a situation to drown but are less likely to drown. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Think of it like this: Blanks (no warp signature) are standing on the beach - it is pretty impossible for them to drown in the sea. Normals (weak warp signature) are in the water but not too deep - they can drawn, and don't know how to swim, it is more likely that if they fall in they are going to drown. Librarians (strong warp signature) are in the deep water but know how to swim - they are more likely to be in a situation to drown but are less likely to drown. Surprisingly eloquent/tame way of putting it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Zamiel Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 First of all, thanks for all the replies. The reason I think a Librarian-Chaplain would be cool, not necessarily smart , is that Chaplains are supposed to inspire the men under their care in battle, and what is more inspiring than running into battle even though at any point they not only have to deal with the bullets, explosions, and lasers flying all around they have to keep their cool and fight off any daemons or corruption that comes at them from the warp. So what I could see happening with my own chapter, The Roc Blades, is that there are these Librarian-Chaplains who not only watch over the men in battle from psychic powers and daemons they also look after them in a spiritual sense. But to make sure that they are always watched for possible corruption, they have a "second" which could either be another marine, who would be known for their pious ways and higher than average combat skill (think a company champion), or another Librarian in the same rank. I know this kind of just seems like a Librarian and a Chaplain but i like the idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think the actual discussion of topic is doable - however, like others have said it does leave the chapter open to problems. This happens whenever you combine two roles. A person doing two roles is unlikely to do both jobs equally well as two people doing one job. You also leave the chapter open to bad people, as one person holds twice as much power (like Vandire did). Like you said, cool but not smart. You could easily explain that the chapter does not believe in spirits, therefore have no spiritual healing required. A librarian can look at your secrets and help you deal with them - so science over faith almost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Zamiel Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 See I like the fact that it could lead to problems within the chapter. Namely that they could be seen as susceptible to corruption by other Imperial forces. As for the "one man can't do two mens job as well" factor, my chapter could over come this just by the fact that they have a high proportion of Librarians already... Do you think that these libby chaps would give a noticable flavor to a chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 zamiel, i really dont think it adds to the "flavor" of the chapter. it just would feel "different to be different" rather then unique. give them specific roles, fluff it out so they are still separate but important. look at my children of eternity in the liber, my librarians and chaplains have significant roles and there is definitely overlap but they are completely separate roles. they may serve inspiration because i thought of the same idea with them and realized it doesnt really add anything, in fact, it feels like a distraction Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It really does depend how much it is linked to other aspects of the chapter. If you just take the Ultramarines and combine to the two roles, it doesn't work. However, if you take techmarines and chaplains, combine them and put them in a chapter like the Iron Hands, it does work. A Librarian-Chaplain chapter would require certain flavours and aspects to it to make it work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2644438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Zamiel Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 zamiel, i really dont think it adds to the "flavor" of the chapter. it just would feel "different to be different" rather then unique. Hmm okay. Well I will keep trying to flesh out my idea and if it doesn't work so be it. And also the whole feeling of "different to be different" only happens when someone doesn't explain the reasons why their chapter does things. If i just put in my IA that my librarians are librarian-chaplains, it would be being "different to be different" but if there is a belief system behind it that makes sense for their particular chapter then I don't believe that any one should get that feeling. Or maybe I'm just a dreamer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2645019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 zamiel, i really dont think it adds to the "flavor" of the chapter. it just would feel "different to be different" rather then unique. Hmm okay. Well I will keep trying to flesh out my idea and if it doesn't work so be it. And also the whole feeling of "different to be different" only happens when someone doesn't explain the reasons why their chapter does things. If i just put in my IA that my librarians are librarian-chaplains, it would be being "different to be different" but if there is a belief system behind it that makes sense for their particular chapter then I don't believe that any one should get that feeling. Or maybe I'm just a dreamer. see what u can brainstorm and we can try and help u out. i dont want to be the negative downer lol. im just saying i cant see it working, doesnt mean it cant, i can be completely wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221344-a-question-on-librarians-and-chaplains/#findComment-2645027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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