Brovius Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I just got my GK thunderhawk all assembled and painted up (well, the main chassis at least) and got to use it in a 5000pt apocalypse match the weekend just gone. One problem I had immediately, was that there is no way I could position the Thunderhawk so that I could prevent my opponent from claiming rear-armour hits with his Land Speeder Tempest. His raionalisation is that the cross-section to work out armour facing includes the wings, but since the wings are towards the back of the model, that would make it so that the rear armour arc is far greater than the front armour. The dilemma: Do I factor in the wingspan for the purposes of working out the rear armour, or does it go by the hull alone? This made it so that a single <150pt Land Speeder brought down a >900pt Thunderhawk with great ease, due to being able to position it behind my Thunderhawk's wings, despite having it's rear facing the table edge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 If I remember correctly, you're always assumed to have shot at the 'front armour' of a flying vehicle due to the sheer speed at which it passes, unless in a hover. I hope he was only hitting you on 6's and subtracting 12"...unless he was just launching kraks at you the whole time. I haven't had my requisite amount of coffee yet, but I can't remember if simple missile launchers have the AA-mount stat, and if you still have to sub-12"/hit on sixes with them too. That's the one bad thing I've noticed about the Thunderhawk; it becomes a bullet magnet the moment it appears on the field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vor Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 If I remember correctly, you're always assumed to have shot at the 'front armour' of a flying vehicle due to the sheer speed at which it passes, unless in a hover. I hope he was only hitting you on 6's and subtracting 12"...unless he was just launching kraks at you the whole time. I haven't had my requisite amount of coffee yet, but I can't remember if simple missile launchers have the AA-mount stat, and if you still have to sub-12"/hit on sixes with them too. That's the one bad thing I've noticed about the Thunderhawk; it becomes a bullet magnet the moment it appears on the field. Think it's the side armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Like I said, rules nonwithstanding, I haven't had a lot of coffee. And I'm at work, so I can't go digging around in my giant Nerd Compendium. Google might be able to help in this case, but even still, side's better'n none. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brovius Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 If I remember correctly, you're always assumed to have shot at the 'front armour' of a flying vehicle due to the sheer speed at which it passes, unless in a hover. I hope he was only hitting you on 6's and subtracting 12"...unless he was just launching kraks at you the whole time. I haven't had my requisite amount of coffee yet, but I can't remember if simple missile launchers have the AA-mount stat, and if you still have to sub-12"/hit on sixes with them too. That's the one bad thing I've noticed about the Thunderhawk; it becomes a bullet magnet the moment it appears on the field. Yeah, the Tempest has the AA mount rule. Well, my opponent made the claim that both the Krak missiles and the Assault Cannon were AA weapons. Unfortunately, my lascannons were torn off too quockly, and due to my positioning/his hiding behind my wings, i couldn't retin flyer movement whilst letting loose my Psycannons into it. Effectively, I was stale-mated by a unit that is around 1/8th the cost of my Thunderhawk. It kinda sucked. I saw another thread where people were referencing a 4+ save for flyers, does this apply to the Thawk? In ny case, thanks for the help thus far! :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Pg.94, Apocalypse RB, Shooting at flyers : "When shooting at a flyer, all models need a 6 to score a hit, regardless of ballistic skill. In addition, when measuring the range to a flyer, all weapons must subtract 12" from the maximum range, to represent the elevation of a shot... ...All shots against flyers are treated the same as that of a Skimmer. Penetrating hits are automatically reduced to glancing hits." Pg.96, Apocalypse RB, Anti-Aircraft Mount : "These weapons are specifically designed to hit aircraft, using the normal ballistic skill to hit airborne targets, (usually shortened to AA mount)... ...Note that all weapons that are described as 'pintle mounted' are considered to have the AA ability." As a note to the above posts, you hit ont he armour facing the shooter like any vehicle, but Thunderhawks (and all flyers) hit on the side armour of any ground-bourne target due to their height, and ignore all but area terrain for cover. According to the IAvol.II rules, Land Speeder Tempests have no weapons considered to be pintle-mounted, or with the AA ability. Since the Thunderhawks MINIMUM movement per turn is 36 inches (unless you're hovering, in which case fore-shame), and the Tempest's is 12, there is no actual way for him to appear behind you unless he entered 'flyer mode', but then he wouldn't be able to shoot at you that turn either. Looks like your buddy was screwing you over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brovius Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 According to the IAvol.II rules, Land Speeder Tempests have no weapons considered to be pintle-mounted, or with the AA ability. Since the Thunderhawks MINIMUM movement per turn is 36 inches (unless you're hovering, in which case fore-shame), and the Tempest's is 12, there is no actual way for him to appear behind you unless he entered 'flyer mode', but then he wouldn't be able to shoot at you that turn either. Looks like your buddy was screwing you over. Waaait, so the Tempest can't fire any weapons if it moves as a flyer? And it's missiles aren't AA? So my Thunderhawk should have lived. I should start reading up on SM apocalypse units a bit more then Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Correct. Unless the missiles being used are anti-aircraft missiles (which the Tempest can't take, only standard frag and krak), or the module counts as AA, then he would have had to roll a whole lot of sixes. If he was flying to catch up to you, then they're focusing on not getting shot out of the sky, running into trees/buildings/flying mammals, and not able to appropriately aim to bring their weaponry to bear. Things like this always slip through the cracks though. As it was stated in the rules section, it's not up to your opponent to show you where he can do things, but up to you to show him where he can't. Always, always, -always- ask for the source of the information that you're getting. They should have it on hand and available for you to look over. If they don't, make a note of it and check up on it later. If it turns out to be true, well then there you go. If not? Point it out; sometimes they might not even know or simply be assuming. I always make sure that I have every bit of information on my units that I can; who knows? There might be some new updated FAQ that lets me do X instead of Y. Sometimes though, people are just deliberate douches trying to score a fast one on you. Quick Edit : After researching a little more, and finally getting pointed in the right direction on the Official Rules section to the FW updates download area, apparently the missile launcher *is* an AA mount, but ONLY the missile launcher. You'd still be subtracting 12 from the shot. And, as stated in that OR's thread, it's not necessarily 'flyer mode' as it is flat out. While he may be able to hit you at BS, there's no way he could keep up with you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 ...All shots against flyers are treated the same as that of a Skimmer. Penetrating hits are automatically reduced to glancing hits." As a aside note - this has been updated in all the most current IAs to the current skimmer rule that provides a Flat Out 4+ save instead of being reduced to a glancing hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Yeah I edited it and was looking at an older Apoc book that my friend had in his car. :D As a somewhat related note, this is the kind of problem that happens when you don't show updated information all the way across the board (e.g even if the landspeeder tempest isn't updated in later IA volumes, still show a short blurb about it's rules, etc etc). Apparently, (pointed out by GreyMage), in one IA update they get the afterburner (allowing them to move flat out), and in a previous one, they get the TL missile launcher as AA. But...not both at the same time. So sounds like the guy was either mixing the two together, assumed the effects were cumulative, or cherry picking the best of both worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Of Malfeasance X Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 That all being said, this is an excellent thought exercise for when someone comes after you with a real flyer, like a thunderbolt. Two thunderbolts with appropriate gear come in around 500 pts and could easily appear directly behind your hawk every single round. Consider moving the hawk from corner to corner so that the only facings available to anyone are front and side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221360-thunderhawks-working-out-rear-armour/#findComment-2644800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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