Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Alright, spurred by a question someone asked in the Ordos Inquisition section, since this is going to bug the hell out of me until I figure it out, and because I don't have access to my Nerd Compendium at home (and the firewall here at work sucks ^_^ ), I propose this scenario : A Thunderhawk Gunship being menaced by a Land Speeder Tempest, by it constantly coming around behind it and shooting at the 'rear armour'. After looking over a brief summary a friend gave me of the IAvol.II rules for the Tempest, I couldn't find anything in there to suggest that it has the 'AA' ability. I know that pintle-mounted weapons count, but what else? What other weapons or abilities (or even a rules update, since I haven't had time to dig) would give the Tempest the ability to shoot at it with straight BS instead of rollin' 6's at negative 12" to range. Second question : Hits on flyers are resolved where/how, if they're moving as intended with a flyer and not chilling in Hover? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 1. The Tempest's weapons are not AA for any reason at all, so no bonuses. When Flyers have AA weapons it specifically states it. 2. Hits are resolved as normal, against the AV facing the shooter. 3. A Tempest could not possibly do that to a Thunderhawk. The Thunderhawk's minimum move is 36". The Tempest's maximum move where it can shoot is 12". Sure, the Tempest can go into flyer mode each turn, but they can't shoot when they do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks, Seahawk, I thought something smelled fishy. When I get home I'll take a look at my library and complete the warm fuzzy this gave me. Been trying to bone up on the flyer rules myself for an up and coming game in the far future, so I figured I better find out for myself and get a clear picture before I have people trying to take pot-shots off at my precious T-hawk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 1. The Tempest's weapons are not AA for any reason at all, so no bonuses. When Flyers have AA weapons it specifically states it. 2. Hits are resolved as normal, against the AV facing the shooter. 3. A Tempest could not possibly do that to a Thunderhawk. The Thunderhawk's minimum move is 36". The Tempest's maximum move where it can shoot is 12". Sure, the Tempest can go into flyer mode each turn, but they can't shoot when they do so. The Tempest is not a Flyer, but a Fast Skimmer. It can not go into "Flyer mode", I believe you meant Flat Out. Now, the Tempest's TL Missile Launcher is AA-mounted, according to the Imperial Armor Vol. 2 Update from the Forge World website here. AA weapons do allow you to hit on your normal BS, but you still subtract the 12". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks, Seahawk, I thought something smelled fishy. When I get home I'll take a look at my library and complete the warm fuzzy this gave me. Been trying to bone up on the flyer rules myself for an up and coming game in the far future, so I figured I better find out for myself and get a clear picture before I have people trying to take pot-shots off at my precious T-hawk. And don't forget the 4+ save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 1. The Tempest's weapons are not AA for any reason at all, so no bonuses. When Flyers have AA weapons it specifically states it. 2. Hits are resolved as normal, against the AV facing the shooter. 3. A Tempest could not possibly do that to a Thunderhawk. The Thunderhawk's minimum move is 36". The Tempest's maximum move where it can shoot is 12". Sure, the Tempest can go into flyer mode each turn, but they can't shoot when they do so. The Tempest is not a Flyer, but a Fast Skimmer. It can not go into "Flyer mode", I believe you meant Flat Out. Now, the Tempest's TL Missile Launcher is AA-mounted, according to the Imperial Armor Vol. 2 Update from the Forge World website here. AA weapons do allow you to hit on your normal BS, but you still subtract the 12". Interesting- the rules for it in Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2 do not give it the AA property, but do give it the ability to 'Thruster burn' wich allows it to move as a flyer instead of shooting. Gets EA too.... So it comes down to wich document your group believes to take precedence. I usually play with the caveat that anything that has a datasheet follows that in apocalypse, but as time goes on this requires a bit of discussion. @ OP: Either way though, your opponent certainly has no justification to cherry pick the best of both rulessets. He can have the AA weapon, or the ability to chase after you, not both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks for the research and replies; I agree with that, GreyMage. Usually I just go with whatever is the latest release and updated information, and if someone shows me otherwise during the game, then I'm all for it. After talking it over with the fellow over in Ordos Inquisition, he was a little browbeat about the fact that this happened under the assumption that his opponent knew what he was talking about without researching it first to find out just where it said that he could give chase and declare it an AA mount (hell, his opponent was telling him the assault cannon was AA mounted too). Just another 'goes to show you' moment that better understandings of the rules is necessary for the stuff you take, and to be able to provide information/documentation to back it up! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2644759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturm Moonwolf Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 My book (IAA2, pg29) says right in the weapon descriptions AA mount for the missile launchers. Imperial Armour 2 Update version 1.3 same thing, AA mounted missile launchers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2654890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Oh are you fething kidding me? O.o I've been bustin' my ass trying to find someone to part buy a whirlwind with me so I can take the turret and make it hyperios, and now I'm halfway through scratchbuilding one, and you tell me the land speeders that I was going to buy but didn't because I needed AA, is actually AA? *boom* More importantly, can this be represented by a standard Typhoon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2655287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It depends on what book you use. The IA2 update says they're AA (but it can't go fast), and the IA Apoc book says no AA, but can move as a flyer. Usually you must use the most current rules set for a given unit; in this case it's the IA Apoc rules (no AA, can move as flyer but can't shoot), unless you're willing to let opponents use the old Chaos codex, or Craftworld Eldar codex, etc.. While you can do it with a standard landspeeder typhoon, it's like using a GW drop pod as the FW Lucius drop pod (which is a no-go). It's not the right model, or crew count or anything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2655504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I was under the impression the update only updated the things that needed it, so you still need to buy the book? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2655643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturm Moonwolf Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2 doesn't say it's a flyer, but can move up to 36" with a thruster burn and is treated as a flyer for that turn but it can't shoot. And it DOES say the missile launchers are AA mounted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2655713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Oh shoot, I take back my no AA. I have been looking at the armament, not the statline, which does say AA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2656043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 So I just need a typhoon, and seal the cockpit. Anmd I get AA goodness, can they be put into sqaudrons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2656103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturm Moonwolf Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I was under the impression the update only updated the things that needed it, so you still need to buy the book? Always helps to have the book, Imperial Armour books don't misprint or loophole as often as GW :nuke:. They just update as GW changes rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2656207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I meant they deliberately wouldn't provide all the information in the update so you would still have to buy it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221370-flyers-and-shooting/#findComment-2656287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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