A Final Stand

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I have a few ideas rumbling around my head to make a Chapter similar to the Space Wolves, with that barbaric undertone and unique style of organisation, but obviously the Sons of Russ have "Viking" pretty much covered. Similarly, I'm loath to use "Saxons" as I have no idea how far GHY will be going with his Blazing Sons in Saxonifying them (Look Ma' a new word!)... I've looked at cultures like the Dacians and various Germanic peoples but so far nothing sticks out particularly.

 

Concrete Ideas that will be included:

 

Warbands, each a self-sustaining unit.

 

The "Life Chain" as a core of beliefs, with chains featuring as a core element of inconography and ritual/ceremony - perhaps even something similar to the Maesters Chain.

 

As "squires" they sever a chain to mark the end of an old life, the same when they become full Battle-Brothers and each Brother forges his own life chain, upon his death this is severed and placed in a great hall to honour the fallen.

 

Axe and Spear are basic weapons - the sword is a symbol of leadership or skill, which is reflected in the way brothers are armed.

 

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls. To build on this, this could even be extended for the right to pick the best "squires".

 

A "hive" concept: each entity - band/company - is seperate and autonomous until the Chapter is threatened or an action requires multiple forces.

 

Veteran Scouts - I see them as the soldiers of the Chapter, where the "normal" Brothers are warriors.

 

Up for reinterpretation:

 

Recruitment Bands - the Chapter lays claim to recruitment rights on many worlds, they have bands travelling a circuit of these worlds to keep the Chapter to full strength. I still really like this idea, but I'm leaning towards altering it's form.

 

Kytons are D&D chain demons. Jangling Hyter is the city they live in.

 

- Kyton are the beings that cut the life chains of Man, in the native mythology. Hyter being the place where.. *mumble mumble* are taken?

 

Here *mumble mumble* means an unformed idea.

 

 

I fully accept that this will be a slow process; these thoughts are not fully formed and could change at a moments notice/better idea... Any input would be appreciated, as always, but I can understand why some may not wish to :)

[Marshal Renatus]

Warbands instead of Companies - perhaps even smaller than a standard Company - with everything being integral to the Band; Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries are all considered part of a band.

Although the "High Chief" - for lack of a better term - could have a larger band to signify status.

Maybe even have differing band sizes, no set structure, meaning that a defeated Chief could lose warriors to a successful one?

Warband = different word for clan company or crusade. This smacks of pilferage from the SW and BT. Also, I don't know that the High Lords would appreciate a chapter fighting amongst itself for resources. Almost everybody uses some form of the Codex. The big two that don't are the BT and SW, so if you go down this path it will be difficult to not draw comparisons.

 

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls.

Me likey. More like this please. Make the Captains duel, then they select the Battle-Brothers they want for their mission. Almost like picking stickball teams, lol. This lends to all sorts of good stuff like how those always picked last feel, if one dominant captain is almost destabilizing the chapter, and what happens when Captain Thunderbunny has to lead the Goof Troop of leftovers into a battle.

 

I liked the whole Beserker concept

I like this less. I very this all as being very ceremonial, ordered, and highly solemn when they duel for privilege of battle and leadership. Making them vaingloriously battle happy just seems like overload. They can prefer close-combat, but they don't have to foam at the mouth like the Space Puppies and Red-Armored Vampires.

 

Liking the concept of void war, but making the a world of pirates wouldn't fit as much I'd like - unless on the planet each warband is derived originally from an area? "Warband X" was once comprised of recruits from a region of seafarers and so favour ship-to-ship action?

Maybe they recruit only the void-born? That explains why they need the recruiting forces out there...highly constrained pool of recruits. Additionally, base them in space. Maybe they've claimed a long forgotten orbital defense platform/half-destroyed star fort/space hulk that orbits a dead world? The better to stay away from prying eyes and be allowed to conduct business as you wish.

 

 

All in all, I think there is certainly potential. Look forward to seeing more of the concept fleshed out.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Warbands instead of Companies - perhaps even smaller than a standard Company - with everything being integral to the Band; Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries are all considered part of a band.

Although the "High Chief" - for lack of a better term - could have a larger band to signify status.

Maybe even have differing band sizes, no set structure, meaning that a defeated Chief could lose warriors to a successful one?

Warband = different word for clan company or crusade. This smacks of pilferage from the SW and BT. Also, I don't know that the High Lords would appreciate a chapter fighting amongst itself for resources. Almost everybody uses some form of the Codex. The big two that don't are the BT and SW, so if you go down this path it will be difficult to not draw comparisons.

 

- The HLoT have more than enough to deal with than caring about the internal structure of a single Chapter.

 

Actually, it isn't pilferage from theSW or BT... It's pilferage from history; mighty warriors led bands of men to war, thus war bands and this is something I wanted to drawn into the Chapter from whatever culture I use because I like the idea.

 

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls.

Me likey. More like this please. Make the Captains duel, then they select the Battle-Brothers they want for their mission. Almost like picking stickball teams, lol. This lends to all sorts of good stuff like how those always picked last feel, if one dominant captain is almost destabilizing the chapter, and what happens when Captain Thunderbunny has to lead the Goof Troop of leftovers into a battle.

 

I saw it tying in with the warband idea - Bands A, B, F and T are at the Fortress when a call comes in and each sends a Champion to fight for their right to.. er.. fight.

 

I liked the whole Beserker concept

I like this less. I very this all as being very ceremonial, ordered, and highly solemn when they duel for privilege of battle and leadership. Making them vaingloriously battle happy just seems like overload. They can prefer close-combat, but they don't have to foam at the mouth like the Space Puppies and Red-Armored Vampires.

 

- This was just an after thought of "If the were from the Blood Angels..", never really seriously considered.

 

Liking the concept of void war, but making the a world of pirates wouldn't fit as much I'd like - unless on the planet each warband is derived originally from an area? "Warband X" was once comprised of recruits from a region of seafarers and so favour ship-to-ship action?

Maybe they recruit only the void-born? That explains why they need the recruiting forces out there...highly constrained pool of recruits. Additionally, base them in space. Maybe they've claimed a long forgotten orbital defense platform/half-destroyed star fort/space hulk that orbits a dead world? The better to stay away from prying eyes and be allowed to conduct business as you wish.

 

Trouble is that they recruit children.. What advantages does recruiting a pale 10 year old really give? :P

 

All in all, I think there is certainly potential. Look forward to seeing more of the concept fleshed out.

 

Cheers :)

 

To be honest there is no current centralising theme to the Chapter but that is something to consider when I discover all the elements I like and wish to try to include.

 

 

On another note:

 

I do also like the idea of each warband being drawn from a certain area and bringing with it a predeliction for a certain style of combat - seafarers = ship-to-ship, riders = bikes... - but this might be needlessly complicated.

[Allfather1]

Warbands instead of Companies - perhaps even smaller than a standard Company - with everything being integral to the Band; Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries are all considered part of a band.

Although the "High Chief" - for lack of a better term - could have a larger band to signify status.

Maybe even have differing band sizes, no set structure, meaning that a defeated Chief could lose warriors to a successful one?

May I suggest a more ordered formation.

They have reserve companies as the codex dictates, here marines wil undergo their training.

The battle-captains will select their battle-brothers from all the marines that have advanced beyond the reserve companies, additonaly marines may choose to duel the battle-captains or their champions when they do not wish to serve under him. If they win these marines earn the right to choose which battle-captain they serve.

 

Blantant theft and redressing of the Life Thread concept from both Viking and later religion - this will involve chains.

I think theft doesn't suit a chapter of the Adaptus Astartes, but I could see marines dueling over the right to hold older marks of armour/weapons.

 

Axe and Spear are basic weapons - the sword is a symbol of leadership or skill, which is reflected in the way brothers are armed.

Nothing wrong here. Veterans could be awarded a sword in additon to the crux terminatus.

 

Recruitment Bands - the Chapter lays claim to recruitment rights on many worlds, they have bands travelling a circuit of these worlds to keep the Chapter to full strength.

If you go with my idea you could use the reserve companies for this.

 

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls.

Battle-captains could hold test to determine which brother to choose.

I still like the veteran Scouts idea, but not sure how this fits with the others.

Just do it the space wolves way. Some marines prefer to work alone or are stealthy by nature. You could have them being a seperate company or have them being part of the chaptermaster's company.

 

Liking the concept of void war, but making the a world of pirates wouldn't fit as much I'd like - unless on the planet each warband is derived originally from an area? "Warband X" was once comprised of recruits from a region of seafarers and so favour ship-to-ship action?

You could have a battle-captain being voidborn who has a natural talent for void warfare, he chooses marines that suit this and attracts likeminded champions, one of this becomes captain and eventually battle-captain and the cycle starts anew. By luck or skill these battle-captains survive and each train another etc. So over a few millenia you could have a chapter specialized in void war.

Or the reserve companies become skilled in it as they travel from recruiting world to recruiting world.

[Ferrata]

I do also like the idea of each warband being drawn from a certain area and bringing with it a predeliction for a certain style of combat - seafarers = ship-to-ship, riders = bikes... - but this might be needlessly complicated.

This is a common misconception that due to your civilisation being something, then that must translate over into being an Astartes. A Space Marine will train on countless different worlds in all sorts of terrain, and become so far removed from the young boy he was that those ten years sailing the high seas don't really count for that much.

 

I like the idea of fragmented chapter that sees itself as more as 10 individual forces than one whole - bar when an outside force threatens them...

[Donkey Kong]

Warbands instead of Companies - perhaps even smaller than a standard Company - with everything being integral to the Band; Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries are all considered part of a band.

Although the "High Chief" - for lack of a better term - could have a larger band to signify status.

Maybe even have differing band sizes, no set structure, meaning that a defeated Chief could lose warriors to a successful one?

 

Would "High Chief" be Chapter Master? Would there even be a Chapter Master or just a council of Captains? And what stops any one truly great commander from uniting his Chapter as a single warband, and after that what would break it up again?

 

Blantant theft and redressing of the Life Thread concept from both Viking and later religion - this will involve chains.

 

Me no understand Latino Captain Man.

 

I saw it tying in with the warband idea - Bands A, B, F and T are at the Fortress when a call comes in and each sends a Champion to fight for their right to.. er.. fight.

 

The trouble with this is that I don't imagine Space Marines sitting around in a fortress ... ever. The only R+R space marines may really have is that downtime in transit between point A to point B to kill more things, and even then they're training to kill more things anyway. Plus, if they're fleet based, with Black Templar like keeps why are multiple companies in a single keep?

 

I do also like the idea of each warband being drawn from a certain area and bringing with it a predeliction for a certain style of combat - seafarers = ship-to-ship, riders = bikes... - but this might be needlessly complicated.

 

Quite.

 

Space Marines are Space Marines. Primitive tribal folk are primitive tribal folk. Being good seafarers doesn't make good space ship captain, and being a good equestrian does not make a good bike rider, especially considering they're recruiting from children populations.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think some ideas have been misconstrued ;)

 

The "thread" of someones life is to do with the Fates, the spinners, et cetera but I'm going to replace this with chain inconography; this now means that the IT Unchained will b e butchered for its name for another use :P

 

Allfather I was actually thinking that the Sword could be the Crux.

 

 

Ferrata sometimes something holds over though, but I could even make it due to the whimsy of the Chief of each band.

 

Also, that premise was one of the ones I wanted to explore, hence the rivalry for answering distress calls.

 

 

In terms of new recruits I had thought of a Templar style squiring systems - each band is 80 Astartes, with 20 new recruits to shine the shoes and make the tea and in return they get taught the battle skills they need. This means that each band has a handful of ready made replcaements.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Never said they'd be fleet based.

 

Originally I had pictured bands of around fifty Astartes, so you get many more smaller forces and so you'd be more likely to have more than one at the Fortress.

 

Each band is led by a mighty warrior, so I imagined the mightiest being the Chapter Master.. But I could make it so that "Chapter Master" is only a term used when the force is unified in war. During peace the council governs the Chapter, during war a single unified voice is needed.

 

I do also like the idea of each warband being drawn from a certain area and bringing with it a predeliction for a certain style of combat - seafarers = ship-to-ship, riders = bikes... - but this might be needlessly complicated.

 

Maybe the above was a bad idea, but that is all this is.. About gathering ideas. Bsides which, I like the central premise even if the execution sucks.

[The Shiny One]

I only read your first post, but it screams White Scars all over for me... not copied but as the perfect geneseed, for all of your ideas.

And maybe look up Hells Angels or other biker gangs organization. They are one chapter but have different branches (warbands).

 

Just some Ideas though...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To be honest I'd not given geneseed any real thought, but yeah.. the Great Khan's would work well if seeming a tad obvious but hey, who wants another Chapter of Dorn or Guilliman!? :)

[Plague Angel]

Being mindful of this:

 

I'm tired of people giving C&C trying to make someone else's vision into their vision.

 

Right now what you have seems pretty malleable and undefined, so I don't want to comment on it too much and wind up over-influencing. Though I will say that the name "Imperial Reavers" could work for this, depending on where you take it.

 

To be honest I'd not given geneseed any real thought, but yeah.. the Great Khan's would work well if seeming a tad obvious but hey, who wants another Chapter of Dorn or Guilliman!? :P

 

I do! I still say, that it strains disbelief less to have a Guilliman chapter. Anything but Guilliman is supposed to be an exception. It's great to be a fan of a Primarch or have a theme you want to go with — it's great seeing successors for every Legion. Or if one wants to focus on a new mutation or new spin on the other Legion's mutations, that's great! But when the gene-seed isn't part of the theme, and is more or less tertiary such as it is here ("To be honest I'd not given geneseed any real thought") one should default to Guilliman, simply because that's how the setting works.

[Ferrata]

There level of gene-seed use does alter according to different sources - but they all agree that Guilliman is the most used. My theory is "Unless the gene-seed is adding something to the chapter, go Guilliman."

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Being mindful of this:

 

I'm tired of people giving C&C trying to make someone else's vision into their vision.

 

Right now what you have seems pretty malleable and undefined, so I don't want to comment on it too much and wind up over-influencing. Though I will say that the name "Imperial Reavers" could work for this, depending on where you take it.

 

- Comment away, Ive reached the point where my vision is my vision - note the parts I've mentioned that I won't be removing, for example.

 

I'm all for more input, as long as it leaves Grammar at the door.

 

To be honest I'd not given geneseed any real thought, but yeah.. the Great Khan's would work well if seeming a tad obvious but hey, who wants another Chapter of Dorn or Guilliman!? :P

 

I do! I still say, that it strains disbelief less to have a Guilliman chapter. Anything but Guilliman is supposed to be an exception. It's great to be a fan of a Primarch or have a theme you want to go with — it's great seeing successors for every Legion. Or if one wants to focus on a new mutation or new spin on the other Legion's mutations, that's great! But when the gene-seed isn't part of the theme, and is more or less tertiary such as it is here ("To be honest I'd not given geneseed any real thought") one should default to Guilliman, simply because that's how the setting works.

 

 

There level of gene-seed use does alter according to different sources - but they all agree that Guilliman is the most used. My theory is "Unless the gene-seed is adding something to the chapter, go Guilliman."

 

To be honest, the reason I hadnt thought of geneseed is literally because this isn't even past the "Let me think of all the weird and wonderful ideas I want to include.." stage, but I will explain why White Scars makes sense to me:

 

Tribal cultures - which is the way I'm going to get the unique organisation I feel.

Unique way of doing things - bikes, even if they have the full range of options available.

Certain amount of bloodlust inherent in the geneseed - helps emphasise the close combat-orientation of the Chapter.

[The Shiny One]

To be honest, the reason I hadnt thought of geneseed is literally because this isn't even past the "Let me think of all the weird and wonderful ideas I want to include.." stage, but I will explain why White Scars makes sense to me:

 

Tribal cultures - which is the way I'm going to get the unique organisation I feel.

Unique way of doing things - bikes, even if they have the full range of options available.

Certain amount of bloodlust inherent in the geneseed - helps emphasise the close combat-orientation of the Chapter.

 

Yeah, that what I thought! By taking White Scars you just safe a little bit of time and writing to explain why they developed this way, it just seems quite natural with White Scars combined with the homeworld you pick.

[Octavulg]

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls.

 

Might be worth reading up on Battletech's Clans a little. There might be some good things to draw upon in that.

[Plague Angel]

Up for reinterpretation:

 

Recruitment Bands - the Chapter lays claim to recruitment rights on many worlds, they have bands travelling a circuit of these worlds to keep the Chapter to full strength.

 

I still like the veteran Scouts idea, but not sure how this fits with the others.

 

You could combine these two: make Veteran Scouts the sort of pilot fish for the recruitment drives, scouting out areas ahead of time and sending word to the Captains where the good possibilities are.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To be honest, the reason I hadnt thought of geneseed is literally because this isn't even past the "Let me think of all the weird and wonderful ideas I want to include.." stage, but I will explain why White Scars makes sense to me:

 

Tribal cultures - which is the way I'm going to get the unique organisation I feel.

Unique way of doing things - bikes, even if they have the full range of options available.

Certain amount of bloodlust inherent in the geneseed - helps emphasise the close combat-orientation of the Chapter.

 

Yeah, that what I thought! By taking White Scars you just safe a little bit of time and writing to explain why they developed this way, it just seems quite natural with White Scars combined with the homeworld you pick.

 

*thumbs up here*

 

I imagine I would have got there in the end, but it avoids the internal "I don't want this, this or this because everyone does them.." argument.

 

Intra-Chapter competition - Warbands vie for the right to answer a call for help; brothers duelling to demand the right to answer these calls.

 

Might be worth reading up on Battletech's Clans a little. There might be some good things to draw upon in that.

 

I'm pretty much totally unfamiliar with the universe as it goes.. Mainly because all the background books are unavailable/overpriced on Ebay.

 

Any links to pertinent, reliable, data?

 

 

Up for reinterpretation:

 

Recruitment Bands - the Chapter lays claim to recruitment rights on many worlds, they have bands travelling a circuit of these worlds to keep the Chapter to full strength.

 

I still like the veteran Scouts idea, but not sure how this fits with the others.

 

You could combine these two: make Veteran Scouts the sort of pilot fish for the recruitment drives, scouting out areas ahead of time and sending word to the Captains where the good possibilities are.

 

I actually saw it more as some recruits not displaying the general lust for combat, in this case that Khans geneseed doesn't quite "mesh" so some of that bloodthirsty nature is lost.. This means that they are not quite as accepted by their brothers.

[Octavulg]

I'm pretty much totally unfamiliar with the universe as it goes.. Mainly because all the background books are unavailable/overpriced on Ebay.

 

Any links to pertinent, reliable, data?

 

Well, short of digging up Mechwarrior 2 and using the in-game documentation (which is pretty extensive, and taken directly from sourcebooks), not really.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm pretty much totally unfamiliar with the universe as it goes.. Mainly because all the background books are unavailable/overpriced on Ebay.

 

Any links to pertinent, reliable, data?

 

Well, short of digging up Mechwarrior 2 and using the in-game documentation (which is pretty extensive, and taken directly from sourcebooks), not really.

 

Helpful :cuss

 

 

 

Further ideas:

 

Each Warband lives amongst a settlement, almost in the same way as the Salamanders but more in the sense of an overlord who's gaze must be avoided.

 

Beliefs - as mentioned the idea of the Life Chain; links are cast and decided by the fates, when the chain is severed that is your alloted time.

I like the idea of calling Dreadnaughts "the Unchained".. Dead, but not - their life chaines were severed, but they still survive.

[Heru]

There is always the wikia. Don't know how useful that is, as I'm not Mechwarrior fluent either.

[Marshal Renatus]

It's Wiki, but it's a start. BattleTech

[Octavulg]

The dedicated Battletech wiki is, in a word, crap. Sad, but true.

 

I'm sensing that the chapter may end up themed around chains a bit. Lots of room to muck about in that, I think.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The dedicated Battletech wiki is, in a word, crap. Sad, but true.

 

I'm sensing that the chapter may end up themed around chains a bit. Lots of room to muck about in that, I think.

 

But your Batman, you don't have a special sense...?

 

Either way, I hope you're wrong.. 'cause theming around chains seems quite hard off-hand!

 

 

Like I said, there is no coherency so far.. Just a case of examining what I like and will fit in light of the universe and seeing what glue will guide it all together.

 

I'd be wary of chains as a central theme though, because of the whole BT thing but on another Chapter-related note:

 

In the Iron Snakes book, when the squads form to fight the Orks that's kind of how I imagine the warbands acting but alot less central coherency.

[Octavulg]

Not literal chains (necessarily). But there's a lot to work with with chains. They imprison. They hold things together. They're big and heavy. They're strong, but brittle. And, as you mention, there's the whole life thread. Plus the idea of the great chain of being (a place to everyone, and everyone in their place).

 

As I understand it, when the squads in the IS books fight the Orks, they should be slaughtered and are saved through bad writing.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Not literal chains (necessarily). But there's a lot to work with with chains. They imprison. They hold things together. They're big and heavy. They're strong, but brittle. And, as you mention, there's the whole life thread. Plus the idea of the great chain of being (a place to everyone, and everyone in their place).

 

As I understand it, when the squads in the IS books fight the Orks, they should be slaughtered and are saved through bad writing.

 

Aye, but I wouldn't want to overload on chains; I'd end up going mental and having them fight in PA made of chains welded together.

 

Bad writing aside*, its more the imagery I'm trying to get at.. The shield wall, the charge and dismemberment of a broken foe.

 

 

*Orks are Green Astartes.. The book makes them, for the most part, about as dangerous as a kitten. A dead kitten.

[Octavulg]

There's a reason we don't do shield walls any more (though we still do charges, amusingly). Bunching up gets you killed by explodies.

 

They don't necessarily have to be literal chains, remember. :devil: