"All comers" Tactical Squad

[Shadowstalker Grim]

There is obviously no 'correct' way to arm the tactical squad, I suppose it depends largely at their job in hand and the enemies you face. But lets take a step back from that, if you were composing an army and wanted your tacticals to be both as lethal as possible and as flexible as possible, what would you choose?

 

Obviously a squad that is armed with a Flamer/Missile Launcher/Rhino combination is a cheap, easy to access and reliable source of multi-purpose firepower

 

A squad armed with a Combi-Plasma/Powerfist/Plasmagun/Plasmacannon/Rhino is a lot more expensive, but a lot more focussed and harder hitting

 

 

Out of the two examples above though only the top one is worth combat squadding, so from a comparative viewpoint it makes sense to keep our squads cheap but diverse (since diversity is easily acheived with our tactical squads and making a squad that cannot use combat tactics effectively severs one of their options)

 

Do we focus regardless of price, or is flexibility more approrpiate (keeping in mind the squad is hardly a top threat as it is!)

 

Discuss...

[DerekLee688]

For me, focus is the cheaper option and flexibility is the expensive one. Powerfist, plasma gun, and Lascannon are the most diversive choices and are the most expensive. Flamer, plasma cannon, and ML are the cheapest and happen to all be effective against infantry.

 

Generaly I let my tacticals be my core anti-personnel because AT is better/more flexable elsewhere.

 

On a side note, if I had a rhino tac squad with plasma cannon and a squad deep strikes 18" away, can I combat squad then have half disembark and fire+assult while the PC fires from the top hatch?

[DarkGuard]

For me, focus is the cheaper option and flexibility is the expensive one. Powerfist, plasma gun, and Lascannon are the most diversive choices and are the most expensive. Flamer, plasma cannon, and ML are the cheapest and happen to all be effective against infantry.

 

Generaly I let my tacticals be my core anti-personnel because AT is better/more flexable elsewhere.

 

On a side note, if I had a rhino tac squad with plasma cannon and a squad deep strikes 18" away, can I combat squad then have half disembark and fire+assult while the PC fires from the top hatch?

 

Afraid not, combat squadding is done when you deploy the unit, so at the start of the game (and when coming on from reserve some people would argue). In that situation we're talking about at least Turn 2, so no you won't be able to do that.

 

On the subject of squads, I like Myst's plasma squad, and I might use it tomorrow, will let people know how that works out.

[DerekLee688]

Rats, I've been torn wether to shoot the cannon at the perfectly clumped squad and risk missing the whole thing or moving up and shoot the entire squad. Now that I run two flame templates, it isn't such a bad thing to lose the cannon shot in a deep strike senario.

[Xeonic]

For me, I often combat squad my plasma cannons in objective games so the bolters attached rarely get fired anyways because they could potentially *reduce* the number of casualties the squad is taking due to wound allocation. I had a Necron lord VoD onto one of my objectives awhile back with 10 warriors and they took a direct plasma template-leading to a sad Necron player(risky shot within 6" of the 'cannon in my own deployment zone too). Even if you don't fire with a full strength squad, it's all of 5pts being wasted for one turn, not a major loss IMO.

[DarkGuard]

Well yesterday I got to use Myst's double plasma squad, in a 1750pt game. As we all know Tacticals are mainly support units, so in this instance they were supporting my quad plasma Command squad, my Vindicators, with some Typhoons, Rifleman Dreads and a Libby with Null Zone thrown into the mix. First impressions of the squad is that they did well. I was up against a foot slogging Chaos army, and the ability to rapid fire two plasma guns came in handy when his Daemon Prince Deep Striked behind my lines. My Command squad knocked off three wounds and the Tactical squad took the last one. The other squad helped secure the other objective, although I didn't get to rapid fire both guns due to circumstances but they were in a prime position to finish off the Emperor's Children unit and would have done.

 

Overall, I'm pretty impressed, and feel they could be of use later. I've always liked plasma guns, but recently I've used flamers for a couple of reasons, they are assault meaning I can get the charge if need be, the combi-flamer won't miss, and you easily score a large amount of hits which destroys infantry and can even stop Marines. Plus they're cheaper, and with a large influx of Xenos and Guardsman armies at my LGS it seemed the best option. However, Chaos and Blood Angels are still prevalent, and in this respect plasma weapons are handy. They are also better against tanks, with those strength 7 shots adding to them. I feel that if I have the points, and I'm using a Libby with Null Zone then they would be preferable to the double flamer combo. If I was using any other HQ I'd probably stick with double flamer, especially if I'm using Vulkan.

[Mysticaria]

Glad the squad worked out. I like it because it gets a little extra low AP into the list and can surprise some people, while not being overly expensive.

 

-Myst

[autarch]

I use either:

 

Tactical squad x10 with Plasma-gun, Combi-plasma and Multi-melta in Rhino - 225

or

Tactical squad x10 with Melta-gun, Combi-melta and Plasma Cannon in Rhino - 225

 

I've stopped bothering with any sort of power weapon to focus on what tacticals are decent at - shooting.

 

I like the first squad because I can set up a dangerous zone within 24 inches, and if things get into 12 inch range they have to eat at least 4 plasma shots.

 

I like the second squad because it has more mobility with it's melta shots, and because there isn't an army out there (except Dark Angels Deathwing) that doesn't fear Plasma Cannons. They can be hit and miss at times, but a single good shot from a plasma cannon against elite units has swung entire games for me before.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I like the idea of combi-melta, melta, plasmacannon a lot, though i find the combi-plasma, plasma, multi-melta interesting.

 

The 2x Plasma, Multi-Melta vs 2 flamer, Multi-melta

 

 

Both squads are dual purpose, both focus in the shorter range bracket. The flamers tend to hit weaker more numerous troops, the plasma hits tougher troops which compliments the multi-melta in target, although the multi-melta is mainly a vehicle buster.

 

Way I see it though is that the 2 squads are more or less equal, it seems that one costs more and threatens itself more though...

[autarch]

That depends on your opponent, Shadowstalker.

 

I play vs Chaos more than any other opponent, so plasma is almost always better than flamers for me. Even against Tyranids I like Plasma because of it's effect vs monstrous creatures. I can handle a small horde getting to me with bolters. I can't handle monstrous creatures getting to me. Monstrous creatures put a fresh coat of Space Marine Textured Paint on everything around when they get into close combat.

[DarkGuard]

I like the idea of combi-melta, melta, plasmacannon a lot, though i find the combi-plasma, plasma, multi-melta interesting.

 

The 2x Plasma, Multi-Melta vs 2 flamer, Multi-melta

 

 

Both squads are dual purpose, both focus in the shorter range bracket. The flamers tend to hit weaker more numerous troops, the plasma hits tougher troops which compliments the multi-melta in target, although the multi-melta is mainly a vehicle buster.

 

Way I see it though is that the 2 squads are more or less equal, it seems that one costs more and threatens itself more though...

 

I used to think quite a lot like that, in the idea that the flamer can cause as much damage as a plasma gun. But then we need to factor in saves strength and opponent. Against horde armies that dual flamer is undeniably better. Against MEQ, plasma just beats it IMO. Say you hit 6 guys with a well placed flamer template, we can look at 3 wounds, and one dead Marine. Say you fired the plasma gun, I'd say between 1 and 2 hits (BS4 is a little iffy for two shots), and all hits will probably wound. So it's about equal. However, for dual flamer it's quite easily 2 guys dead, for plasma I'd say 3 should hit, so we're looking again at one more dead guy.

 

Doesn't sound like much, but in my experience people tend to save a lot of hits from flamers, but so much from plasma (well they can't). Plus, plasma is more flexible, it can threaten MCs, tanks and Terminators a lot more than a flamer can, and has much better synergy with MMs. The way I'm looking at it, if I've got the points and/or Null zone, dual plasma is worth a look in. If I haven't got the points or have Vulkan, I'd go flamers. I like both weapons, it just comes down to situation.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I don't disagree in any way that plasma works much better than flamers against tougher foes, i agree completely! In that tactical squad though I would of thought that a dual flamer template might well make up some kills from sheer mass of wounds.

 

I actually really like the plasma, MM combo, it seems quite funky! I guess it really comes down to which enemies you fight, but in an all comers environment, which would you pick as the special, flamer or plasma?

 

 

Overall the Multi-Melta seems to be THE heavy weapon of choice in the tactical squad, which isn't surprising, a free tank busting weapon.

[BloodWulf]

Wow. Here I thought I was all good to go with a Tactical squad armed with an ML, Flamer and Sgt with a PW and now I am re thinking everything!

 

My plan for this squad is probably along the lines of getting to a good objective or a spot with good fields of fire and parking and shooting prime targets. The PW was just as a tool for the inevitable charge into them, but I want a strong couter attack elemnt to discourage this.

 

From what I am reading (and since most of my friends play Marines and Necrons) I am thinking I may need to add some plasma to my Tacticals.

 

Looks like I will try plasmagun, multimelta, combiplasma, rhino to add some supre heated energy love to my army.

[DarkGuard]

As a rule of thumb power weapons are generally not very good. Lightning claws are better and the same points cost, re-rolling all failed wounds in exchange for one attack is worth it. Unfortunately Tactical Marines can't take lightning claws, although they shouldn't have any combat weapon anyway. They are close range fire support. You could get them a power fist, but I find it to be a waste of points. For the stuff that they are actually good at assaulting it's overkill. For the stuff you don't want assaulting and therefore it might act as a deterrent, it doesn't really help them. Hammernators and MCs aren't really going to worry too much about a power fist. The only thing it might be handy against are ICs, but a clever opponent will avoid that power fist.

 

Plasma gun, combi-plas and multi-melta in a Rhino is a solid build. For my money I prefer the combi-flamer, flamer variant. 10pts cheaper and can still put a lot of wounds on people, especially with Vulkan, so if I want to be mean it's an easy fix to my list.

 

Plasma gun, combi-plas works well against elite infantry, MCs and light vehicles. It has a narrow range but does that very well, so any mech lists, Nizilla lists and Marine lists in general for hate you for it :).

 

Best of luck.

[WimvH]

Hmmm, I go dirt cheap... Melta, Heavy Bolter, Melta Bombs and Rhino...

 

The reasoning is that I take on infantry with them. The melta means I might even pull of a charge againsty a weak CC opponent as a melta is an assault weapon. HB can take on light vehicles (I can even stun, shake, immobilise and shoot weapons off of Rhinos and Razorbacks). The Melta Bombs can be real nasty against any armour.

 

Rhino provides mobility and ablative armour. Too good not to take.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

How does the heavy bolter do in tactical squads? I usually compare it to the missile launcher, but to be fair it fills a role by itself. Is it a worthwhile addition to tactical squads, because its often shunned...

[Vincent Black Shadow]

I personally am not a big fan of blast template weapons. Every time I have run a plasma cannon or tried to frag with a missile launcher, it has gone off target and hit nothing more often than it did any damage. All you have to do to counter PCs and to a lesser extend flamers is to have your models set up a bit beyond 1.5" apart. That way the blast template can only ever cover one model intentionally. I'm taking MMs more and more.

 

Heavy bolter is great against light infantry, mediocre against MEQ, and useless against anything else. The thing is, bolters are also deadly against light infantry, and all of the other heavy weapons available are better against everything else. So taking a HB means you are marginally better at mowing down hordes while being quite a bit less effective at lending support against anything else.

[DarkGuard]

Or you could look at it the other way around. Your boltguns are already good at mowing down light-infantry, and therefore the heavy bolter helps you with that roll, meaning you are always using your boltguns and full utility of the squad. It comes down to whether you prefer maximizing your potential against their primary target, or giving them weapons to help them with other targets. However, if you want to do anti-infantry with a Tactical squad you're better off taking a plasma cannon if you have the 5pts. It expands your anti-infantry to include heavy infantry, making them even more dangerous, while having the same range.

 

The other weapons, especially the free ones expands the Tactical squad's role, making them more, well tactical. This is perhaps why the heavy bolter isn't used much, as the plasma cannon is better and the other weapons give them more flexibility. That's not to say it's bad, just not as useful to Tactical Marines. On the other hand, if you asked me about heavy bolters and Dev squads, I'd say they're one of the better weapons to give them. Cheap, and amazing en masse against any type of infantry. Sure, MEQ get armour saves, but they won't be able to make all of them.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

What about adding them to sternguard squads to increase the anti-infantry power?

[DarkGuard]

What about adding them to sternguard squads to increase the anti-infantry power?

 

Again same problem, as plasma cannons are still cheaper than they are in Devs. The main reason why I would put heavy bolters in Devs is that they are cheaper than plasma cannons (which are ridiculously) expensive, and en masse they can do a lor of damage. However, I feel two plasma cannons would do more damage than two heavy bolters. Of course, I'm not a big fan of Sternguard Devs, so I'm going to be slightly biased on the subject :D.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

A fair enough point of view, as much as I kind of like the heavy bolter (I just like the look of the weapon and the image of it dakka-ing away in the battlefield) I just feel it doesnt compare, even the scout version gets hellfire rounds! It feels quite lacking as a heavy weapon sadly, even though its free it competes with the powerful multi-melta and ever useful missile launcher.

 

The only way I could see it becoming a better choice is if it got an upgraded profile, or the other weapons got made more expensive. Otherwise its almost redudant which is kind of sad to see really...